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Absolutely. More to the point, it saves pissing processor cycles away on computing the intimate family details and diplomatic deals of several hundred sheiks, beks and tuduns that will almost never be relevant to the player.

Plus it's not as if the crowned heads of Europe were aware of what was going on in the Altai basin at any given moment. Not even the great raids of the 1220s were enough to stir them to action, until they were forced once again in 1241 to confront the threat right on their doorstep.

Perhaps we just need to abandon the dynastic system altogether for heathens and republics, replacing them with more monolithic, EU3 like state entities for speed's sake.

Let the map end 'round Mosul.
 
Absolutely. More to the point, it saves pissing processor cycles away on computing the intimate family details and diplomatic deals of several hundred sheiks, beks and tuduns that will almost never be relevant to the player.

Plus it's not as if the crowned heads of Europe were aware of what was going on in the Altai basin at any given moment. Not even the great raids of the 1220s were enough to stir them to action, until they were forced once again in 1241 to confront the threat right on their doorstep.

Perhaps we just need to abandon the dynastic system altogether for heathens and republics, replacing them with more monolithic, EU3 like state entities for speed's sake.

Let the map end 'round Mosul.

Yes, and then for those who so desperately want to play a muslim nation can buy Jihad-I based on roughly the same model as CK-II but where the christian territories and dynasties are abstracted. Heck, if CK-II is good I might eben buy the Jihad game...

P.S.: This post is serious, though not meant to offend anyone. CK is about the christian dynasties of the middle ages, so other areas in direct contact could be largely abstracted to save resources...
 
I would like the map to cover the same area as the CK1 map without any more bloody provinces.

There's been a development in Paradox games to include ever more provinces with every sequel and while they do satisfy the dark and unnatural cravings of some players for "more detail!!!!" they seldom contribute anything meaningful of either strategic or tactical depth when actually playing the game - their main in-game contribution is increased micromanagement since every game features a large number of items that scale by number of provinces.

Personally, I'm not too worried about number of provinces one way or another. But I think Peter's point that province micro-management can be bland and tedious is well taken. CK2 should be focused on people anyway, not province borders and buildings.

I do wonder, though, if anyone here would be willing to trade their desire for more or less provinces for a deeper and more strategic modeling of provinces themselves. Like, instead of having some sliders and buildings, you have POPs of some sort, not unlike V2 and EU:Rome. Or perhaps a system of combat and seasonal warfare that lets you raid provinces without initiating sieges. Or perhaps even a "mobilization" function called "peasant levy" that, unlike V2, mobilizes your peasants for only a month or two, and their movement is restricted to provinces you own that are contiguous. And instead of just terrain, how about giving provinces both weather and general climate. It would be nice to have bitter winters or rainy springs sometimes.

CK1 was fun, but the provinces themselves ended up being very generic very quickly. Adding more or redrawing boundaries would not have changed that. If they keep the exact same map, and institute some gameplay mechanics that make provinces something other than "generic forest province #39," then we will have a great start on a game.
 
Well , if we could maneuver armies around provinces per day , and if the province is not one homogeneous "mountain" or plain terrain , but instead separated into Mountain Pixels , River Pixels , plain Pixels , ie , that would make for quite an interesting game , since we can chose our own battlefields. However, I foresee two problems : One - Processor Capability . Two - AI Idiocy.

On another note , there are three ways Paradox can tackle Persian problem . The first is that they simply fully include the rest of Transoxinia. The second is that they abstractize Transoxinia. The third solution is to abstractize Persia .

Now , I personally prefer the first solution - I can't see how adding ten to twenty plus provinces will make the game that much slower. It makes for a far more accurate depiction of the Seljuks , the Mongols and the Timurids , and probably will be the reason why , even if you conquer Baghdad, you are going to have to deal with the next Empire emerging from this region . It also will help in getting the Seljuks to properly collapse with one incompetent leader - else we might very well end up with the Shiekdom of Praha lunacy all over again. Plus, it would make an interesting end game goal for a Crusader state . You have Jerusalem . Can you drive Islam into the howling waste of Siberia and Khazakstan within three centuries?

