Aurora III (v 6.21) - The Final Frontier - Hosted by Blue Emu

[blue emu]

I've got an interesting question:

If a "ship" is deliberately designed with such small components that it requires no crew at all, does it still suffer morale penalties for long-endurance operations?

What about a "ship" consisting of nothing but a minimalistic sensor, like this one:

Active Sensor Strength: 2 Sensitivity Modifier: 50%
Sensor Size: 0.2 HS Sensor HTK: 0
Resolution: 100 Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 1,000,000 km
Range vs 1000 ton object: 40,000 km
Range vs 250 ton object: 2,500 km
Chance of destruction by electronic damage: 100%
Cost: 2 Crew: 0
Materials Required: 0x Duranium 2x Uridium

Development Cost for Project: 20RP

No engines, no fuel, no life support, no weapons... just an active sensor so small (0.2 HS) that its crew requirements are zero. It could be built in a Fighter factory and carried to the Jump Point in a Boat Bay, then just dropped off in the middle of the minefield. Would this crazy idea actually work?

 

[trajan]

You and Adamus just got ships. Nothing very impressive... Mule class Freighters. But they're the most modern ships in our inventory, so far. Culise got a Colony Ship.

Once we have some warships and some real scouts, everybody can start moving up, of course.

You could even have your character renamed "Doctor Evil", and command the Giant Laser on the moon!

I wasn't complaining about not having a ship, just wanted to get my moon ideas out there. Perhaps we could have 2 moon units, Moon Unit Alpha and Moon Unit Zappa...

And consider this my request to change my character name to Evil Trajan and assume command of the Alan Parsons Project if we decide to militarize the moon.

No engines, no fuel, no life support, no weapons... just an active sensor so small (0.2 HS) that its crew requirements are zero. It could be built in a Fighter factory and carried to the Jump Point in a Boat Bay, then just dropped off in the middle of the minefield. Would this crazy idea actually work?

I've found that Aurora is flexible enough that most crazy ideas actually work.

 

[blue emu]

I've found that Aurora is flexible enough that most crazy ideas actually work.

By George... it DOES show up in the Fighters list.

Outreach class Sensor Outpost 15 tons 0 Crew 2.5 BP TCS 0.3 TH 0 EM 0
1 km/s Armour 1-0 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 0
MSP 0 AFR 3% IFR 0% Max Repair 5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 120 months Spare Berths 0


Active Search Sensor MR1-R100 (1) GPS 200 Range 1,000k km Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

Maybe I'll build a few Fighter Factories, just to test this crazy idea out. Mmmmm... I'll need something with a Boat Bay to carry it out for testing...

 

[Lord Strange]

And once again, the Emu breaks the game

 

[blue emu]

And once again, the Emu breaks the game

It even counts as "a commercial vessel"... a commercial Fighter!... so it won't suffer maintenance failures. I'll have to test it out later.

 

[stamasd]

onder if its worth interrupting our industrial upgrading to build a few labs, and our weapons tech research to study that 5000-point research-speed tech. It would take somewhat more than a year to complete... which (given the +20% bonus it provides) would pay for itself in six or seven years.

Research bonus is usually one of the first things I have my scientists work on after TN tech... pays for itself nicely over the years. I usually aim to have the first 2 research bonuses available within the first 5 years.

 

[blue emu]

January 1st, 1957. We are now nine years into the space age.

The civilian company Wheeler Transport is expanding rapidly. They now have 450,300 tons of ships (two Colony ships, four large and four small freighters) and have set up comet-mining operations on the Comets Wolf-Harrington (4 complexes), Reinmuth (4 complexes), Halley (3 complexes), van Beisbroeke (2 complexes), Encke (2 complexes), Stefan-Oterma (1 complex) and Borrelly (1 complex). Each civilian mining complex counts the same as ten of our Automated Mines... so that`s the equivalent of 40 + 40 + 30 + 20 + 20 + 10 + 10 = 170 Automated Mines. By comparison, we have managed to set up 50 Automated Mines on Comet Faye... although granted, we've had a lot of other things to do as well.

