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Fuu

Chair-Speaker of the Integrated Councils of Ksako
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Jan 20, 2013
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In the first developer diary for Stellaris, there was a comment about how the game will adopt some characteristics from 4X stategy games. This got me thinking about how Paradox grand strategy games (like Crusader Kings) differ from 4X strategy games (like Civilization) more generally.

One of the ways that Paradox grand strategy games have stood out to me is in how they offer an unguided playing experience. In Civilization, I am usually trying to build a spaceship, or conquer the earth, because that's what the game tells me I should be aiming to do. I might do it through primarily military, or espionage means, the exact details are different every time, but ultimately I'm shooting for a goal set for me by the game. In Crusader Kings, by contrast, I try and turn Wales into an ethnically pure fortress, just because I can. If I manage it, by whichever criteria I set for myself (this is very important: only I can decide when I am "done" with my mission), then I again decide what it is I want to do next.

I think this is a huge differentiating factor. A game with victory conditions tells you what things you can do, and then you decide how to go about doing them. A game without victory conditions tells you: just play. You decide what to do, and you decide when you're done doing it.

I understand that not having victory conditions can make a game "hard". Sometimes it's good to have structure, and to know what to aim for, especially when you're new. But for example, Crusader Kings trusts the player to make this judgement for themselves. The game might subtly guide you, with a hint like 'how about starting in Ireland and trying to unite the Kingdom?', but fundamentally the game will never set you concrete goals or tell you when you've achieved them. That freedom empowers the player to decide, at all stages in the game - even to decide for themselves if they are "winning" - and is the main thing that sets these games apart for me.
 
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Stellaris is interesting, since the traditional way of calculating how you do in PI games is score, but since the game doesn't have a clear option for an end date, that's kind of pointless. If I run my Empire perfectly for a real life year after conquering the galaxy, what's the point of going on? Yeah, I won the game, but it never ended. Some people just need that bit of closure, you know?

So there should be a way to end the game and have a winner decided, especially if the game will have a multiplayer feature. If it is not score, victory conditions should be available, although all good games like this make victory conditions toggleable by the host.
 
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I'm fine with victory conditions, but I agree that the Civ style ones do tend to kind of suck the variety of the game. Having a stated goal is part of it, but CKII has that with score and it's easily forgotten if that's not your interest in a playthrough. The Civ games have generally been designed around being able to hit the "I win" buttons after a few hundred turns and nothing progresses towards anything else.
 
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I think that just having a score is good enough. Victory conditions just skew the game in order to obtain that goal and looses the focus on the here and now and how to solve the current situation.

As the OP I think that personal goals are more fun and I don't think that a victory condition actually accomplish much of anything but bragging rights. In my opinion personal goals should be the only goal so the focus of the game can be on the actual game and not some arbitrary victory condition. Having no end date just make this type of play even better.

I don't see why you need it in multi-player either, you either concede or you don't or you agree to play until a certain date and simply compare the score.

At least I hope we will be able to turn all victory conditions off so they are optional. Sure you can continue playing after a victory condition is met, but scoring usually end at that time and that is somehow a measuring stick for how well you did, this is simply something I feel are an ambiguous comparison since it all depend on your personal goals along the way.
 
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I think the victory condition is conquer everything. But I would add I would like to add a optional stop date/s
 
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I want to say that for a game like this, more is always better. I should have the option to have a time limit/score/victory condition game, but all of that should be toggleable. It also be cool if there was pure sandbox mode. I'm basically calling that they shouldn't limit themselves in any set way, as I don't think there is a good reason to limit it for any set way.
 
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CK II's Scorepoints are fine with me. I always end up trying to go from Count to emporer..
But since Stellaris is gonna be different, it might be good to add extra goal. Like forming a Federation or wahtever
 
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They could do a victory system similar to HoI3 where you pick a handful of objectives before the start, and then incorporate these objectives with player score.

I also had an idea where they could do a branching victory tree that branches out with new objectives generated based on which ones to previously completed.
 
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Okay... let's say we have a score and no victory conditions... How should the game end? An end date don't make any sense. But the game needs an end.

For a game with open end victory conditions are the best way to make an end date.

I think the victory condition is conquer everything. But I would add I would like to add a optional stop date/s

They already said there are multiple possible conditions. You choose one.

CK II's Scorepoints are fine with me. I always end up trying to go from Count to emporer..
But since Stellaris is gonna be different, it might be good to add extra goal. Like forming a Federation or wahtever


But CK2 has an end date. It will allways end 1453. Stella will not have an end date.
 
