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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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I think you actually are onto something a bit here. As much jank as those older games can have, there's no denying that level of cleverness when we figure out ways to break/exploit systems to our benefit. I think part of what a lot of people ask about here when they come up with their plans to overcome huge odds in PDX games reinforce a lot of that "I feel clever" which is certainly a fun feeling.
Oh, absolutely. Turboimmigration Uruguay made no sense whatsoever but it was great fun.

That being said, I have no doubt whatsoever that whatever this combat system turns out to be, there will be ways to exploit it and feel clever. That's true of any even vaguely complex combat system, really.
 
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It's really funny to see some people enjoying the news of the downgrade of warfare from the previous game. Notice there are no units on the world map. I thought they didn't add warfare yet but its my nightmare come true. That means its heavily abstracted obviously. Like a game of risk. Instead of improving on the imperfect system. They change it completely to be automated like hoi4 but you don't get the option to micro? Some people like micro. Some don't. Don't act like people don't like micro at all.

Downvote me all you want Redditors! This will not change the fact that warfare will be less complex than Victoria 2's system. Victoria 2 worked best when both the economy and warfare were reasonably balanced in complexity. Now that war is out of the window and simplified, Victoria 3 will become sim city or a business management game instead of a grant strategy game where everything has roughly, the same level of detail.
 
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I think while it's not exactly proportional, less micro allows for more roleplay and realism. A completely new, abstracted system makes for a better ai, taking away that feeling of player supremacy and therefore creating better roleplay and immersion which is always welcome, abstracting solves the problem of military innovations in a time when combat changed so much that it's impossible to portray it faithfull and it increases realism by making you deal with your generals all of which have different personalities and styles, instead of you just microing everything yourself completely disregarding who you have leading the army. It has been brought up in this comment chain many times, but it's just not realistic for that time to move armies so precisely and it also questions who exactly you are as a player. You're politicians and industrial magnates and they certainly won't influence the operational level. So I think for roleplay, not exactly knowing what your generals do, while worrying about the success of each battle ups the rolelay potential tenfold. But if I look at hoi4 content on YouTube, it seems its players want something completely different. Micro is the soul of that game and vanilla doesn't land itself very well to roleplay. I doubt the players who enjoy hoi4 challenges and encirclements will ever enjoy a vicky3 without operational control. And I think that is fine. Each paradox game has a different playstyle and therefore a different target player base and there are some who just love to micro. The hearts of iron franchise is made for them. In Hoi2 you can micro your army to such a ridiculously detail that it's impossible to really roleplay because it's more like playing StarCraft on a competitive level. You don't have control over your politics and economy. You are the general staff. Hoi4 gives you control over war economy and politics but it's still a strategy game first and an RPG second, where it's barely possible to immerse yourself more than into an esport RTS. But once again, immersion is not the goal for many of these players. I for example whenever I play eu4 single player go for efficiency and cheese. The opposite of roleplay. Mods like kaiserreich tried to move hoi4 more towards immersion and TNO became popular as an entirely storybased version of hoi4 with barely any military action which also irritated and scared away many hoi4 fans. Personally I absolutely adore the roleplay focussed side of tno and I think it is only achievable because it takes away the ability to wage war in many places. If you could, people would instinctively start looking for a way to cheese the game or beat it militarily. I find it genuinely hard to combine roleplay and micro. My most-played game ever is eu4 and for me it lost any roleplay potential because I can just conquer the world as an African OPM because I'm the player. And I like that, because the fun isn't over just because I can, but just shifts to new questions. "can I manage to conquer the world as Ruanda before 1700?,, Or something like that. I imagine this is what it's like for many hoi4 players. The fact that you can stomp the ai isn't a problem, it just rephrase the challenges to "but can I do it while only using artillery?,, And people don't mind losing the ability to roleplay because that's not what their franchise is about. I personally like where Vicky 3 goes but for someone really enjoying hoi4 as a sort of esport, a game that takes away the most enjoyable aspect of their favourite game can't work. No matter how much good points are raised, a game without micro will disappoint what they wanted and they will not buy or enjoy it. I can absolutely understand that. A game taking away the aspects I enjoy most from a franchise would not be a game I enjoy either. But that doesn't mean that going this way is a mistake or bad design. With how big paradox has grown they cannot make games for everyone anymore. Those who lost interest now still have other mostly good games to play. The Victoria 3 Devs decided to radically change their formula from what their company is most known for and this was destined to ruffle some feathers
 
