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If I had any influence over CK2's development Muslims would be playable and the map would extend about as far as has been proposed. They aren't. So why so many of you are wedded to the idea of including the whole of Central Asia is beyond me. That is all.
 
"The whole of central Asia"?

Hardly. Rather twenty provinces added to a thousand, to avoid clunky kludges like "Random Muslim Generator Area" on the map.

Yes, the whole of central Asia plus peninsular Arabia by the scope proposed in elvain's post. That looks like far more than 20 provinces.

Once again, we can't play Muslims, so what is the practical difference?
 
Yes, the whole of central Asia plus peninsular Arabia by the scope proposed in elvain's post. That looks like far more than 20 provinces.

Once again, we can't play Muslims, so what is the practical difference?

Well, i was referring to a few provinces near the Aral Sea/Syr Darya. e.g. Samarkand, Tashkent, Bukhara.

And it makes a difference even if you can't play the Muslims (... one of the first mods will be to make them playable, and doubtless the first expansion officially). Besides, it's not Western European Kings.. it's Crusader Kings. As in excursions in to the Holy Land for unholy amounts of loot, slaughter, and piety. Muslims on a little coastal band turn the Crusade aren't going to make for much of a game.

And frankly, for me, every other realm other than the one i am using is unplayable. Doesn't mean i don't want them to have some sort of coherence and gameplay value. Central Asia certainly would. And without looking back at elvain's map, i bet many of the areas he suggested would also be additions that are worth the effort.
 
If I had any influence over CK2's development Muslims would be playable and the map would extend about as far as has been proposed. They aren't. So why so many of you are wedded to the idea of including the whole of Central Asia is beyond me. That is all.

I think that you question was already answered by me and Novea at least 3 times already... only few posts above. Why you aren't able to understand it is beyond me.
 
Seriously, who cares whether the *unplayable* Seljuks / Ilkhanate / Timurids have a 'power base' represented by provinces? What possible advantage does that have over the Seljuk empire being represented in 1066 by an off-map 'magnate' that periodically spawns large armies for the first few decades of the game? I can see a case for adding the rest of Mesopotamia and the area banking on the Caspian Sea, and another entry area in the Arabian Desert, but nothing more.

This model makes it more, not less likely that the Muslim world will be able to resist the encroachments of a Christian player with weird fantasies of creating the 'Dukedom of Kashgar'.

Because playing whack a mole at the edge of the map is not fun or interesting. It's tedious and annoying. Not to mention you'd be talking about realms whose lands are right there. If I have a big army right next door, what magical power is preventing me from walking them over and sacking the town these raiders come from? It's a cheap, lazy way to give a "challenge" to the player. We're not talking about Mongols, whose original homeland is half a continent away and genuinely unreachable by the people of the time, but some Muslim powers who would literally be right off the edge of the map.
 
There is a magic power stopping me , from say crossing from Tashkent or Samarkand to China or Mongolia - two mountain ranges , namely , and a freaking huge desert. There's a magical power preventing me from easily sending an army down into India - the Hindu Kush mountains literally mean Hindu killer , by the way . Marching from Hormuz to Kutch in India would likely lead to the death of most of my army - just ask Alexander.

There's not much stopping me from marching armies into Persia , all the way into Transoxinia , geography wise save a huge load of space. If Khorasan is firmly under my control , Samarkand and Tashkent are within striking distance - rich , tempting loaded cities seating pretty on the Silk Road - even the Fergana Valley , which is probably a good place ( besides Kashgar on the edge of the Silk road) .

Irregardless though , even if Paradox does not include these regions , I'm quite certain that many mods will include these regions , if only for the purpose of simulating the Seljuks and the Mongol invasion better, and to give a real Challenge for a competent, adequately skillful and experienced Kingdom of Jerusalem , or Georgia player , or a Byzantine Empire that decides to conquer the Muslim world to do .