The downside of course , is that some people might feel that the focus of the game would be shifted slightly further away from Europe. However , this is Crusader Kings - the focus here is not only just on European Medieval Dynastic and court politics , but also on the Christian Islam conflict in this time period . The first CK map shows quite a good chunk of the Islamic world , covering it's heartlands in the Magherb , Egypt , Iraq, the Levant , Arabia and Persia . But it did not go far enough to include Transoxinia . And while your European Crusader might not initally care who controls the edges of the Central Asian steepes , one day , three decades from that time , that Empire from Samarkand may be knocking at the door of Crusader Smyrna.....

The Second solution would probably require some additional game mechanics . Theoretically , we could take advantage of the wasteland feature from EU3 and make Bactria/Transoxinia a kind of "wasteland" where Crusaders can't cross . Problem is , we may end up with invincible Persias and Mongols . If I could secure Persia , there is no reason why I can't go one extra step and eliminate the last significant bastion of Islam, economically and Population wise .

I actually like the idea of abstracting the edge of the map with "horde" threats ( such as the Almovarids from Western Africa appearing and overrunning Morocco , and threatening to halt your reconquista) with Super Provinces , but this provinces should be historically ( and even in any alternate history ) be quite low in popuolation wise , or representing major geographical barriers. ( Siberia , Khazak Steeps , Taklamakan Desert, Sahara Desert , perhaps the Ethiopian Highlands etc ) , and where the inability to send an army through is highly justified .

The third solution is quite similar to the second , but Persia was quite a complex region at this time , and abstracting Persia creates HUGE problems in simulating the Seljuks . Without ugly triggered events , in a Sandbox game , a rather small Seljuk Empire centered on Mesopotamia is unlikely to collapse. Worse , depending on how wealthly Mesopotamia is , and how much manpower , I can forsee two possibilities :
1: The Seljuks get rather badly mauled by the Byzantines . Hello theme of Baghdad.

2: The Seljuks are too overpowered , in an attempt to make them stand a chance of conquering the regions they managed to . Plus , because there's no Persia and Transoxina , the Seljuk collapse becomes the exception in most games , instead of the rule , as it should be. Hello Shiekdom of Praha .
At minimum , the Crusaders are a non starter . You'll get badly mauled by either the Fatamids or the Seljuks , instead of facing a hodgepoddle of disunited states that resulted from the weakening of the Fatamids thanks to the Seljuks , and the subsequent Seljuk disintegration.

At the minimum , in most CK2 games , the Fatamids ought to be in almost no position to prevent the conquest of Jersualem when 1100 rows around , while the Seljuks should collapse around that time . The games where this does not happen should be considered noteworthly enough to appear in the Strange Screenshots threads . Then , the real ahistory can begin with regards to the crusades . Failure to accomplish this most of the time would make the Crusades broken in simulation in my opinion .

I don't think we would like a repeat of what happen when EU3 was first released( BBB , and a Crazy Ming Empire) , or when HOI3 was first released ( the Swiss joining the allies in 1941 , and the US in the allies even before WWII begins , or Japan landing troops in Finland) .

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It's not the most elegant of arguments, but after inclusion of Central Asia, India, China etc to the map it sounds peculiar to call the new game Crusader Kings 2 anymore. The weight would be so much shifted outside the Europe. (In the case of and on the time period covered by Europa Universalis it wouldn't be a problem and it wouldn't dilute the name.) How many of the CK players would go for the world conquest anyway? (In the vanilla CK2 muslims aren't going to be playable.)

1)who speaks about addition of India, China etc? Most of rational demands for map's extension usggest addition of Central Asia, which was crucial for Persia, and to cut the map at the gates of China and India.
And concerning the dynastic system.
Either you limit the game just to Europe, or you can include the islamic world (which would be fair IMO), where the main difference was possibility of polygamy.

I don't advocate the inclusion of Persia and Central Asia in order to make it possible to have duke of York and Bukhara, but to make the shahs or sultans of Persia strong allies/enemies of Levantine muslims to prevent ahistorical christian domination of traditionally muslim areas. Crusaders of Palestine attacked Egypt and tried to make alliance with Mongols for some reason. They knew that Palestine borders on more lands than just "Christian" mediterranean sea, and to defend Palestine, they need stronger position in its muslim bordering countries. And central Asia was often a power base or place of origin of many Persian empires
 
Yes, and then for those who so desperately want to play a muslim nation can buy Jihad-I based on roughly the same model as CK-II but where the christian territories and dynasties are abstracted. Heck, if CK-II is good I might eben buy the Jihad game...