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It's really funny to see some people enjoying the news of the downgrade of warfare from the previous game. Notice there are no units on the world map. That means its heavily abstracted obviously. Instead of improving on the imperfect system. They change it completely to be automated like hoi4 but you don't get the option to micro? Some people like micro. Some don't. Don't act like people don't like micro at all.

Downvote me all your want Redditors! This will not change the fact that warfare will be less complex than Victoria 2's system. Victoria 2 worked best when both the economy and warfare were reasonably balanced in complexity. Now that war is out of the window and simplified, Victoria 3 will become sim city or a business management game instead of a grant strategy game where everything has roughly, the same level of detail.
You know, y'all might get some more sympathy if so many of you did not:

A) Relentlessly, without any evidence whatsoever, assert that a strategic system is necessarily a "downgrade" or "simplified", as if in warfare strategy and logistics was just a trifle one casually tossed aside on to getting around to the Very Important Business of moving counters around on a board.

B) Make sneering dismissals as to the True Fan status of the people you disagree with. "Redditors", for pity's sake. I have thousands of hours logged on Vicky 1 and have been on this board four times longer than you, so johnny-come-lately Vicky 2 fans aren't pulling rank on me, capiche?

C) Making histrionic silly comparisons to mobile games or cookie clickers or SimCity rather than actually engaging with what they've been told about the mechanics - which you know perfectly well will be more complex than that, whether you'll admit it or not.
 
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The devs are trying something new and should be celebrated, if you want the same game over and over again then you've chosen the wrong type of game series.

How, exactly, is wanting the option to directly control military unites the same as asking for the same game over and over again? Warfare was an integral part of V2 even if it focused on industry, diplomacy, and politics. Anyone who has played more than a second of V2 knows this. I highly doubt that if you ask a bunch of V2 players what their fondest memory of the game was, the answer will be min-maxing their industry, fighting of SoIs as Prussia, or having to constantly deal with rebellions. Most of them would, likely, tell you about a war. My most memorable moment, for example, was when we, during a MP game, stacked more than 2 million soldiers in the middle of the alps and waited for years for the battle to end. How that's asking for "the same game over and over again", I have no idea.
 
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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.​

(...)

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

And that is something that hooked me up. Finally a game about running a state!
 
