EU4: El Dorado - Development Diary 1: Nahuatl, Exploration & Treaty of Tordesillas | Page 19

Mikalos · Jan 23, 2015

newtlord said:
So, the dev diary says that completing the reforms will allow you to westernize. Does that mean that these nations will be completely unable to westernize unless they jump through a (completely made up, highly convoluted, and slightly silly) series of hoops? I'm not sure I'm in favor of that.

its already ahistorical for westernization in this period to begin with for all but a few places, i dont see why its bad to actually make you work to reform your state religion that encouraged staying how you were

ehecatzin · Jan 23, 2015

klopkr said:
Are these aztec reformations and doom meter actually based on anything historic or just popculture? Did they ever really sacrifice their leaders?

I think in the case of the Aztecs its supposed to represent everything hitting the fan at the same time, (its not literally Angry Gods coming down with doom) multiple emperors dying, chaos, invading armies, disease, rebel vassals everywhere, yeah I think that counts as doom.

Historically, yeah you could argue that "doom" hit the Aztecs, and after loosing their emperor you got a o/o/o/ emperor with Cuitlahuac, and after he too dies of disease (and not presuing the Spaniards) you finally get Cuauhtemoc with good military stats but by then all your vassals are sieging your capital.

As for the question of whater they sacrificed their emperors, depending on your outlook on history, Moctezuma II was either killed by the Spaniards who didnt find him useful, or stoned by his own people after they got fed up of him collaborating with Cortez.

newtlord · Jan 23, 2015

Mikalos said:
its already ahistorical for westernization in this period to begin with for all but a few places, i dont see why its bad to actually make you work to reform your state religion that encouraged staying how you were

I agree that westernizing in general ought to be harder, but I really don't see how tying it to religion helps anything (sure, all religions attempt to maintain the status quo, but I don't see why the Aztec religion should have done so more effectively than Shinto, Islam, or Siberian Paganism). My real problem, though, is that the "reformation cycle" the devs want the Aztecs to go through before westernization is both without any historical precedent and a form of unnecessary railroading. Why, to pick an example at random, should nations without vassals be completely incapable of westernizing (assuming westernizing is a thing)? I actually rather like the "reformation cycle" as an optional process to remove some of the downsides of the religion, but I don't think it should be tied to technology.

sermaciej · Jan 23, 2015

Will you get CB when someone violates your Treaty of Tordesillas' sphere?

pgroves · Jan 23, 2015

I like the new ToT mechanics, but there is one flaw in them (unless I'm missing something?) - the real ToT didn't allow the Spanish to colonise east of the ToT line, meaning that they weren't allowed to colonise in Africa and most of the far east, but the EU4 rules don't give penalties against later Catholic colonisers in Africa, as there are no CNs in Africa, UNLESS perhaps the ToT in Africa and the Far East is somehow triggered by the first Catholic nation with positive papal relations establishing a Trade Company or something in that TC region? Maybe it could prevent other Catholic colonisers from (or give them penalties for) creating a trade company in that region?

Azurespecter · Jan 23, 2015

The real problem with the Treaty of Tordesaillas mechanics is simply this: Catholicism sucks in this game.

Protestant and Reformed are so much better. There is no good reason to stay Catholic, therefore making this whole system rather worthless. Paradox need to add in some real rewards for being devout Catholic, and better consequences for switching religion. As it is now, it's so easy to switch religion, and the only consequence is a very small relationship penalty. But since even the AI switches away from Catholicism, you always end up on the stronger religious side anyways when the Religious Leagues form up.

Perhaps instead of switching religions immediately, you should have to enable a "Disaster" which puts your country in a religious war for a few years, with lots of religious rebels on both sides (old religion, and religion you are attempting to switch to) and you have to fight alongside the religion you are attempting to establish. Some negative modifiers would include depleted manpower and deserters from your army (possibly even having whole armies/generals dissent to the "old religions" rebel faction).

The key point would then be that any other country can support their religions side in the conflict. Either simply by giving them a "support rebel" type casus belli, or add in some new diplomatic mechanics like "Send Mercenaries" to hire mercenaries which join the rebel armies, or double the effect of espionage actions while a country is in this disaster state.

I think this would make religion in general way more enjoyable. And would really represent the religious conflicts of a nation trying to break away from Catholicism.

grommile · Jan 23, 2015

Azurespecter said:
There is no good reason to stay Catholic,

"I am very large and have the Pope as a vassal. I laugh at other people's Legitimacy problems."

DominusNovus · Jan 23, 2015

Given that you now can get a +10 colonist growth as Catholic, and inflict -20 on 3 of the most likely other colonizers if they try to poke their nose around in your territory, thats a pretty good bonus to being Catholic.

Stolen Rutters · Jan 23, 2015

Ooh, it looks good so far. I already like the new auto exploration buttons, and the dynamic Treaty of Tordesillas looks promising.

klopkr · Jan 23, 2015

ehecatzin said:
I think in the case of the Aztecs its supposed to represent everything hitting the fan at the same time, (its not literally Angry Gods coming down with doom) multiple emperors dying, chaos, invading armies, disease, rebel vassals everywhere, yeah I think that counts as doom.

Historically, yeah you could argue that "doom" hit the Aztecs, and after loosing their emperor you got a o/o/o/ emperor with Cuitlahuac, and after he too dies of disease (and not presuing the Spaniards) you finally get Cuauhtemoc with good military stats but by then all your vassals are sieging your capital.

As for the question of whater they sacrificed their emperors, depending on your outlook on history, Moctezuma II was either killed by the Spaniards who didnt find him useful, or stoned by his own people after they got fed up of him collaborating with Cortez.