P.S.: This post is serious, though not meant to offend anyone. CK is about the christian dynasties of the middle ages, so other areas in direct contact could be largely abstracted to save resources...

then you should cut the game in Armenia and not include those lands like Palestine, Egypt or Maghreb. And rename the game from Crusader to Christian kings.
To simulate the middle East and the Steppes which largely influenced European
politics you either need to do masterpieces of abstracting their power, or include Persia and Central Asia so the games could naturaly flow. It's not about desire to play as muslims (which is not possible), but realism what makes me support addition of Persia and Central Asia
 
I think the purpose of the map should be to represent the provinces the christian states could reastically invade during the crusades era (a little more than the ones they did take, as crusaders may have been more successful or christian states may have attacked other closer muslim targets like the Maghreb kingdoms, but it's hard to imagine crusaders taking whole Persia or southern Arabia). So for me the CK1 map makes sense (I'm not extremely against a little extension, but I don't think it's worth slowing the game with hundreds of new provinces and their lords families).

Then to the map can be added some abstracted systems (meta provinces, boxes, or other particular interface) for neighbouring areas they could eventually have interactions with or that could have had an influence in their wars even if they were not conquerable (ie : one meta province / box for each major out of reach islamic state, where you can see the size of the army that will eventually be sent to help the djihad if their muslim allies on the conquerable map are near to be defeated, and some diplomatic interface to try to convince them to stay home or to attack the levantine sunni if they are chiite).
 
I think the purpose of the map should be to represent the provinces the christian states could reastically invade during the crusades era (a little more than the ones they did take, as crusaders may have been more successful or christian states may have attacked other closer muslim targets like the Maghreb kingdoms, but it's hard to imagine crusaders taking whole Persia or southern Arabia). So for me the CK1 map makes sense (I'm not extremely against a little extension, but I don't think it's worth slowing the game with hundreds of new provinces and their lords families).

Then to the map can be added some abstracted systems (meta provinces, boxes, or other particular interface) for neighbouring areas they could eventually have interactions with or that could have had an influence in their wars even if they were not conquerable (ie : one meta province / box for each major out of reach islamic state, where you can see the size of the army that will eventually be sent to help the djihad if their muslim allies on the conquerable map are near to be defeated, and some diplomatic interface to try to convince them to stay home or to attack the levantine sunni if they are chiite).

But extending the Central Asian portion of the map ( and the way Central Asia is depicted in CK1 is absurd in my opinion ) only entails - what - 20 or more provinces at the very most ? But these 20 or more provinces will be very integral in simulating the threat to the Seljuks from states in Central Asia , provide a secure base for the Il Khantate when it appears and make it possible for the Timurids , or a similar Dynasty to emerge from this region and form an empire , that , were you a Crusader state , would make for a formidable end game challenge for survival .

And if you played very well as the Byzantines ( many Byzantine AARs end up with Persia conquered by the way by 1200 or so in Ck1....) , or as a Crusader state , it'll make for a more realistic end game region to snuff Islam out in and establish a natural frontier for your border.

As it is right now , if I was the Byzantines and role playing , having just taken Bukhara , I would have a hell of a time justifying how I can take Bukhara , but not finish the job well and drive Islam out of the rest of Trans-Oxinia too.
 
We could get by perfectly fine with just this area, minus the shaded parts.

ck2scope.jpg


The pink boxes would be where nomads, Mongols and Muslim revanches come from. It's pie-in-the-sky fantasy to imagine a European Christian state exerting authority anywhere outside this area in this period.
 
We could get by perfectly fine with just this area, minus the shaded parts.

ck2scope.jpg


The pink boxes would be where nomads, Mongols and Muslim revanches come from. It's pie-in-the-sky fantasy to imagine a European Christian state exerting authority anywhere outside this area in this period.

Ok , firstly , the border of this proposed map is right on the very edge of the Byzantine frontiers.

Congrats . Now playing as the Byzantines would be a Cake Walk . Do you know that you've just made the Seljuks a laughable non-threat? Even if the Seljuks start with a freaking huge army , I suspect that the Byzantines will eventually overcome it if the Shiekdom of Praha is not created by such an army - and they are not Gang Raped , but by whom may I ask , as of 1066? ( Besides the Pechnegs) Then , the Byzantines are free to proceed to Pwn the Levant with literally minimal opposition. The 1066 frontier of the Byzantine Empire is EXTREMELY close to the edge of the map .

