Development of AoD 1.09?

[bosman]

This is done. Norilsk is set to 2 Metal for now.

Very nice !

There is 6 manpower. This would give germany manpower for 40 divisions after 3 years. This will probably not make that much difference.

With current manpower system it makes indeed a little difference, so let's leave it for now.


What about german forts ? There are lvl 1 on western borders in 1936 GC, which is nonsense, but no forts on east. Kustrin and Koenigsberg should both have at least 2 lvl forts, and Steetin, Elbing, Breslau and Oppeln lvl 1 forts.
BTW, i think, that Poznan and Bydgoszcz deserve 90 or 100 % infra level (prusso-german annexation before WWI).

 

[Pang Bingxun]

There are lvl 1 on western borders in 1936 GC, which is nonsense.

Is it nonsence? I am not unwilling to remove them. But it is a bit tricky to teach AI to build forts in a proper manner with proper priority. Simply having them at the start of 1936 is much more simple.

BTW, i think, that Poznan and Bydgoszcz deserve 90 or 100 % infra level (prusso-german annexation before WWI).

What is about Oppeln? Why should Oppeln have less Infra than Poznan?

 

[Pang Bingxun]

A new set is online.

 

[bosman]

Is it nonsence? I am not unwilling to remove them. But it is a bit tricky to teach AI to build forts in a proper manner with proper priority. Simply having them at the start of 1936 is much more simple.

I tried this: gave Germany "Advanced Construction Engineering" tech at start of 1936 scenario (not that ahistorical), tweaked building schemes a bit and it worked fine. They used to build 3-4 level forts. BTW i added construction bonus for other buildings like infra, IC, installations and bases, which helped them with potential IC deficit. This should IMO be added anyway with proper value.

Second option is to give AI forts via events after ROR, but at the start there should be no Westwall forts.

What is about Oppeln? Why should Oppeln have less Infra than Poznan?

Right, why it even now has less infra than Breslau or other eastern german provinces ?

 

[Pang Bingxun]

BTW i added construction bonus for other buildings like infra, IC, installations and bases, which helped them with potential IC deficit. This should IMO be added anyway with proper value.

So you gave boni for those buildings via the tech 1938 construction, right?
The idea to give germany 1938 construction from the start on and add serials 3 forts for each Westwall province in the starting production queue seems the best solution. Any alternative would screw up things in a worse manner.

 

[bosman]

So you gave boni for those buildings via the tech 1938 construction, right?

Yes, exactly.

Well, first time i tried giving them blueprint with ROR, but it was not enough. So i also added some additional bonus with ROR. Then i canceled that additional bonus and gave Germany blueprint at the start of 1936 scenario so that could be eventually a better option, but rather for human player IMO.

We may also try this: give Germany blueprint from the beginning and in case they are AI controlled, they would get +1 to forts at ROR event. After that they should soon start to build forts.

Ah and not to screw things up (especially to not waste IC), they should start building forts only after 1938 construction isresearched. At least I did so in my testings.

My attention here is mostly focused on forts, but mentioned bonuses would be very handy anyway.

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

Why has Lissabon been made urban? There were many territories/cities with a high population in the AoD map that have not been made urban.

 

[PanssariPanda]

When on the subject of terrain. Is it really justified for Gibraltar to be mountains? I would think hills would be somewhat more realistic and give Germany a slightly better chance at capturing it.

At the moment its an impossible task to do against an Allied player who knows what his doing, unless you have total control of the seas and the skies. Considering its meant to represent a very small area with just one town and a big rock, its a bit overkill for it to be mountains on top of everything else. Even if just hilly, its still incredibly defensible position, but its far better than it being mountains.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

The mountain seems quite appropriate. Hills are taken rather easily, Gibraltar is not taken at the same ease.

Why has Lissabon been made urban? There were many territories/cities with a high population in the AoD map that have not been made urban.

Lissabon has quite some characteristics of being urban beginning in the 1930ies. Where should one draw the the line between urban or not urban?

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

The mountain seems quite appropriate. Hills are taken rather easily, Gibraltar is not taken at the same ease.

Well my annoyance about Gibraltar, and with the AoD logistical system as a whole, is that it is just too easy and ridiculous. I was able to supply 150+ divisions all in Gibraltar. Germany had ~200 divisions in Seville and Malaga. Also seeing 30+ oiled based German divisions being able to move into North Africa with ease, and hearing someone say thy were able to use 100 divisions in North Africa just baffles me.

Lissabon has quite some characteristics of being urban beginning in the 1930ies. Where should one draw the the line between urban or not urban?

I would say population density, but given the lack of relevant information at the time and the layout of AoD's provinces, that would be quite hard. I would just say a minimum amount of population should be the line.

EDIT: Population statistics for:
* USA with population density
* According to Wiki, Liverpool's population in 1931 was 846,101
* Nanjing in the mid-1930s reached over a million
* According to Wiki, Breslau had a population of 600,000 by 1930. And given the intensity of the siege of Breslau, which lasted nearly 4 months (whereas the battle for Berlin took 2 weeks), there is a historic argument to make Breslau urban.
* Cairo had 1 million people by 1930
* Alexandria's population was 320,000 in 1900, 470,000 in 1947.
* Belgrade had 350,000 people in 1939
* Lisbon had 591,939 population in 1930
* Chongqing had 1 million population in 1949

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Breslau is especially true because Volksturm doctrine is designed for exactly those cases.

 

[PanssariPanda]

The mountain seems quite appropriate. Hills are taken rather easily, Gibraltar is not taken at the same ease.