I guess that makes sense but is it fitting for the whole of the game? There's several decades of the game at the start with no european contact. I imagine things were pretty different before.

Mackus · Jan 23, 2015

Doom is an interesting idea. Good way to simulate Aztec Empire, rather than annex directly they will vassalize, as they did historically.

there are couple issues I am curious about:

Will doom be tied to religion, techgroup or government type? (should be religion AND techgroup, high techgroup would disable doom for religion that allows it. I don't think one country reforming its religion should disable doom for other countries)
Will Aztec get bonuses to compensate for doom mechanic, so their neighbours won't defeat them?
If Aztec reform, will it change their techgroup? (something like CK2 converter "high american" perhaps?)
Will it be possible to get out of Doom mechanic by converting to different religion? (would make sense, missionaries arriving and preaching catholic/protestant faith should be alternate way out)
Will expansion portray historical case of Aztec vassals like Tlaxcala throwing their lot in with the Spanish? If european power conquers Aztec, their vassals should become subjects of their colonial viceroyalty.

How will doom affect vassals? I assume they will not get doom points, regardless of their size, or will lose accumulated ones along with their overlord when he sacrifices people.

grommile · Jan 23, 2015

Mackus said:
Will doom be tied to religion, techgroup or government type?

As noted in the thread: Doom is tied to being unreformed Nahuatl. When you complete the religious reform process, you get rid of the Doom meter (but you still keep the really quite remarkable bonuses you accumulated during the reform process, making post-reform Nahuatl one of the best religions in the game), and until you've reformed your religion you can't Westernize.

Lemont Elwood · Jan 23, 2015

So I suppose the Andean nations will likely have a unique religion as well. Perhaps Africans, too?

Blackwolfpt · Jan 23, 2015

Wildcat_PL said:
View attachment 122680

Any word about that button? We already have privateer mission so what that might be? Pirate hunters perhaps?

That button is to hunt privateers.

Golladan · Jan 23, 2015

Lemont Elwood said:
So I suppose the Andean nations will likely have a unique religion as well. Perhaps Africans, too?

Nahuatl, Maya, and Inti religions are the only new ones with unique mechanics.

Lemont Elwood · Jan 23, 2015

oblio- said:
Yes, yes, let's add an event to lower Native American province manpower by 80% when they meet Europeans. Permanently.
That sure sounds like fun! (It doesn't.)

Well, why not? Make a map that is absolutely packed with developed native states, and then have the apocalyptic plague cause them to begin to collapse. It would be like a two-stage game, one in which you'd have to first prepare for surviving the coming disaster, and then actually muddling through it.

People here always say they want harder games...

Mackus · Jan 24, 2015

grommile said:
As noted in the thread: Doom is tied to being unreformed Nahuatl. When you complete the religious reform process, you get rid of the Doom meter (but you still keep the really quite remarkable bonuses you accumulated during the reform process, making post-reform Nahuatl one of the best religions in the game), and until you've reformed your religion you can't Westernize.

Not quite what I asked. And you ignored what I said in "()".
Will reformed religion be same religion, but with doom turned off, or it will be "Reformed Aztek" religion?
Latter means doom will be turned off by conversion, so you really would have two separate religions, Old Aztek, and Reformed Aztek, like in CK2.
Alternatively, you could have one religion, but doom being present could depend on more than one factor.
One, is reformation being global, you could have "disable_doom = yes" similar to "disable_papacy = yes" event command.
Second alternate solution, could be tying doom to religion AND techgroup. For country to have doom, it would need to simultaneously have Aztek religion, and "primitive" techgroup like mesoamerican which has techcost penalty of 150%. If country reforms, it would swap techgroup to "High American" which would have smaller, like 50% techcost penalty (and as not "primitive, would have doom disabled"), but keep religion, so there would be no need for separate reformed and unreformed religions.
However, there is no evidence to point to any as being the way they implemented it. I think they will go easiest way and use "disable_doom = yes"

VoiceInTheWild · Jan 24, 2015

Lemont Elwood said:
Well, why not? Make a map that is absolutely packed with developed native states, and then have the apocalyptic plague cause them to begin to collapse. It would be like a two-stage game, one in which you'd have to first prepare for surviving the coming disaster, and then actually muddling through it.

People here always say they want harder games...

A thousand times yes. The emptiness of the New World always bothered me. Still on the EUV wishlist, I guess.

Golladan · Jan 24, 2015

Mackus said:
Not quite what I asked. And you ignored what I said in "()".
Will reformed religion be same religion, but with doom turned off, or it will be "Reformed Aztek" religion?
Latter means doom will be turned off by conversion, so you really would have two separate religions, Old Aztek, and Reformed Aztek, like in CK2.
Alternatively, you could have one religion, but doom being present could depend on more than one factor.
One, is reformation being global, you could have "disable_doom = yes" similar to "disable_papacy = yes" event command.
Second alternate solution, could be tying doom to religion AND techgroup. For country to have doom, it would need to simultaneously have Aztek religion, and "primitive" techgroup like mesoamerican which has techcost penalty of 150%. If country reforms, it would swap techgroup to "High American" which would have smaller, like 50% techcost penalty (and as not "primitive, would have doom disabled"), but keep religion, so there would be no need for separate reformed and unreformed religions.
However, there is no evidence to point to any as being the way they implemented it. I think they will go easiest way and use "disable_doom = yes"

There's no need to have 2 religions. When the Papacy is disabled you don't switch to a different Catholic religion. You stay the same religion, just without the papacy mechanics.

Emiliana · Jan 24, 2015

ChildeR said:
We'll have to see about the CB, but Spain's ideas could use a rethink if that's the case. Or either way, I guess.

i'm going to call it and say that idea is replaced with something to do with treasure fleets.

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