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I dont understand why is so difficult for some people to accept that many women might have different interests, likes and dislikes, than men. A part of it can be induced by society, I accept that. But only a part of it.
Because it contradicts the Marxist dogma. Agreeing that variety, difference and diversity is natural and should be embraced would leave many authoritarian Marxists in a state of cognitive dissonance which is uncomfortable. Also, research on this topic takes up a lot of time and effort and it requires evaluation from different viewpoints, some of which are also politically incorrect and reactionary. I'm saying this as a libertarian leftist who is searching for answers and had to sort out a lot of opposing views and ideas during my time studying political science.

There's a new cultural war in video games right now and the victims are always the gamers so be very aware of what's going on in video game politics as it might shape the future of gaming, starting from the design and ending with the demographics.

He said seriously, posting on a community message board discussing why there are so few women in their community, without a hint of irony.
Lol.
Such a serious and mature answer. I'm humbled and enlightened by your reply and I will immediately get busy with checking my privileges.
 
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First it was statist vs. anti-statist nonsense forcefully being injected into every thread.

Now it's SJW/cultural Marxism vs. #GG/Reactionism?

Great. :rolleyes:
 
First it was statist vs. anti-statist nonsense forcefully being injected into every thread.

Now it's SJW/cultural Marxism vs. #GG/Reactionism?

Great. :rolleyes:

Well it's a topic about women in Grand Strategy Gaming, what did you think was going to happen? Until we have hard numbers, which we won't, this topic is fair ground for wild speculation. I'm actually surprised it wasn't closed yet, since most moderators on most forums are very trigger-happy when it comes to this subject as they want to protect their organizations from having anything to do with this scandal.

Also I take offence in being associated with "Reactionism" because gamers are mostly a libertarian progressive left-wing mass with some conservative or libertarian right-wing voices. The vast majority of reactionaries wouldn't be playing video games and would very much like to see them banned so they would likely be on the opposite side. Of course, there are 4chan and 8chan type of neo-fascists but those should be examined in another chapter of the story. And then there are the angsty teenagers and those people are basically what gives gaming such an infamous image.

This new culture war is not between left and right, it's between authoritarianism and libertarianism.
 
Also I take offence in being associated with "Reactionism" because gamers are mostly a libertarian progressive left-wing mass with some conservative or libertarian right-wing voices.

I did not call you or associate you with anything, but (mockingly) characterized the two sides with the epithets used by the respective other side.

Might wanna go a little easier on the offense-taking, there.


This new culture war is not between left and right, it's between authoritarianism and libertarianism.

Youtube videos and people arguing about them on the internet a culture war does not make.

Especially if most of the arguing takes place on twitter.
 
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I did not call you or associate you with anything, but (mockingly) characterized the two sides with the epithets used by the respective other side.

Might wanna go a little easier on the offense-taking, there.

Actually I tried being ironic of the outrage culture that's plaguing the Internet but I failed. I apologize, I am not good at subtle humour. :)

My opinion about getting offended by this and that is similar to Stephen Fry's

Stephen Fry said:
“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what."
 
Actually I tried being ironic of the outrage culture that's plaguing the Internet but I failed. I apologize, I am not good at subtle humour. :)

My opinion about getting offended by this and that is similar to Stephen Fry's

Obviously my sarcasm detector is broken :blush:
 
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As a girl i think i can answer this. There's already kind of a taboo towards women playing games. Some people think it's because of sexism in gaming but imo it's mostly people who don't play games shaming others into not playing games, especially other women. When girls do play games it's usually casual stuff because otherwise it makes you seem like a loser and when they get into hardcore games grand strategy is seen as especially nerdy so there's even more of a taboo.

Tl;dr when people find out i play games they think less of me, among people that play games when they find out i play grandstrategy games they think even less of me.

It's rediculous but frustrating and i can see why it turns people away. It's not actually a problem with grandstrategy games themselves.

This sounds about right to me. And this is felt more with games that require a significant time-investment like grand strategy games.
 