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I think while it's not exactly proportional, less micro allows for more roleplay and realism. A completely new, abstracted system makes for a better ai, taking away that feeling of player supremacy and therefore creating better roleplay and immersion which is always welcome, abstracting solves the problem of military innovations in a time when combat changed so much that it's impossible to portray it faithfull and it increases realism by making you deal with your generals all of which have different personalities and styles, instead of you just microing everything yourself completely disregarding who you have leading the army. It has been brought up in this comment chain many times, but it's just not realistic for that time to move armies so precisely and it also questions who exactly you are as a player. You're politicians and industrial magnates and they certainly won't influence the operational level. So I think for roleplay, not exactly knowing what your generals do, while worrying about the success of each battle ups the rolelay potential tenfold. But if I look at hoi4 content on YouTube, it seems its players want something completely different. Micro is the soul of that game and vanilla doesn't land itself very well to roleplay. I doubt the players who enjoy hoi4 challenges and encirclements will ever enjoy a vicky3 without operational control. And I think that is fine. Each paradox game has a different playstyle and therefore a different target player base and there are some who just love to micro. The hearts of iron franchise is made for them. In Hoi2 you can micro your army to such a ridiculously detail that it's impossible to really roleplay because it's more like playing StarCraft on a competitive level. You don't have control over your politics and economy. You are the general staff. Hoi4 gives you control over war economy and politics but it's still a strategy game first and an RPG second, where it's barely possible to immerse yourself more than into an esport RTS. But once again, immersion is not the goal for many of these players. I for example whenever I play eu4 single player go for efficiency and cheese. The opposite of roleplay. Mods like kaiserreich tried to move hoi4 more towards immersion and TNO became popular as an entirely storybased version of hoi4 with barely any military action which also irritated and scared away many hoi4 fans. Personally I absolutely adore the roleplay focussed side of tno and I think it is only achievable because it takes away the ability to wage war in many places. If you could, people would instinctively start looking for a way to cheese the game or beat it militarily. I find it genuinely hard to combine roleplay and micro. My most-played game ever is eu4 and for me it lost any roleplay potential because I can just conquer the world as an African OPM because I'm the player. And I like that, because the fun isn't over just because I can, but just shifts to new questions. "can I manage to conquer the world as Ruanda before 1700?,, Or something like that. I imagine this is what it's like for many hoi4 players. The fact that you can stomp the ai isn't a problem, it just rephrase the challenges to "but can I do it while only using artillery?,, And people don't mind losing the ability to roleplay because that's not what their franchise is about. I personally like where Vicky 3 goes but for someone really enjoying hoi4 as a sort of esport, a game that takes away the most enjoyable aspect of their favourite game can't work. No matter how much good points are raised, a game without micro will disappoint what they wanted and they will not buy or enjoy it. I can absolutely understand that. A game taking away the aspects I enjoy most from a franchise would not be a game I enjoy either. But that doesn't mean that going this way is a mistake or bad design. With how big paradox has grown they cannot make games for everyone anymore. Those who lost interest now still have other mostly good games to play. The Victoria 3 Devs decided to radically change their formula from what their company is most known for and this was destined to ruffle some feathers
On that point the game is not a game anymore if a gamer cannot achieve something impossible hands on. I have no Idea why should I Play GB, France, US, Prussia, Russia, Sardinia Piedmont and Japan once and never come back to the game again since I am not allowed to be proficient enough to handle an underdog. The abstracted system does not make a better AI but a lazier AI because it plays against itself and not against me.
If you make the same supercomputer with same software play chess against itself, white will always win.
 
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"Impossible" is a loud word. If it's actually impossible, then in a good system you shouldn't be able to achieve it, otherwise it's not so impossible, is it?
Now about "achieve something very hard"... We still don't know almost anything about actual system, so we need to see more details first before stating how much control we will have
 
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"Impossible" is a loud word. If it's actually impossible, then in a good system you shouldn't be able to achieve it, otherwise it's not so impossible, is it?
Now about "achieve something very hard"... We still don't know almost anything about actual system, so we need to see more details first before stating how much control we will have
Achieving the impossible and cleverly breaking the game for the first time (for you) is e core Paradox grand strategy experience.
 
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"A lot of surprising exceptions"

So, in a period where the vast majority of Africa and Asia got colonized or dominated, what are the exceptions? Japan, Ethiopia (for a time), and some buffer states (Persia, Siam). That's ... not very many, and (if I recall correctly) only one of those actually stayed independent by winning a war (... and still got conquered by same invaders 40 years later).

So out of all the parts of the world that Europeans were invading and colonizing, only 1 country was able to actually fight them off (and only temporarily). If you're looking for realism, "it should be easy for the player to win any war as any country" is not the ticket to success.
Some exceptions were also poor newly liberated backwards European countries with no real economy (the Balkan states).

Even most of the nations listed lost their independence during or slightly after the game's duration. Ethiopia to the Italians, Japan to the Americans, and Persia to the British/Soviets. Out of every single nation in the world only three non-Western nations kept their independence largely intact: Siam, Afghanistan, and China. And two of those nations ceded control of their foreign affairs to colonial powers for part of the Victorian era.

I don't believe the devs should make it as difficult to survive as a non-Western nation as it was in real life. But it shouldn't be easy.
 
