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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #5 - Production Methods

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Hello again and happy Thursday! Today we will be taking a deeper look inside Buildings to explore Production Methods. These determine the functions of the building, its inputs and outputs, and what employee types it requires to operate.

Many management games let you upgrade a building to increase its efficiency or expand its functionality. In these games, after the upgrade investment has been paid the impact is permanent and nearly always superior in every way to the building's previous functionality. But in Victoria 3 there are no actions without reactions, and novel innovations don't just make buildings better with no side effects. Improving industrial processes over time is to be expected, but in some cases those improvements might require goods as input that the country has scant access to, while others permit the output of a new type of end product at the expense of the old one. As a result, buildings in Victoria 3 require more flexible upgrade paths than what's afforded by permanent, linear, “no-brainer” improvements.

All buildings have several categories of Production Methods, usually between 2 and 5. Only one is active at any given time in each category. Most categories fall into one of these types:

Base: governs the general "tech level" and efficiency of the building, produces goods typical for the building type
Refining: reduces output of typical goods in favor of output of specialized or luxury goods, sometimes adding a special input
Automation: adds industrial goods as input to reduce the building's unskilled workforce requirement
Ownership: determines who owns shares in the building; typically governed by Laws

With the right technologies Food Industries can make Groceries from both Grain (Bakeries) and Fish (Canneries). They can also refine Grain and Sugar into Liquor (Distilleries). With advanced technologies Food Industries can be partially automated, drastically reducing the need for unskilled labor. Simple Food Industries are operated by Merchant Guilds (Shopkeepers), while more advanced and profitable Food Industries are owned by Capitalists who reinvest some of their dividends.

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As one example, an Iron Mine's base Production Method determines if miners use only picks and shovels or if they also use some sort of engine-driven pumping mechanism. There are several different pumping technologies which also determine what fuel is used. The more advanced the pumping mechanism the more deposits can be accessed and the faster Iron can be mined, but the more Coal or Oil is used in the process. With higher tech pumps comes a requirement for more Engineers and Machinists to be on-site to control and oversee its operation. This creates more demand for qualified workers and also opens up a number of better paid positions to those Pops who meet the qualifications.

The revolution in chemical sciences of the era also enabled the use of explosives in mining, which is a secondary Production Method category used only in mines. Once Nitroglycerin is invented, it can be used in mines to generate even more minerals, at the expense of Explosives produced by the Chemical Industry but also with a higher rate of workplace accidents. By researching less volatile Dynamite, even more minerals are extracted at the expense of even more Explosives, with the additional benefit that far fewer workers will blow themselves up on the job.

Once invented, portable Steam Donkey engines can be deployed at mining sites to drastically reduce the amount of manual labor required just for hauling. This costs the building some money in the form of Coal and Engines, but reduces the amount of money they have to pay in wages. Perhaps more importantly it frees those Laborers up to do other work in other buildings if the state is running low on workers. But if wages are already very depressed it might not be a great idea to purchase expensive industrial goods just to increase the unqualified labor pool further, so this might not be a no-brainer decision for a player to make.

In most countries, simple mines are owned and operated by Merchant Guilds at game start. These are small-time purveyors of the goods produced represented by Shopkeepers. Once mines start to industrialize, Capitalists step in to take over ownership. In most cases these Capitalists will come from Shopkeepers promoted to these newly created positions, but some might come from other Pops in the state, even other Capitalists in buildings not quite as lucrative as these new mines. There are fewer Capitalists than Shopkeepers but they draw a higher wage, and more importantly they will reinvest some of their earnings into the country's expanding industry depending on how much profit their workplace is generating for them. As new ideas spread across your society you might be able to make the mining industry publicly traded instead of privately held, and later on in the game perhaps even nationalize them to be run by government bureaucrats or turn them into cooperatives where profit is split between workers.

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Production Methods aren't limited to consuming and producing goods. Government Administrations employ Bureaucrats and Clerks who use Paper to produce Bureaucracy, one of the game's Capacities that let you govern more people and extend more state services to them. Railways consume Engines and a fuel such as Coal to produce both Transportation and Infrastructure, the former which is sold on the market and the latter which allows the state to support more buildings without loss of Market Access. Universities employ Academics that let the state guide research and development of new technologies and ideas. Virtually any kind of currency, modifier, or effect can be produced by Production Methods in buildings and can be applied in a variety of ways to the country, state, or even the building itself.

A basic Government Administration consumes 10 Paper and produces 50 Bureaucracy per fully-staffed level, but each additional level beyond the first adds a +2% Throughput bonus due to economy of scale. This increases both consumption of Paper and output of Bureaucracy, yielding more productivity from each of the Pops that work the building.