For a player playing as a Christian in Outremer , or as the Byzantines or an Armenian minor , or Georgia , adding more depth to the Muslim world ( province wise) would give them a far greater challenge , from a game play perspective . Let's face it . Read any successful Byzantine AAR. If the player choses to focus on the East , you can , if you want to , conquer Baghdad in about 100 years or slightly more game time ( and even much less if you are lucky enough , or good enough). If the map ends there , then what ? Whack a Muslim Spawn army and hunker down for the Mongols 100 years later? Turn your attention west? But include Persia , and include Transoxinia , which was very much considered an extension of Persia during this time period , and you still have a significant challenge . The challenge from the East wouldn't be truly over until you drive Islam out , not merely out of Persia , but also out of Transoxinia. While going west , you have to watch your back in the East and seriously pray that someone doesn't form Seljuk Mk2 before the Mongols.

You've defeated the Il Khantate , and forced a white peace as the Byzantines ? If , by 1220 plus , Persia is still not yours , you still have a Mongol menace seating at your border in Persia - and it ain't truly over until it collapses to bits , or you push it out of the edge of the map . If Transoxinia is added fully , the edge of the map will make sense . Right now , if I threw the Mongols out of Bukhara , and they're still receiving reinforcements from Samarkand ( check the CK Mongol event file - it's a real event ) , so close by , what's stopping me , from a role play perspective , from marching on to Samarkand , and putting the Tian Shan and Pamirs between me and those dammed Mongols?

From a historical perspective , it makes even more sense , since these places were culturally , economically , and very much politically as well as Militarily involved and PART of the Muslim world of the Near East , even to the shores of the Mediterranean . Yes , this is a game centered on Europe , but it also a game centered on Crusades . If the Muslims are nerfed in this game ( especially to the point of slicing of all of Persia) , why call this Crusaders King ? We might as well call it Europa Universalis : Medieval in the same vein as Europe Universalis: Rome.
 
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So just because you want to conquer lands in the East the map has to be expanded to areas that saw now European involvement since the Seleucids ?

The current CK1 map, doesn't 'cut off' half of Persia and it also covers most of Central Asia, which makes in IMHO just fine.

There are other ways to make the Muslims stronger then by just adding provinces to them. If you play the Byzantines the game should give you so many problems at home, in the Balkans, in Anatolia, in Syria, in Mesopotamia and Armenia that Central Asia should be almost unconquerable.
 
1 and 2 - up to the Urals . No further.
3 , 4 , 5 , 8 , 9 , 10 and 13. Maybe a small chunk of 14 too. 8 and 13 below the Syr Darya/ Jaxartes . And perhaps slightly beyond the North bank of the Syr Darya . The Jaxartes has always been a natural frontier to whoever controlled Persia . IIRC , the Caliphate's frontier ran along that region , as did Alexander's empire , as did the Achaemenids . Even Timur's empire did not extend that much pass the Syr Darya , nor did Khwarezm , nor did the Seljuks Empires , all of which controlled Persia during the timeframe , and all of which derived much power from this region.

Timur originated from this region , while the Mongols first invaded Khwarezm and hence the Middle East through here. Whoever controls this region , when there's a disunited Persia , during this time frame is likely to end up controlling Persia too . Whoever unites Persia during this time frame would probably end up controlling this region too, or at least attempt to.

I have to apologize, I got the actual CK borders wrong on my first map (I used a trade route map as a template which wasn't accurate in the southeastern corner - should have noticed that Aral Sea (half of it) and Strait of Hormuz are missing). On the new version (lets hope a correct one), orange lines mark now southern and eastern borders of the current and real CK map.

To visualize the scale of the map on the left compared to the size of CK provinces, I added a image of an area between Caspian Sea and Aral Sea (zone no.3), already existing in the game. After compensating for the sea areas, one can argue that sector no.3 comprises approx 10 provinces. Those are one of the biggest provinces one can find on the map - in fact about 5 times bigger than an average (look for comparison at emirates of Mosul and Tabriz below, they have provinces with "a normal size").