People generally play the games that their friends play (if they play any at all). CK II was introduced to me by my friend. We usually tell each other about new and awesome games we have found and we talk about the awesome things we have done in those games. Sometimes we get a bunch of dudes together and throw LAN parties. I haven't heard that girls would do such things with their friends.

So, in conclusion, I think that the gaming culture is just not that spread among girls and thus only the ones who deliberately go out to search such stuff are the only ones who end up here(basically the enthusiasts).
 
As a girl i think i can answer this. There's already kind of a taboo towards women playing games. Some people think it's because of sexism in gaming but imo it's mostly people who don't play games shaming others into not playing games, especially other women. When girls do play games it's usually casual stuff because otherwise it makes you seem like a loser and when they get into hardcore games grand strategy is seen as especially nerdy so there's even more of a taboo.

Tl;dr when people find out i play games they think less of me, among people that play games when they find out i play grandstrategy games they think even less of me.

It's rediculous but frustrating and i can see why it turns people away. It's not actually a problem with grandstrategy games themselves.
This is exactly it. No one wants to be associated with a nerd who sits alone in a basement, staring at a map of Europe and trying to paint it with your color. It's dumb, but many people, especially women/girls, fear that playing these games would make them social outcasts.. so they end up playing Sims and Fruit ninja or something.

But biology definitely also plays a role. Men (In general, of course) think more logically than women indeed, which makes various strategy games, from Heroes 3 to EU3 to Chess, naturally more attractive.
 
In theory, of course the answer is obvious, "only guys like that kind of stuff." But why is that I've wondered? This question occurred to me after I saw the viewership statistics for a video I made about Hearts of Iron IV, 98% male. Hmmm... I wonder why it is? Maybe because history is mostly dominated by male figures...? Maybe this isn't true, but it is what I have so far observed.

The viewership of your video is not necessarily representative of all people interested in HOI4 or paradox games in general. Its not like the community is that welcoming to women (looking through this thread....:sad:) so a woman GSG player might not be as likely to find out about your video and watch it. I am also curious about the 98% male stat, does it exclude unreported gender? If so that would be a useful number to see.
 
In theory, of course the answer is obvious, "only guys like that kind of stuff." But why is that I've wondered? This question occurred to me after I saw the viewership statistics for a video I made about Hearts of Iron IV, 98% male. Hmmm... I wonder why it is? Maybe because history is mostly dominated by male figures...? Maybe this isn't true, but it is what I have so far observed.

Because girls are mostly preoccupied with makeup, cooking, and childbearing.

loljk.

I think that first of all your data is not reflective of the total audience, just gender distribution of people who are so into these games that they watch videos about it. I would be willing to bet at least 15-20% of Grand Strategy gamers are women. Now that's still pretty clearly in the minority, but let's also consider that early modern history isn't well marketable to most women (I would be willing to wager that CKII has more female players than EUIV or HoI III, given the greater and more clearly defined, though ironically vastly more anachronistic, role of women in that game.)
 
Whenever I ask my women gamer friends why they don't play [exceptionally male dominated video game genre] their answer is always the same: The community, the community, the community. Very little, if any, consistent barriers exist over content or mechanics.

It's not just sexist jerks, who we can all acknowledge exist in some capacity, but also well meaning guys who nonetheless make them uncomfortable by responding to a womans' presence with disbelief, wonder, or pedestaling.

This thread has examples of both.

"But women aren't logical like men, so how can we really trust what they say about the community?"
 
But biology definitely also plays a role. Men (In general, of course) think more logically than women indeed, which makes various strategy games, from Heroes 3 to EU3 to Chess, naturally more attractive.

I don't think that's really true. Once you push girls out of "this will make me a loser" mind sets we tend to be about just as into the games and just as good. I've seen this the most playing DnD and Catan since it's easier to remove the stigma if you do it as a group. The few girls I've convinced to play grand strategy ended up liking it a lot too and being pretty good.