Let's consider a more realistic situation here . Let's say that you are playing as the Byzantines . You have managed to beat back the Seljuks , or bribe them with your whole treasury on Day 1 . You arrange for the hasty death of your incompetent successor , and now have a decent ruler to hold the Empire together . Without any REAL threat coming from Iran , I suspect that it's going to be a Cakewalk for the Empire to overrun the Levant up to Suez. If the Fatamids collapse into bits ( as they should , since a strong Fatamid means that the Crusades would be absolutely next to impossible . ) And from the Levant , you can overrun that small miserable silver of Mesopotamia.

Gameplay wise , I'm willing to bet that the Byzantines would eat everything you see in this map. Unless you make any Muslim army coming out from this direction as deadly as the Mongols , this is what's going to happen . And if the spawn rate happens too often , enjoy playing whack a Muslim Spawned army every decade or two. :rofl:

As a Crusader , your only threat would be either Fatamid Egypt , or whoever controls Mosul. Take Alexandria and Cairo, and take Mosul , and effectively , the rest of your game would be spent either fighting the Byzantines , or playing whack a Muslim army across Kurdistan.
 
Ok , firstly , the border of this proposed map is right on the very edge of the Byzantine frontiers.

Congrats . Now playing as the Byzantines would be a Cake Walk . Do you know that you've just made the Seljuks a laughable non-threat? Even if the Seljuks start with a freaking huge army , I suspect that the Byzantines will eventually overcome it if the Shiekdom of Praha is not created by such an army - and they are not Gang Raped , but by whom may I ask , as of 1066? ( Besides the Pechnegs) Then , the Byzantines are free to proceed to Pwn the Levant with literally minimal opposition. The 1066 frontier of the Byzantine Empire is EXTREMELY close to the edge of the map .

Let's consider a more realistic situation here . Let's say that you are playing as the Byzantines . You have managed to beat back the Seljuks , or bribe them with your whole treasury on Day 1 . You arrange for the hasty death of your incompetent successor , and now have a decent ruler to hold the Empire together . Without any REAL threat coming from Iran , I suspect that it's going to be a Cakewalk for the Empire to overrun the Levant up to Suez. If the Fatamids collapse into bits ( as they should , since a strong Fatamid means that the Crusades would be absolutely next to impossible . ) And from the Levant , you can overrun that small miserable silver of Mesopotamia.

Gameplay wise , I'm willing to bet that the Byzantines would eat everything you see in this map. Unless you make any Muslim army coming out from this direction as deadly as the Mongols , this is what's going to happen . And if the spawn rate happens too often , enjoy playing whack a Muslim Spawned army every decade or two. :rofl:

As a Crusader , your only threat would be either Fatamid Egypt , or whoever controls Mosul. Take Alexandria and Cairo, and take Mosul , and effectively , the rest of your game would be spent either fighting the Byzantines , or playing whack a Muslim army across Kurdistan.

I see your point but in all CK1 games Byzantines performed poorly. Plus byzantine reign extention of the map does not neccessarily mean that byzantines controlled those territories. Such were the facts in CK1.
 
We could get by perfectly fine with just this area, minus the shaded parts.

ck2scope.jpg


The pink boxes would be where nomads, Mongols and Muslim revanches come from. It's pie-in-the-sky fantasy to imagine a European Christian state exerting authority anywhere outside this area in this period.
tell me this is a joke. Please!

with this range, muslims will either be extremely overpowered in order to stand a chance against crusaders and therefore we have sheikdoms of Lund, Praha and Edinburgh in every game, or it's all christian in the end of every game.
Cuttin muslim, Khazar and Mongol powerbases off the map won't result in nothing else.

here is what I think would be fair and realistic:
ckproposal.gif


Ok , firstly , the border of this proposed map is right on the very edge of the Byzantine frontiers.
the eastern border of that map in Armenia IS eastern frontier of Byzantine empire in 1060's.
There's no place for Seljuks or any opposition east of them
 
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To make map proposals of the East side more clear: which of the numbered areas would you like to be included and which of those should not be Terra Incognita?
(An initial CK map is a bit rotated compared to this one, blue lines mark current borders. I included northern India just to keep the possible new CK2 map rectangular.)

ck2map.jpg
 
I see your point but in all CK1 games Byzantines performed poorly. Plus byzantine reign extention of the map does not neccessarily mean that byzantines controlled those territories. Such were the facts in CK1.