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This of course adds a tremendous capacity for modding in new Buildings and Production Methods! Embassies that increase your Influence, but which can also be configured to consume Wine and Meat at state expense to increase the speed at which you Improve Relations? Shantytown Temples that can only be built on coastlines, that consume Fish and create jobs for pops qualifying for the Deep Ones profession, increasing state mortality but also the weekly rate of the global cthulhu_rising counter? We can't wait to see what madness you unleash!

If tweaking multiple Production Methods across several categories on every single building in the game sounds a bit complex compared to linear building upgrades - you're right! Thankfully we've built a number of tools to help with this process. Foremost among these are the Buildings panel, where you can get an overview of all buildings in your country organized by major and minor type. For example you could get an overview of all Rural buildings, or all Furniture Manufactories, or all Ports. If you have buildings of the same type in several different states, you can break it down further to view the individual building. On each level you can see how profitable the building is and adjust its Production Methods. You can even set all Production Methods for a certain building type to a specific setting all across your country with one click.

From the Buildings panel you can get a birds-eye view of all industries in your country and see at a glance how they’re doing financially. You can change Production Methods on an individual building or on all of them at once. You can even expand buildings directly from this screen if you so choose, or click on one to get an in-depth view of its balance sheet and workforce.

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To minimize the requirement for mental math we have also created prediction tools that give you a breakdown of what to expect from choosing a certain Production Method, based on profitability predictions taking adjusted production and consumption into account, and summarizing which new job positions will be created and which will disappear. While it may on the surface seem obvious to just enable the Production Methods that make the buildings more profitable, keep in mind the societal effects as well - are there enough Pops in the state that qualify for the more advanced jobs this new process requires? Will the wage for these new jobs be sufficient to entice those Pops to switch professions? Will you inadvertently create a whole new class of well-to-do Machinists that may have pro-labor union sentiments? Or will the increased profits not lead to higher wages in the building because they're already competitive and fully employed, and will simply result in more dividends for the shareholders which will be funneled into increased luxury consumption? Which you choose might depend on your population’s social mobility, what politics you favor in your country (a socialist uprising may not be in your plans!) and whether you're able to supply luxuries yourself without benefiting your rival. More profitable domestic industries are never bad, but should be far from the only consideration when building your society.

Predictive tooltips will explain the anticipated impact on the building’s Balance as a result of changes in production, consumption, and wage requirements, as well as the changes in employment that could also impact the country’s politics over time. You will also be forewarned if there aren’t enough qualifying Pops to take on any new professions created, as this could limit your industry’s effectiveness.

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That is all for this week. We will return to discussing more economic intricacies later, but for the next little while we'll be exploring domestic politics - starting next week when Martin will be presenting Interest Groups!
 
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The game mechanics of Buildings are all a very interesting challenge for the player, but I do worry it makes writing a competent AI a tall order.
 
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Complex => good
if it is Victoria. That is why we asked for Vicky3 for years. because it was the most complete / complexe simulation of paradox games.
So please, don't be afraid to do the things more realistic, even if it makes it a bit less accesible to everyone.
Fully agreed with Complex => Good for Victoria! We still want to build tools to make the feature accessible and manageable though. You should be spending your time making informed, meaningful choices, not have to crunch dozens of numbers in your head or press 37 buttons to execute on your intentions. In the words of our Product Manager, "complexity is not the same as complicated" :)
 
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Some questions (I am aware that some of these questions will be answered in more detail in later dev diaries, but a simple answer "yes tariffs are in the game" or something like that would already be enough):

1. Are all types of ownership available to all governments, or at least some governments? Or are they locked to certain governments and its all or nothing? For example:


Can I as a democratic republic have my arms industry be nationalized, my textile industry which employs most poor pops be worker-cooperatives and the rest of the economy be privately owned? Basically mix and choose. That is how it is IRL, too. In some countries stuff like electricity or transportation is state owned, while the res tof the economy is privately owned, with some firms being worker-cooperatives.

I fear that such a mixed economy will not be possible, and that worker-cooperatives will be locked behind an anarchist government for example, even though a democratic republic should realistically be able to have them, too. Likewise, a monarchy should be able to have a nationalized arms industry, not just command economies.

It makes sense for anarchies to only be able to use worker-cooperatives as their ownership model, and for command economies to only have nationalized ownership models be available to them.

But these type of models should also be available to other government forms.