Our weapons research proceeds apace. We now have the three techs that we need to design the most primitive possible Laser, and are studying the next level of Laser Frequency (Infrared => Visible Light). We also have all the techs needed to design a laughably slow and puny missile, and to store it (magazine techs) and to fire it (launcher techs). We even have the crudest level of techs required for Active Sensors, Missile Fire Controls, and Beam Fire Controls, as well as the lowest level of Turret Tracking Speed and Fire Control Speed.

On other research fronts, we will be finished researching the Sorium Scoop-Mining Module in November, and we have made a start on Tractor Beams, which will be needed for Tugs... an auxiliary ship required by both our logistical plans (to tow the scoop-miners out to the Sorium-rich gas giant) and by our weapons program (to tow the orbital fortresses out to the jump points).

Our first additional research lab has been built... it took nearly three months. We might need to build more Factories to speed construction projects before we really start building research labs in any significant numbers.

We now have ground troops (Garrison Battalions) defending our colony on Mars, and just in time. Three months after the troops arrived, our Martian colony reached 10 million people... which is the threshold for revolting if they feel neglected. Our colonists on Mars are not happy about our lack of warships or fixed defenses, but the Garrison Troops can control the situation indefinitely, until we can construct either ships or fortresses.

 

[randakar]

I really wonder if building financial centers isn't a more productive use of our cash and minerals than building auto-mines.
A financial center produces the cash equivalent of of 1 million population. How much cash is that, exactly? How much does it cost to buy the output of a single civilian mining complex? At what point (economic research tech) would it be cheaper to buy the output of these complexes using the output of financial centers than building (automated) mines ourselves?

Sure, at this stage having our own mines helps us ramp up mineral production faster, but I wonder if that is long-term sustainable.

 

[blue emu]

I really wonder if building financial centers isn't a more productive use of our cash and minerals than building auto-mines.
A financial center produces the cash equivalent of of 1 million population. How much cash is that, exactly? How much does it cost to buy the output of a single civilian mining complex? At what point (economic research tech) would it be cheaper to buy the output of these complexes using the output of financial centers than building (automated) mines ourselves?

Sure, at this stage having our own mines helps us ramp up mineral production faster, but I wonder if that is long-term sustainable.

Difficult to say without a thorough analysis. For one thing, the amount of minerals gained by buying the output of civilian mines can vary greatly per dollar spent, because the output purchases are at a flat rate per mining complex, while the actual mineral output that you get in return for your money depends on the number of mineral-types at that mining site, their concentrations, and your mining tech and governor +mining bonus. Each civilian mining complex costs you 250 wealth per year if you buy the mineral output, while if you don't you can tax it 125 wealth per year... a difference of 375 wealth per year per complex. Remember that you must either buy or tax all of the complexes at any specific site as a single group... eg: if the civilian company has six mining complexes on Comet Halley, we can either tax all six for a total of +750 bucks per year or buy all six for a total of -1500 bucks per year, but we can't tax some and buy others. You can, of course, tax the mines on Comet Halley and buy the mines on Comet Encke.

Each financial complex (and each million taxpayers) gives you 20 bucks per year. For example, Earth has 2,848.92 million people and provides 62,676 bucks in taxes. Discount my (governor's) +10% Wealth bonus, and that's 20 bucks per million dudes.

We are currently spending 12.7% of our expense budget totaling -2,975 bucks per year on purchasing minerals from the civilian sector. Tax revenues on civilian shipping, colonists, exports, etc represents 3.1% of our income totaling +2,136 bucks per year. We have an annual budget surplus of +6,600 bucks per year, after all expenses including research, construction, ship building, purchasing civilian minerals, etc. We're currently sitting on half-a-million bucks in the bank.

 

[randakar]

Difficult to say without a thorough analysis. For one thing, the amount of minerals gained by buying the output of civilian mines can vary greatly per dollar spent, because the output purchases are at a flat rate per mining complex, while the actual mineral output that you get in return for your money depends on the number of mineral-types at that mining site, their concentrations, and your mining tech and governor +mining bonus.

That doesn't actually matter though. The output of one complex is the equivalent of 10 mines. It doesn't matter where you put it or what administrator is in charge, does it?
The question is: Does the cash output of 10 financial centers equal or exceed the cost of of buying the output from a single civilian mining complex?