Paradox games in particular are really bad for getting new gamers to really get into it. I'm sure we all remember those first few hours of our first pdox game where nothing made any sense and everything was frustratingly hard to figure out. I know I would have never gotten into pdox games if it wasn't for the fact that I watched a lets play and realised it does get a lot more fun later.

A steep learning curve off the bat is probably the second biggest thing keeping women out of grand strategy games imo rather than a nebulous lack of logical thinking.

Also anecdotaly, I tend to see on this guys say they play with their girlfriend more often then I see a girl say she plays on here. I suspect it's because he held her hand through the learning curve so she could actually play the game enjoyably.
 
I think the comments on logical thinking in this thread aren't terribly helpful. Notwithstanding the fact that:
- these differences are likely to be marginal at best at the 'whole-of-population' level, and thus that it's perfectly likely that females with an interest in GSG's are just as capable of having the 'base required logical thinking capacity' to play them (which, I might add, isn't high); and
- the quality of human logic, from either gender, is generally terrible. Further, the quality of logic on these forums (and every other forum I've seen, beyond a specific philosophy forum) isn't great (some individuals are very good, most individuals not so much) suggests very strongly that the base level of logic required to play and enjoy PDS GSG's isn't very high at all!

...it's also worth noting that at the end of the day, logic is only as good as premises, and in theory (if we're going with the brain structure differences angle), while it may be the case that female brains are marginally less comfortable with rigid logical processes, the fact that they're marginally better at big-picture thinking would suggest that the the overall quality of their logical arguments (on average, over the gender) need not be worse and indeed could be better, in terms of the quality of the actual decision making. Ie, narrow premises and perfect logic do not necessarily a good decision make, and sometimes 'fuzzier' logic with better premises can come to an overall more helpful conclusion. Indeed, for large, complex problems with multiple parameters like GSGs (ie, a mess of overlapping premises and conclusions), human brains tend* not to deal with them 'logically' (in the strict sense of the word - and if we're talking logic, using it in the non-strict sense of the word is a little silly), but rather with much broader, fuzzier decision-making.

* I'm not saying that no humans deal with them logically, there are indeed some on these forums that I would expect play very logically - just that most don't.
 
I've yet to meet a woman who had any real interest in history.

I don't know why this is, but there seems to be a general anti-intellectualism among women, with the arts being the only subject they appreciate. These are, of course, just tendencies; you can cherry-pick as many counterexamples as you want, but they don't override the trend.
You can sprout as many uninformed opinions as you want, they aren't transforming to actual statistical facts.

There more women than men in higher education, ie university level in Europe at least and I believe the trend is similar in North-America. Women outnumber men in multiple fields and Arts is actually fairly low on the totem pole. The only two fields in the UK, for example, where men still outnumber women are computer science and engineering. In Australia, the three fields are architecture, engineering and information technology.
http://www.theguardian.com/educatio...y-men-and-women-are-studying-at-my-university
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2012/02/16/the-male-female-ratio-in-college/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/03/06/womens-college-enrollment-gains-leave-men-behind/
http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...enrolling-at-universities-20131124-2y46e.html

And if you think that's only for undergrads, here's a link to a graph showing PhD's:
http://crookedtimber.org/2011/02/04/gender-divides-in-philosophy-and-other-disciplines/

Females make up more than 50% in fields as diverse as Psychology, Neurosciences, Linguistics and English Literature.
 
Well that was a hick-up in the progression of the thread XD
 
Hey everyone!

I really should have posted earlier!

We have both female and male gamers for all our game series and the number of female gamers are increasing on a daily basis.
Our latest games - Europa Universalis IV and Crusader Kings II - tend to have more female gamers than we previously had and it might be as simple as the fact that the games weren't as well known before.

A lot of men and women that have discovered our games through EU4 & CK2 might have played other strategy games before finding grand strategy.
However we can see that both men and women that discovered those games becomes interested in our earlier game series such as Hearts of Iron III and Victoria II.

cheers,
regina
 
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Aside from spying through our webcams (which is why I always dress well when playing Pdox games) how do you know?

Steam stats? If so: gib stats :D
 
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