Ikko Ikki rebels way too powerful!

[Dogia]

So i am playing as Kono, and start off in a rather large war with hosokawa. Depleting my manpower and my resources. In the middle of this one of my mountain provinces has a revolt of ikko ikki rebels of over 15000 strong. They control one province but somehow can maintain this. I control most of the island i start off on, but i cant even make an army that size. I have to wait and build up my levies before i can make an army able to challenge them in their mountain hide out. I attack and win, finally, but my army of 20k soldiers is cut down to a number of about 3000.

All my nieghbors sensing this declare war, and offcoure i have no chance since i have no manpower.

Whats the logic of making them so very powerful? Absurdly so in my opinion. It only really serves to penalize the smaller clans, who will have no chance to defeat them.

Anyway pissed off rant over.

 

[GShock]

You can take them on with much fewer levies but numerous retinues and ronin in your lines without depleting levy manpower.
Ikko were indeed powerful.

 

[Kyrator]

They are ridiculous imo in my recent game I attacked their 6k stack with my 24k stack and while i won the battle i lost 8k troops while they lost about 2k now they have two provinces with 64k each which i have no hope of taking

 

[Captain Gars]

Ikko-ikkis doesn't appear very often, but when they do they come in great numbers. And this for a reason - when they appeared historically they took over a whole kuni and held it for 100 years. If we change Ikko-ikkis to become regular rebels, that will never happen.

 

[GShock]

The real issue is, as usual, the lack of attrition on the AI, Gars.
Increase the aggressive factor of the Ikko so that they MOVE on the conquest of new Kori and, please, add the attrition to the AI. The latter being not just a solely ikko related problem.

 

[KPJ]

On the plus side, they tend to be totally comprised of infantry. A combined force will have a major advantage, especially if you've increased the shock value of your cavalry.

 

[GShock]

The monks are more powerful than the levy infantry. You need a good general and a strong set of retinue and ronin. They're not a big threat because they don't go on conquering provinces but I really hope they do so with next patch.
Tech buildings surely help, especially cavalry as KPJ said but truth be said the most important thing is to keep the demeasne within the 5 kori limit otherwise you'll have to march all over the map to eliminate these threats that spawn like mushrooms.

 

[Captain Gars]

The real issue is, as usual, the lack of attrition on the AI, Gars.
Increase the aggressive factor of the Ikko so that they MOVE on the conquest of new Kori

Rebels not moving is a design decision, as we wanted to get away from the whack-a-mole feeling. And if rebels would take attrition, an Ikko-ikki stack would just melt away without you haveing to do anything.

and, please, add the attrition to the AI. The latter being not just a solely ikko related problem.

If by AI you mean regular troops, as far as I know the AI take the same attrition as yourself.

 

[GShock]

Rebels not moving is a design decision, as we wanted to get away from the whack-a-mole feeling. And if rebels would take attrition, an Ikko-ikki stack would just melt away without you haveing to do anything.

They should move. If the Ikko revolts do not spread it's relatively easy to counter them, besides they did move and were a very dangerous threat that's why Nobunaga killed every last one of them. I agree they are more of a sect than a real clan (in fact I like this choice when opposed to S2's choice where they are considered a clan) but some sort of connection with rioting Koris spreading to neighboring Koris would be good. If this could be managed by event it would perhaps be even better without requiring changes of design in your original choice.

If by AI you mean regular troops, as far as I know the AI take the same attrition as yourself.

I beg you to check that out, sir, because it doesn't look like they do to me.

I've been besieged by armies in excess of 10.000 in not-so-developed kori without seeing them lose a single man to attrition for many many months. Attrition is very important, we don't have anything else to simulate supply lines. It can't just "work" because I take heavy attrition wherever I go and I rather storm structures when they are still very intact in order to avoid useless losses to attrition. The AI doesn't do so, it waits and waits and waits during sieges but the manpower doesn't decrease. Not possible.
I think we have a parameter to assess the damage of a besieged garrison (I think they should starve more quickly but if this can be edited the problem is solved), but it doesn't look like the besieger has any sort of extra attrition penalty and that's out of a modder's hands.

Might be that given the fact that the AI has many bonuses (i.e. it develops provinces much much faster than the player) its resupply rates overcome the attrition losses and since AI seldom uses levy those are all retinues. Perhaps it's more than a simple "not working" having to do with game balance but I don't know exactly how it happens, all I know is that I am rather sure the losses to attrition are either zero or too minimal to even notice.

 

[chatnoir17]

I beg you to check that out, sir, because it doesn't look like they do to me.

I confirm that the normal AI troop gets the same attrition. Please check the supply limit of the provinces. It is also a key factor whether the army will melt or not.

If you rise the Levy from a province neighbouring the enemy, the enemy tends to rise their levies too, I think.

 

[GShock]

If the attrition really works then it's something else, at this point, having your insight as support I'd go check the replenishment rates.
Given the fact that the AI has unbelievable bonuses with sustaining troops on the field and still generating large amounts of money, it's likely that it's the replenish rates of the retinue and ronins that make the difference. That would explain the losses the AI doesn't take, believe me it doesn't.