Depending on the size of new provinces and possible area of terra incognitas, I would say that your proposal concerning map expansion would add at absolute minimum 25, but more likely about 100-120 new provinces.

ck2mapnew.jpg
 
I still think adding this area don't worth the risk to slow the game with the hundreds of characters living there most players will never have interactions with.

Now to please everyone there can be some simplified systems to have the eastern muslim provinces on the map without eating too much ressources, and also avoiding to create problems with things like far away muslim inheritances (to resume a "less detailed" mode for everything east from Baghdad, with only randomly generated rulers and advisors in courts, no simulated dynasties, no unused courtiers and childs eating process with their education events, no barons, and/or only duke level lords owning several provinces to reduce the number of courts).

Dividing by about 10 the number of characters in new areas should allow to expand the map up to Indian border without big impact on performances (as long christians/detailed levantine muslims don't conquer these lands to create counties everywhere).

Ideally the "fewer details" option would be a flag for some far away kingdoms, so a modder wanting a better simulation of these areas for a muslim or byzantine mod would be able to remove it (or use it for other areas if he makes a mod focusing on one region).
 
So just because you want to conquer lands in the East the map has to be expanded to areas that saw now European involvement since the Seleucids ?

The current CK1 map, doesn't 'cut off' half of Persia and it also covers most of Central Asia, which makes in IMHO just fine.

There are other ways to make the Muslims stronger then by just adding provinces to them. If you play the Byzantines the game should give you so many problems at home, in the Balkans, in Anatolia, in Syria, in Mesopotamia and Armenia that Central Asia should be almost unconquerable.

At minimum 25 . It depends on how detailed it should be . I never really imagined it really needing to be that detailed to the point we need 100+ provinces ( isn't this approximately how many provinces this region has in HOI3 , incidentally?) . For example , while the Fergana valley at the far end of this region arugably could form up to as much as 10 provinces , it can easily be represented as a single province . At the very least , I don't think the map should simply suddenly be cut off at Bukhara . It's extremely artificial for one - it's basically like cutting , say cutting off England northwards of London .

Either extend the map as far as Samarkand ( and preferably as far as the edge of Fergana valley ,) and Tashkent , or leave out this region altogether . Chopping it halfway is extremely irksome , and really doesn't do this region much justice.

Furthermore , Bukhara is not on the shores of the Caspian sea , nor is located south West of the Aral. It's located to the South East .The original CK Map is inaccurate , and rightfully , IIRC , the region in Pink and Green can be represented by a single ( to 3 , depending on how detailed CK2 is going to be ) very high attrition desert province- the Karakum Desert. The number of provinces needed is not as high as projected - the bulk of them would be concentratred along the Amu Darya and surrounding regions , a few on the Upper course of the Syr Darya and maybe one or two in the Feranga valley.

This map shows the situation. Zoom out a little for the big picture.


http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&cp=39.766667~64.433333&style=r&lvl=12&sp=Point.39.766667_64.433333_Bukhara___

If Bukhara is considered too remote , remove the entire Transoxinia ( Bukhara , etc) in the game , and terminate the map at Merv ( Modern Day Mary) thereabouts , or end the map at the Kopet Dag Mountains , which is a natural barrier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopet_Dag . Transoxinia could be fertile development ground for a Muslim Expansion.

The rest of the map ends in fairly reasonable places. Russia ends at the Urals . North Africa ends at the Sahara . The Arabian Desert is not shown . All of these make perfect geographic sense , but cutting the map of at Bukhara , unfortunately does not.
 
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For this period, you need Christendom and Outremer (i.e north Africa and the sections of the middle east accessible from the mediterrenean). For the Christians of the period, that WAS the entire world. You could maybe go as far as Baghdad, given it's importance, but no need to go as far as Persia.
 