Each civilian mining complex costs you 250 wealth per year if you buy the mineral output, while if you don't you can tax it 125 wealth per year... a difference of 375 wealth per year per complex. Remember that you must either buy or tax all of the complexes at any specific site as a single group... eg: if the civilian company has six mining complexes on Comet Halley, we can either tax all six for a total of +750 bucks per year or buy all six for a total of -1500 bucks per year, but we can't tax some and buy others. You can, of course, tax the mines on Comet Halley and buy the mines on Comet Encke.

So basically you lose opportunity costs - civilian complexes decide where they want to go on their own, but you have control yourself over where you put your pre-built mines.
Then again, what output you buy is also entirely your own choice, so in that sense it's not exactly that you lose anything.
But - if you tax a complex, you basically lose the minerals it produces. They go into the civilian sector and are never seen again.

edit: Oh, and let's not forget the cost of actually getting those mines to their destination. Especially if fuel is an issue ..

Each financial complex (and each million taxpayers) gives you 20 bucks per year. For example, Earth has 2,848.92 million people and provides 62,676 bucks in taxes. Discount my (governor's) +10% Wealth bonus, and that's 20 bucks per million dudes.

Why would you discount the governor bonus? That planetary governor would be there regardless of the financial centers, wouldn't he?
Nor would you discount the governor bonus if you were to put mines down yourselves. BUT .. you also get that bonus on civilian mines, don't you?

Nonetheless .. 20 spacebucks per financial center, makes 200 for 10 of them. Plus governor bonus. Still nowhere near that 370, but we haven't researched any economy boosts yet. Not sure how they stack, but +20% +20% +20% .. tends to add up.

Looking at my (older) aurora installation an automated mine costs 240 spacebucks, plus 120 duranium and 120 corundium. A financial center ALSO costs 240 spacebucks, plus 120 Corbomite and 120 Uridium.
So the costs are basically the same, and the minerals depend a tad on what kind of minerals you find a lot of.

We are currently spending 12.7% of our expense budget totaling -2,975 bucks per year on purchasing minerals from the civilian sector. Tax revenues on civilian shipping, colonists, exports, etc represents 3.1% of our income totaling +2,136 bucks per year. We have an annual budget surplus of +6,600 bucks per year, after all expenses including research, construction, ship building, purchasing civilian minerals, etc. We're currently sitting on half-a-million bucks in the bank.

So right now buying the output makes sense, and we don't need financial centers to support that. I fully agree on that.

However, considering the growth rate of the civilian sector, I know buying these minerals can add up to a rather substantial portion of your budget. So much so that at some point it really starts being worth considering whether the financial center isn't actually really the better thing to build - when your choice starts to boil down to: either tax the civilians (giving them the minerals they mine) and build automated mines, or build financial centers ..
That being said - economy research probably is even better in this regard

Don't get me wrong, I fully support the current policy. I just wonder what happens if the civilian sector's growth outstrips our population growth by a big margin.

 

[blue emu]

That doesn't actually matter though. The output of one complex is the equivalent of 10 mines. It doesn't matter where you put it or what administrator is in charge, does it?

Sure it does.

One civilian mining complex (= 10 automated mines) placed on a rock containing a HUGE lode of only one mineral at 50% purity will give you 50 minerals per year, modified by your mining tech and the rock's governor bonus. That same one civilian mining complex placed on a rock containing moderate amounts of all eleven minerals at 80% purity will give you 880 minerals per year, plus modifiers. But it costs you the same amount of money per year to purchase the output, despite the fact that you get more than 17 times as many minerals for the same price, in the second case.

If the civilian sector's growth outstrips my ability to generate enough surplus income to buy it all, then I start getting selective about which mines I buy into, only investing in those that produce large amounts of minerals (or minerals that I desperately need) and just tax the poorer ones.

 

[blue emu]

We have completed research on the Sorium Harvester Module and designed a Fuel Harvesting Orbital Station.

Exxon Valdez class Fuel Harvester Base 102,000 tons 400 Crew 1876.5 BP TCS 2040 TH 0 EM 0
1 km/s Armour 1-194 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 11 Max Repair 30 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months Spare Berths 2
Fuel Harvester: 39 modules producing 936000 litres per annum

Fuel Capacity 1,870,000 Litres Range N/A

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

Our largest commercial shipyard has expanded to exactly 102,000 tons capacity, just large enough to build this puppy... it helps a lot in your planning if you already know the answer before-hand... and it is now retooling to build them. That will take a while, but there's no rush: we don't even have Tractor Beams researched and a Tug designed yet, let alone launched.