In DV , the Byzantines tend to collapse thanks to Civil Wars PLUS the Seljuk Threat . If the Seljuks and Byzantines signed on a truce at Day 1 , and Arp Arslan and Malik Shah dies , then these successions would be rather easily dealt with .

I also have huge problems with how revolting themes are dealt with in CK . IMO , as long as Constantinople has not been overrun by any other foreign country , ala 1204 , the aim of any revolting Theme governor would have been to crown himself Emperor , not independence . If he did not succeed in that endeavor , he would eventually be crushed. After a 1204 situation , it would be reasonable for the Byzantines to behave like a normal European Feudal State , but before such circumstances , any Civil War would not be wars of Independence for the Principality of Antioch , but an outright attempt to gain the Imperial throne . Alas , this is another thread all to itself.

Irregardless , the original issue was the fact that the map ended at Bukhara . A brief glance at geography and History and CULTURE would reveal that this is a nonsensical place to end the map at . It makes sense to end the map at the Urals , in Sahara , and above the Ethiopian Highlands , and even in the Deserts of Marakan but in the Middle of Transoxinia? Either exclude Transoxinia from the game ( which brings a host of problems regarding simulating Persia , mind you ) , or expand it all the way to the natural frontier of Transoxinia ( Aral to Tashkent to the North along the Syr Darya , Herat , Balkh and Kabul or Kandahar and Hormuz axis to the South ).
 
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tell me this is a joke. Please!

with this range, muslims will either be extremely overpowered in order to stand a chance against crusaders and therefore we have sheikdoms of Lund, Praha and Edinburgh in every game, or it's all christian in the end of every game.
Cuttin muslim, Khazar and Mongol powerbases off the map won't result in nothing else.
here is what I think would be fair and realistic:
ckproposal.gif


the eastern border of that map in Armenia IS eastern frontier of Byzantine empire in 1060's.
There's no place for Seljuks or any opposition east of them

That's very much the boundaries I'm thinking of too. Eastern border cuts down straight through the middle of the Urals , with a bulge pass the Arals encompassing Transoxinia , and then down the Hindu Kush , skirting around the edge of the Dasht e Margo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashti_Margoand Dasht e Kavir http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kavir_desert, ending at a point slightly after Hormuz .
 
To make map proposals of the East side more clear: which of the numbered areas would you like to be included and which of those should not be Terra Incognita?
(An initial CK map is a bit rotated compared to this one, blue lines mark current borders. I included northern India just to keep the possible new CK2 map rectangular.)

ck2map.jpg
1 and 2 - up to the Urals . No further.
3 , 4 , 5 , 8 , 9 , 10 and 13. Maybe a small chunk of 14 too. 8 and 13 below the Syr Darya/ Jaxartes . And perhaps slightly beyond the North bank of the Syr Darya . The Jaxartes has always been a natural frontier to whoever controlled Persia . IIRC , the Caliphate's frontier ran along that region , as did Alexander's empire , as did the Achaemenids . Even Timur's empire did not extend that much pass the Syr Darya , nor did Khwarezm , nor did the Seljuks Empires , all of which controlled Persia during the timeframe , and all of which derived much power from this region.

Timur originated from this region , while the Mongols first invaded Khwarezm and hence the Middle East through here. Whoever controls this region , when there's a disunited Persia , during this time frame is likely to end up controlling Persia too . Whoever unites Persia during this time frame would probably end up controlling this region too, or at least attempt to.

Timurid_Dynasty_821_-_873_%28AD%29.png

File:Khwarezmian_Empire_1190_-_1220_(AD).PNG

File:Seljuk_Empire_locator_map.svg
 
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Seriously, who cares whether the *unplayable* Seljuks / Ilkhanate / Timurids have a 'power base' represented by provinces? What possible advantage does that have over the Seljuk empire being represented in 1066 by an off-map 'magnate' that periodically spawns large armies for the first few decades of the game? I can see a case for adding the rest of Mesopotamia and the area banking on the Caspian Sea, and another entry area in the Arabian Desert, but nothing more.

This model makes it more, not less likely that the Muslim world will be able to resist the encroachments of a Christian player with weird fantasies of creating the 'Dukedom of Kashgar'.