Irregardless though , even if Paradox does not include these regions , I'm quite certain that many mods will include these regions

I don't see so much enthousiasm on these regions on the 1st CK and not even the shadow of a mapmod focusing on this region

Irregardless though , even if Paradox does not include these regions , I'm quite certain that many mods will include these regions , if only for the purpose of simulating the Seljuks and the Mongol invasion better, and to give a real Challenge for a competent, adequately skillful and experienced Kingdom of Jerusalem , or Georgia player , or a Byzantine Empire that decides to conquer the Muslim world to do .

world conquer isn't the purpose of this game. Also crusades were to liberate jerusalem not annihilate muslim and crusade is the focus of this game.

about provinces number problem CPU most of us will possess in 2012 will handle CK much more and better

abstraction like it is made for mongols is a good system (even if it have to be improved). it also keeps in a way game balance : seljuks don't need to be more powerfull, they already crush easily byzantines ; don't need more
including these far east regions isn't necessary for now

of course if a future expansion is made focused on muslim world the map should be expanded in these regions to offer enough opportunities to a muslim player but this would be far later as ck2 is planned for 2012Q1... so maybe 2013...we have lots of time to think about it
 
here is what I think would be fair and realistic:
ckproposal.gif


the eastern border of that map in Armenia IS eastern frontier of Byzantine empire in 1060's.
There's no place for Seljuks or any opposition east of them

I would oppose of the border in Nothern Europe. It atleast should be raised so that it gives Sweden a land connection to Finland otherwise Russia would have a lot easier to take it first than what happened in history. I'm not really fearing that they use that map as even the game makers will notice the nothern part to be too small and the land connection is a must. Also that area was fought over by Sweden and Russia in the games time period many times and it would be odd that it would be left out. In CK I you rarely saw Sweden to go for Finland as they had to always do it by sea.

I would say in this case gameplay > realism
 
tell me this is a joke. Please!

with this range, muslims will either be extremely overpowered in order to stand a chance against crusaders and therefore we have sheikdoms of Lund, Praha and Edinburgh in every game, or it's all christian in the end of every game.
Cuttin muslim, Khazar and Mongol powerbases off the map won't result in nothing else.

here is what I think would be fair and realistic:
ckproposal.gif


the eastern border of that map in Armenia IS eastern frontier of Byzantine empire in 1060's.
There's no place for Seljuks or any opposition east of them

I concur. I'm also of the same opinion as far as boarders go. If I had to make a change I would extend the northern boarders more.
BTW: Nice work with the map.
 
Like many have said; more provinces and as Wezqu and .Sparta pointed out, the northern border should be raised. Other than that I'm fairly happy with the CK1 map as it is.
 
I would oppose of the border in Nothern Europe. It atleast should be raised so that it gives Sweden a land connection to Finland otherwise Russia would have a lot easier to take it first than what happened in history. I'm not really fearing that they use that map as even the game makers will notice the nothern part to be too small and the land connection is a must. Also that area was fought over by Sweden and Russia in the games time period many times and it would be odd that it would be left out. In CK I you rarely saw Sweden to go for Finland as they had to always do it by sea.

I would say in this case gameplay > realism

As you note, in a realism perspective, they never walked their armies across through northern Sweden in those days... :p Finland and central Sweden were in a sense closer than northern Sweden and central Sweden, because of how fast sea transport was compared to transport on land through the wilderness.

IMO properly simulating cheap naval transport costs for short distances like 2-3 seazones (as opposed to the opposite problem of an emirate sieging Scotland) would solve such a problem. Presuming it is made sure AI realizes this.

So my only complaint about his map with regards Sweden/Finland is that some coastal and thus easily accessible areas of Finland are excluded.

Disclaimer: This discussion is purely theoretical as I doubt Pdox will make big changes to the map area at this stage.
 
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Okay, I have got to ask a question now that the discussion has become so heated.


Does anybody proposing how finely grained the map should be (number and density of provinces) or which borders it should be within actually believe for even the slightest moment that the limits of the map and the provinces it should contain has not already been decided and to a very large part completed before the game was announced? :D

That's the sort of thing that is normally decided in the design phase, which happens before you announce a game. What is going on now is filling out the details in accordance with the design.

It is fun participating in these "what ifs?" and I have as much fun throwing around my preferences as anybody else, but a few people are acting as if these things are yet to be decided, and that's a scary delusion. :)