 

[Sirce]

So, you build a harvesting base that requires a tug for harvesting at a gas giant. You should increase the intended deployment time because no way they'll survive 3 months on Tug pull alone. They'll riot before they even get to a gas giant. 3 months is not enough unless you add in a recreational facility, maybe.

 

[blue emu]

So, you build a harvesting base that requires a tug for harvesting at a gas giant. You should increase the intended deployment time because no way they'll survive 3 months on Tug pull alone. They'll riot before they even get to a gas giant. 3 months is not enough unless you add in a recreational facility, maybe.

It only requires a Tug to move it into place. It will stay on station permanently. It's a satellite.

Crew morale will start to drop after three months, but crew morale only affects weapons, reaction time (response to orders in combat) and surveying. These dudes won't be doing any of those things, so the low morale will have no effect on them... except for the combat penalties, but jeeze... they are totally unarmed, unarmored and immobile (no engines). If they end up in combat, they're dead anyway.

This isn't just an exploit... Steve (the game designer) posted on the Aurora website that morale is not intended to affect commercial designs except for surveying and combat.

Our research on Tractor Beams has finished, and our Tug is designed:

Atlas class Tug 55,000 tons 520 Crew 1870 BP TCS 1100 TH 4000 EM 0
3636 km/s Armour 1-128 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
MSP 21 Max Repair 100 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Spare Berths 6
Tractor Beam

200 EP Commercial Nuclear Pulse Engine (20) Power 200 Fuel Use 7.07% Signature 200 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 1,900,000 Litres Range 87.9 billion km (279 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

It's depressingly slow. It is propelled by 20 engines, each massing 2,500 tons. That means that out of its 55,000 ton total displacement 50,000 tons is engine (!) ... and it still can't even reach 3,700 kps.

 

[Rendap]

So, you build a harvesting base that requires a tug for harvesting at a gas giant. You should increase the intended deployment time because no way they'll survive 3 months on Tug pull alone. They'll riot before they even get to a gas giant. 3 months is not enough unless you add in a recreational facility, maybe.

On civilian ships, deployment time is essential irrelevant. I've had Asteroids Miners which were 10 or more years overdue for a shore leave without incidents.

 

[Sirce]

Alright, thanks for the input. Now I can break out my own imposed limit due to misunderstanding the system.

 

[blue emu]

As the civilian sector expands, it gets more and more expensive to purchase all the minerals that their mines produce. Last year we spent about 2,900 bucks purchasing all available minerals from the civilian sector. This year, we spent over 7,300 bucks. This would be worrying if we weren't registering a net profit (income minus expenses) of over +37,000 bucks per year, even after buying all those minerals. Naturally, our mineral stockpiles are increasing pretty rapidly.

 

[cpteveros]

What does the commercial company do with the colony ships? Just ferry colonists to Mars? And will our first warships be laser ones?

 

[TheExecuter]

I don't think building fixed defenses at this stage of the game is worth the effort. We should instead be investing in the resources necessary to develop flexible fleet units capable of dealing with more than one event scenario. We cannot know where all jump points enter the system, so wasting resources on fixed locations in space...rather than fixed locations like bases, is too restrictive, IMO.

If we want to build fixed defenses, they should be priorities at strategic bases, rather than strategic points. If the point is strategic enough, we should build a base nearby.

 

[blue emu]

What does the commercial company do with the colony ships? Just ferry colonists to Mars? And will our first warships be laser ones?

It picks up colonists from any body with more than 25 million inhabitants, and drops them on any body with less than 25 million inhabitants if there is life-support Infrastructure there to support them. I get to collect tax on the trip. Civilian Freighters pick up trade goods (including "free" Infrastructure manufactured by the civilian sector) and move it to where they can sell it on the civilian market. I get to tax both the exports and the shipping fees.

Our Jump-Point defense fortresses will be armed with beam weapons. They will be built as ships, but with no engines or fuel tanks (so they can carry far more weapons and armor than a regular ship). They will be towed into place around the Jump Points by our Tugs, and recycled back to Earth for shore leave and maintenance... so we will need to build some extras, to replace the ones in maintenance or in transit.

Our fleet (and our minefields) will initially be missile-armed.