At the moment, its an impregnable beachhead in Europe, from where the Allies can invade en masse, or tie up a large part of Axis forces. I do not think Gibraltar realistically could be used as a beachhead for 100+ divisions to make an attack on Spain.

And considering you cannot even bomb its facilities to rubble permanently, I think its mountainious terrain is a clear overkill.

Even if its hills, it can only be attacked from 2 directions, 3 if you invest in paratroopers, the defending forces have excellent ESE there with the port and it being coastal province, it has 6 land forts which can be upped to 10 together with AA. Even if just hilly, you cannot take it easily, well, at least not when theres a human organizing the defence.

Taking it would still require germans to invest in paratroopers, heavy air support, artillery(railway even), perhaps mountaineers, but at least it would in theory be possible to take it.

 

[lollibast]

At the moment, its an impregnable beachhead in Europe, from where the Allies can invade en masse, or tie up a large part of Axis forces. I do not think Gibraltar realistically could be used as a beachhead for 100+ divisions to make an attack on Spain.

And considering you cannot even bomb its facilities to rubble permanently, I think its mountainious terrain is a clear overkill.

Even if its hills, it can only be attacked from 2 directions, 3 if you invest in paratroopers, the defending forces have excellent ESE there with the port and it being coastal province, it has 6 land forts which can be upped to 10 together with AA. Even if just hilly, you cannot take it easily, well, at least not when theres a human organizing the defence.

Taking it would still require germans to invest in paratroopers, heavy air support, artillery(railway even), perhaps mountaineers, but at least it would in theory be possible to take it.

Haven't you seen "Das Boot"? Gibraltar was dreaded by Germany. If its too hard a nut to crack, play CORE. Fortifications are mor expensive and artillery bombardment is pretty effective, paired with logistic strike you can hammer Gibraltar before assaulting it.

 

[PanssariPanda]

The assault forces would comprise the Infantry Regiment Großdeutschland, the 98th Regiment of the 1st Mountain Division, 26 medium and heavy artillery battalions, three observation battalions, three engineer battalions, two smoke battalions, a detachment of 150 Brandenburgers, and up to 150 miniature remote controlled demolition vehicles (Goliaths), packed with high explosives.

The planned German Assault Force against Gibraltar, taken from wikipedia.

In AoD, you can throw a 100 heavily armed DIVISIONS with air and artillery support, and the Rock will hold.

I call that bullshit.

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

Haven't you seen "Das Boot"? Gibraltar was dreaded by Germany.

IRL Germany planned to send 1/2 divisions through Spain to take it. He has made his own awesome mod and I think he'll stick to that!

 

[Titan79]

* According to Wiki, Breslau had a population of 600,000 by 1930. And given the intensity of the siege of Breslau, which lasted nearly 4 months (whereas the battle for Berlin took 2 weeks), there is a historic argument to make Breslau urban.

Breslau is especially true because Volksturm doctrine is designed for exactly those cases.

Let me chime in just to say that in my mod I've made Breslau urban especially for the "Festung Breslau" issue. In fact, I've made (a few) other provinces urban in the TP always basing myself on where, historically, a bloody urban battle has been fought.

That's the best rationale to choose which provinces are eligible to be made urban, IMHO.

 

[bosman]

Lissabon and Breslau shouldn't be urban terrain with current size considering the size of their main cities.
But even then provinces like Athens, Brussels, Copenhagen, Lille and Tokyo are more accurate for being urban.

 

[Denniss]

You should really try artillery bombardments combined with logistical strikes. Bombarding cost a lot of supplies so you might want to use attack groups of one art div with three or four non-art divs (for a larger unit supply stock). Having multiple such units you could rotate them into the attack and back out if supply level runs low. This may take long but you should be able to do a lot of infra damage, reducing ESE for the enemy units a lot.

 

[Titan79]

Lissabon and Breslau shouldn't be urban terrain with current size considering the size of their main cities.
But even then provinces like Athens, Brussels, Copenhagen, Lille and Tokyo are more accurate for being urban.

The only thing which puzzles me about Breslau being urban is, in fact, the size of the province. This is why I'd have liked it to be split in two - "Silesia" and "Breslau", so to call them - when news about the development of AoD came out.

Unfortunately, this didn't happen - anyway, I keep thinking it is better portrayed by urban than hills terrain given the extremely long siege and devastations the city endured.

Tokyo, on the other hand, is quite the opposite case. Its backbone was made of wooden - not concrete - houses. Just the industrial part of it could be considered the same "softness" of a typical European city. This is also very well shown by the insane number of casualties the Americans did when they bombed it with incendiary ordnance in 1945 (about 100k victims).

Thus, it is well likely that a city of this kind wouldn't have offered the same level of protection for the defending troops as e.g. Berlin, Stalingrad, Minsk etc.

About the other cities you've listed: well, sure, as I just wrote almost every big(er) European city would be eligible for being made urban. But then we'd have a map which would display some 50% of urban provinces... a patent absurdity, of course. Thus my initial suggestion: to base the choice (first and foremost) on where historical urban battles have been fought. In my mod, I've added as urban (compared to AoD 1.08) Brest Litovsk, Sevastopol, Breslau, Vienna and Aachen.

 

[Pioniere]

Lissabon and Breslau shouldn't be urban terrain with current size considering the size of their main cities.
But even then provinces like Athens, Brussels, Copenhagen, Lille and Tokyo are more accurate for being urban.

Lisbon had at time over half a million habitats. In hoi2 it has a population level of 7 one more than Madrid(6) a city that is in fact Urban. Lisbon is City with a lot of stone buildings had also buildings of concrete. I know that Madrid is urban mainly because of SCW.