2. So are wages actually realistically modeled?


For example, could I as China flood the market with really cheap goods as I have such a big, unemployed population that it depresses wages down, thus reducing the production cost of the good, thus making the sell price of the good cheaper while still retaining a profit, thus outcompeting goods produced in European countries and putting them out of business?

So does having large unemployment depress wages down, while having full employment will drive wages up?

What effects will literacy/education, standard of living, etc... have on this?
Could it be viable to keep literacy and standard of living purposefully down and keep unemployment high (by not building too many buildings), thus artificially depressing wages and thus being able to have an economy focused on exporting cheap raw materials?

Will buildings competing for workers be modeled/is it modeled that workers will quit their current job to move to a job that is higher paid?

Does this mean that making inputs for one type of industry cheaper will result in higher wages for the workers in that type of industry as they can now put aside more money for wages, thus making all the pops start working in that industry, thus starving my other industries of workers, all because I aquired some cheap inputs for a particular industry? This only works if the industry in question has enough employment capacity through buildings of course. So in that csse upgrading the buildings could be bad?

3. Could the same be said for inputs? As in, Sweden has such a large quantitiy of wood that it the wood price in Sweden is much cheaper than in lets say Britain, thus making the production cost of lumber and subsequently furniture be very cheap, thus being able to flood the British market with very cheap furniture and thus outcompeting and putting British furniture business out of business?

4. How can I as a player counteract that then? Can I put tariffs on foreign goods to encourage domestic consumption (unlike how tariffs behaved in Vicky2)? Can I ban the imports of X goods from Y country?

That kinda begs the question of how trade works in the first place. We know that it works via establishing trade routes, kinda like in Imperator: Rome.

But is that unilateral or bilateral? For example, do I need the permission of Austria to be able to open up an import route of Iron and export route of Steel from and to them as Germany (aka bilateral)? Or is it unilateral and I can just do that, thus outcompeting their steel industry without them being able to do anythign about it?

5. I know that its moddable to have automobile factories function as tank factories through a change in production method, but is that modelled in Vanilla, too?
 
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So just to clarify, wages in command economies are still set by supply/demand (with some small input from the player)? That would save on a lot of micromanagement.
A great way to set public wage is to base on a % of the amount of money necessary to buy all the basic need
Like 120% for unqualified workers.
It's a elegant and practical way to set them.
 
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My favorite update for now!
These changes should make for a very lively society. I can't wait to observe it as it evolves. On a dark note, I brace for a fall in administrative efficiency because of a shortage of wood.
I am also very interested in the reports and help panels. Can mods create new help panels? The thing I missed the most in Vic 2 were more reports on how my pops and factories were doing.
 
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If you wanted to keep the merchant guilds in charge, the only real way to improve your productivity would either be to maintain artificial scarcity of the produced goods or focus on acquiring vast amounts of raw resources to ensure they have super-cheap inputs, with the latter probably being the more realistic option. So basically, you could have a huge section of your population making handcrafted clothes from cheap cotton and that would probably be reasonably profitable and employ a lot of moderately prosperous middle-class shopkeepers, but in terms of goods production per head it'd lag behind more industrialized countries.
I always conquer China. :cool:
 
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Does the bureaucratic throughput bonus mean that stacking bureaucratic administration in Vienna will be more efficient than spreading it around the entire territory of Austria-Hungary?

Aka "direct rule from Vienna" will actually be more efficient?
 
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Great dev diary as always but what I want to know is, is it possible to influence other countries with economic warfare? For example, when I am economically superior to a country, will I be able to destroy it's economy and enforce my demands without fighting with my army?
 
I laugh every time I see "anarchist government" or "anarchist state"
Well, anarchist praxis usually ends in either governance through banditry (e.g. Makhnovshchina) or as a failed state struggling between ideological utopianism and pragmatic policymaking (e.g. Revolutionary Catalonia). :p
 
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I laugh every time I see "anarchist government" or "anarchist state"
Since Vicky 3's anarchists will probably trend more towards, say, anarchosyndicalism (your local syndicate looks a lot like local government, and the federation your local syndicate sends delegates to looks a lot like regional/national government) than anarchoprimitivism, it's not quite as laughable as it sounds :)
 
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If I’m playing LF, I want the default to be that the owners of everything are in charge of, well, everything. I cannot emphasize enough how much I loathe the idea of being expected to do literally anything in the day-to-day operation of my economy if I’m playing LF. I don’t want to make these decisions on a case-by-case, regional, state, or national level. I detest the idea.

I want to set internal taxes, external tariffs, and maybe use my monopsony power to nudge the economy. Other than that, I want to let the economy do its own thing. It was one of my greatest loves of Vicky2, that playing hands-off was a viable way to play the game.