We still need a Kori setting to limit the building upgrades. We can't go on besieging every AI Kori with level 5 castles. It takes years, there were no resources to build so many and no need. Same goes with the supply limit affected by agricultural upgrades. All Kori being treated the same, there's no way we can build a campaign without a thousand sieges which, historically, never took place.

As a matter of fact, I insist in saying there's no attrition because I can't see it. There might be in the lines but I really don't see AI losing any troops when besieging my castles. The supply limit can't be working in enemy territory. You are besieging an enemy castle, that province is enemy, you can't treat it like it was yours with the standard supply limit applying. That's something to fix a bit. Not a priority of course... but to me, it looks like the AI suffers no attrition at all.

Figure Uesugi coming with 20k+ troops from the area of Echigo into the area of Kai, it arrives months later still with 20k+ troops. Granted... the AI develops too quickly and too blatantly cheating but if I go there with LESS than 20k+ troops I *do* get the attrition losses.

Check, check, check!

 

[Birken]

Might be that given the fact that the AI has many bonuses (i.e. it develops provinces much much faster than the player) its resupply rates overcome the attrition losses and since AI seldom uses levy those are all retinues. Perhaps it's more than a simple "not working" having to do with game balance but I don't know exactly how it happens, all I know is that I am rather sure the losses to attrition are either zero or too minimal to even notice.

They should move. If the Ikko revolts do not spread it's relatively easy to counter them, besides they did move and were a very dangerous threat that's why Nobunaga killed every last one of them. I agree they are more of a sect than a real clan (in fact I like this choice when opposed to S2's choice where they are considered a clan) but some sort of connection with rioting Koris spreading to neighboring Koris would be good. If this could be managed by event it would perhaps be even better without requiring changes of design in your original choice.

I'm sorry if you get this impression, but this simply isn't true, the AI gets no such bonuses. Non-player characters gets bonuses when playing on higher difficulty levels and the opposite is true when playing on lower difficulty.

They should not move. The rebels seek to liberate their home province and after that they try to spread the revolt to neighboring provinces. Ikko-Ikki rebels try to 'liberate' whole kuni.

 

[GShock]

I'm sorry if you get this impression, but this simply isn't true, the AI gets no such bonuses. Non-player characters gets bonuses when playing on higher difficulty levels and the opposite is true when playing on lower difficulty.

If you guys are positive then I must be mistaken (and I am glad to be). I have a very strong impression that while I as Clan Leader am developing 5 provinces (2 at time) with the other 3 provinces not being affected by the -70% production penalty, I can barely hold on with the expenses while the AI whatever the vassal and whatever number of Kori he owns, has no problems with developing to the maximum possible level in both segments. You would wonder: where do all those resources come from? How can the AI develop everything to the maximum so quickly?
Regardless of this issue, I think it's improper to let all kori be treated the same. You can't build max levels everywhere but if we could have a limiter, we could definitely build the Sengoku scenario according to the historical presence of castles in THAT period.
As of Sengoku Jidai, IIRC the building of the Osaka fortress (it's the only one that comes in my mind right now) took over 20 years of megalithic stonework and expenses to be sustained. Is it possible to give us the chance to mod what we can or can't build in a Kori?
Also, I'd love to see the modding capabilities of Noir tackle with the presence of resources. We could use these both to build a more appropriate economic system AND a set of diplomatic options further adding depth to the game, all of which can be managed through events (IMO the most powerful goodie of the whole Paradox brand is the events).

They should not move. The rebels seek to liberate their home province and after that they try to spread the revolt to neighboring provinces. Ikko-Ikki rebels try to 'liberate' whole kuni.

You mean their presence in a kori will increase the revolt risk in all the other Kori of the same Kuni? That would be grand.

 

[DarthJF]

You mean their presence in a kori will increase the revolt risk in all the other Kori of the same Kuni? That would be grand.

At least in dev diaries it was told to work that way.

The Ikko-ikkis establishing a stronghold also means trouble for neighboring koris, as the Stronghold will try to spread its influence and take political control over the whole kuni (a number of provinces under a daimyo title) by spawning new rebellions around them.

 

[GShock]

I suppose it's not working as intended for I can't see the revolt risk warning icon mentioning the koris bordering the rebellious one (the parchment icon).
Anyway it's just lovely that the DEVs hang in the forums to read and comment the users' impressions and requests. Much appreciated.

 

[Dogia]

I guess i should report that the very game i posted about above was the first game i played where i succeded in becoming shogun. After i had defeated the ikko ikki rebels and then everyone declared war i did rage quit and come and complain about them on the forums. But after a few days came back too sengoku and looked at konos situation and realized that it was not so hopeless. So in a way it was a neat campaign and the ikko ikki rebels do add an interesting challenge to the player. That said i have had a few games as a small clan that had no chance against the ikko ikki, but i guess thats life. Boo hoo

 

[GShock]

i did rage quit and come and complain about them on the forums.

Let's say that more than complaining it's about learning the mechanics which are much harder to grasp than in other games.
On my part I think everyone adding materials to the forum, in a way or another, helps development and this is good for the whole community.
Compliments on your successful campaign.
Now go and try the Genpei mod.