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Very disrespectful to a vast silent majority of Paradox games players. Who really find those aspects of gameplay fun.
Also making this game exclusive diplomacy/economy simulator deprives enormous amount of paradox fans to enjoy the most dynamic period in History. It would be worse than never developing the game despite public pressure for years to develop the game.
And when I play HoI or Starcraft i find tactical level decisons fun too. And I've sunk hundreds of hours into HoI, and thousands into EU4 and Stellaris.

However, where is the harm in PDX trying a different tack? This is a NEW GAME. Yes, its part of a stable, and yes, it has lineage. Which earlier game, btw, was my entry to PDX games. However, this is also clearly a PDX in-group game, and perhaps it would never have even been made without that new vision. RIGHT from the beginning, the Devs said the focus would be on development, rather than map-painting. It is about trying out different political, social and economic modellings, and seeing what (Possibly comical) results arise. It is looking very much like a model that can even be used educationally.

No, it will NOT be Starcraft, or HoI. But those games will continue to exist, and to be entirely playable - just because there is also a new game called Vic3 will not affect that. I own all PDX games except CK3 - because I personally find CK3 too RPey. It's annoying. But not for many other PDX gamers who enjoy it.

Well, here we have PDX trying out a new model. Perhaps it will not work, either as gameplay or commercially. And then no doubt unit movement will be added to attract a wider base.

However, no-one is FORCED to buy this new game. Are you?

I'm willing to wait to see what the end result is, and if everything they've said so far works, then hell - this game is for me. It might not be for you. Why should it be?
 
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On that point the game is not a game anymore if a gamer cannot achieve something impossible hands on. I have no Idea why should I Play GB, France, US, Prussia, Russia, Sardinia Piedmont and Japan once and never come back to the game again since I am not allowed to be proficient enough to handle an underdog. The abstracted system does not make a better AI but a lazier AI because it plays against itself and not against me.
If you make the same supercomputer with same software play chess against itself, white will always win.
We don't know yet how exactly the new mechanic works, you shouldn't dismiss it entirely until you see it's alternative. You chess metaphor however is completely off the mark. Via supply management and setup et cetera there have to be enough ways to impact the battle beforehand. It would be like engine chess if you and your opponent could set up your boards beforehand in anticipation of what each others' engine would do and that actually sounds quite interesting as a game. Challenging in its own right.
Right now I don't know if this system will satisfy me, but it certainly has an easier position to do so than the old Vicky 3 army system which was completely unable to simulate the enormous progress in technology and the tactical changes it brought with it, as well as the cultural differences in warfare. Abstracting this to front lines is something that solves these problems in advance and makes the game way closer to what really went on in this 99 year period of peace. Throughout most of the game time people didn't want to go to war against an equally as strong nation because they saw what the Napoleonic wars did to Europe. A realistic Vicky 3 is just not a wargame. That doesn't make it a city builder or a capitalism-the-game clone but a somewhat realistic 18th century nation builder and isn't that what we want?
 
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This thread will be TEMPORARILY closed so that the moderators can catch up, please be patient, it will re-open very shortly!
 
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Oh, absolutely. Turboimmigration Uruguay made no sense whatsoever but it was great fun.

That being said, I have no doubt whatsoever that whatever this combat system turns out to be, there will be ways to exploit it and feel clever. That's true of any even vaguely complex combat system, really.
It reminds me a bit of the first XCOM (a game I also loved) when the remake came out. All the dumbing down accusations etc etc as though a cherished strategy of the game wasn't "have a rookie open the door and stun them in the back so they don't die, so you can shoot the aliens inside.

100% agree aspects of feeling clever will still exist.
 
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Thread has been cleaned up, please remember the rules folks! TL;DR: Don't troll, don't feed the trolls, report instead. Don't spam, don't insult other users, don't swear, don't comment on our moderation policy publicly. Constructive criticism of the products is fine, attacking the devs is not. Thread is now open again, but will continue to be closely monitored.
 
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