Well that's your playstyle. It seems to me that Vicky 3 is shaping up to be a game where you will be disappointed about how economic management works. Again I think if they allowed the player the option to automate changes in Production Methods that would be fine, but I am completely opposed to tying how much control the player has over it to the economic system. They are already doing things to reduce the level of micromanagement the player needs to deal with but it is clear they want the player to have a role in managing their nation's economy.

I don't want to be cut off from being able to fiddle with Production Methods just because my nation happens to be Free Trade (Vicky 3's LF equivalent). All the complexity involved with this system makes for great strategic decision making and being able to mold your economy how you see fit as technology advances. Forcing the player to change economic system just to be able to have full agency regarding Production Methods is just not appealing to me. It also is opposed to the devs own stated preference for making every economic system a viable option for the player and not making one by default better than another.

I understand that you don't find that appealing, I just don't know what to say. It would be nice if it could be modded to allow for AI decision making regarding Production Methods, then there could be mods that overhaul the economic side of the game and allow for you to be able to sit back and have the LF gameplay you want. I just think it is clear that the devs aren't in favor of locking players out of systems that are important to the society building aspect of the game.
 
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I'm glad too see modding and mod integration seems to be something of a priority, however it raises a question in my mind, of how lax the restrictions for achievements will be? Obviously big changes will be out, but will it be more relaxed on the cosmetic front like in older titles, or are we going to see very strict rules like in CK3? It's fine if you guys aren't ready to answer this just yet, just wondering.
 
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Does the bureaucratic throughput bonus mean that stacking bureaucratic administration in Vienna will be more efficient than spreading it around the entire territory of Austria-Hungary?

Aka "direct rule from Vienna" will actually be more efficient?


Good question, this is a bit concerning.
 
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Also, please say that in more laissez faire governments, we’re not making the call on upgrading our factories. I’m already very down on the idea of building them in the first place, but upgrading? Ugh. Leave that to the capitalists! If I wanted to actively manage my economy, I’d play as a communist.
It has already been confirmed in the last dev diary that the player, with some stipulations depending on the type of economy, have an active role in the development of their economy.
 
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Will we be able to use different ownership production methods in different buildings? As in, could I for example nationalize coal, steel, and arms industries but leave the rest private, or as worker coops?
 
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these type of models should also be available to other government forms.
At the moment we're erring on the side of restricting ownership quite strictly, not by government form specifically, but rather by your country's various economic laws. We want the economic laws to feel very distinct and have big impacts on the population, and if we were to permit most of them under all systems this impact wouldn't be felt as strongly. Of course these are balancing decisions and may change before release.
could I as China flood the market with really cheap goods as I have such a big, unemployed population that it depresses wages down, thus reducing the production cost of the good, thus making the sell price of the good cheaper while still retaining a profit, thus outcompeting goods produced in European countries and putting them out of business?
Yes, assuming the main production cost you have are wages, China's relatively large population will help keep that part of the manufacturing expense down. But if you don't have easy, cheap access to the input goods you need you might not be able to sustain manufacturing the goods cheaply enough to compete with countries that use more technologically advanced, less labor-intensive methods. And then of course there's the additional cost to moving product out of your market, which we'll talk about another time.
Does this mean that making inputs for one type of industry cheaper will result in higher wages for the workers in that type of industry as they can now put aside more money for wages, thus making all the pops start working in that industry, thus starving my other industries of workers, all because I aquired some cheap inputs for a particular industry? This only works if the industry in question has enough employment capacity through buildings of course. So in that csse upgrading the buildings could be bad?
Yes, assuming as you say that the industry has large enough capacity to absorb all those other workers, it could put other industries out of business as a result. Of course, since this means the supply of the goods those industries produced will decrease while demand will remain high (or even get higher as the mega-industry pays such high wages that Pop wealth and thereby demand increases overall) this should eventually approach an equilibrium where all industries are utilized to some extent.
As in, Sweden has such a large quantitiy of wood that it the wood price in Sweden is much cheaper than in lets say Britain, thus making the production cost of lumber and subsequently furniture be very cheap, thus being able to flood the British market with very cheap furniture and thus outcompeting and putting British furniture business out of business?
Yes.
How can I as a player counteract that then?
We'll cover that in a future Dev Diary focused on Trade, but there are ways to protect yourself from predatory trade practices.
I know that its moddable to have automobile factories function as tank factories through a change in production method, but is that modelled in Vanilla, too?
We're playing around with some things surrounding civilian factories contributing to the war effort. We'll see.
 
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