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Victory conditions can very easily distract from what would be a much better 'open world' experience. The EU, CK, and Vikky series lacking any true victory conditions or objectives is what makes them so great. Adding in an arbitrary 'I win' button would completely ruin them, even if you could toggle it or otherwise ignore it- as the 'spirit' of the game would be soured.
 
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Victory conditions can very easily distract from what would be a much better 'open world' experience. The EU, CK, and Vikky series lacking any true victory conditions or objectives is what makes them so great. Adding in an arbitrary 'I win' button would completely ruin them, even if you could toggle it or otherwise ignore it- as the 'spirit' of the game would be soured.

Again. EU, CK and Vicky have an end date. The game will end at a special point and you see who got the most points. It don't need victory conditions Stella don't has an end date and because of this need something to end the game.
 
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But CK2 has an end date. It will allways end 1453. Stella will not have an end date.
I couldn't possibly hope to source it- but if memory serves, paradox did a study and found most people never 'complete' a play through in CK- no reason why that wouldn't be different for their other games save HoI.
 
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I couldn't possibly hope to source it- but if memory serves, paradox did a study and found most people never 'complete' a play through in CK- no reason why that wouldn't be different for their other games save HoI.

But a game needs an end. I'm sure a huge part of the players want a game which end someway. It wouldn't be good to have a game with absolutelly no end at all.
 
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But a game needs an end. I'm sure a huge part of the players want a game which end someway. It wouldn't be good to have a game with absolutelly no end at all.
Perhaps some kind of mission chain(s) that promote the occurrence of various events? Ex, as an extremely religious race, we are tasked from the start by the seers to occupy enemy homeworld X and perform a ritual- at the completion of which we either get some lovely bonuses, or accidentally summon Cthulhu?

Or perhaps just overly lofty goals such as 'build three dyson spheres'.
 
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But a game needs an end. I'm sure a huge part of the players want a game which end someway. It wouldn't be good to have a game with absolutelly no end at all.

well maybe we get end-game-diasters wich are extremly hard to survive, or even impossible :) Something like.. "your game ended because life as we kown it ended" or " The AI Revolutions has vansihed intelligent life from the galaxy" Meaning you lost an long endgame War against the Robots.

The game woud end - but you cant win. Woud be something new. :)
 
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Naaa.. its to RL.
 
Okay... let's say we have a score and no victory conditions... How should the game end? An end date don't make any sense. But the game needs an end.

Does a game need an end? The only end in Crusader Kings is the time limit, and I'm not sure that that is a wildly popular feature.

If I've had enough of playing a game, I'll decide to stop, for whatever reason. That seems like the right way to end a game: you stop when you're done. If I haven't had enough of playing, why should the game end? Because I reached some turn limit? Or because some arbitrary achievement, by me or another player, happened?


Victory conditions can very easily distract from what would be a much better 'open world' experience. The EU, CK, and Vikky series lacking any true victory conditions or objectives is what makes them so great. Adding in an arbitrary 'I win' button would completely ruin them, even if you could toggle it or otherwise ignore it- as the 'spirit' of the game would be soured.
I think that just having a score is good enough. Victory conditions just skew the game in order to obtain that goal and looses the focus on the here and now and how to solve the current situation.

These are great points. Victory conditions affect the spirit of the game, and I think part of this is because they drive you to create narrow goals for your civilization. In Civilization, if I aim for a culture victory, I'm skewing my entire civilization towards producing culture points, just because that's "how I win". If I get in a war that's going to destroy me, and start to lose my cities, with everything turning to radioactive rubble, as long as I can hold on long enough to tick over the magic 50,000 culture points, I "won" and the game ends. I think this example shows that victory conditions can shelter you from the consequences of your decisions, because you know you don't have to think about the post-end-game situation! If this happened in Crusader Kings, the game would still be going on after your military defeat and you'd have to figure out how to claw your way back into power from under the heels of the Holy Roman Emperor. Or, just quit and start again; but it's your choice. That's far more interesting to me.

I also think that there are three great things worth mentioning about just having a "score".
1. It's just a number! It doesn't have any strong relation to specific "objectives" in the game.
2. Numbers go on forever! Sure, you can do better than last time, or you can do better than me, but you can never "win".
3. It's easy to ignore! I don't have to check my progress on the leaderboard because there's no threat that the game is going end prematurely by another player beating me to some objective.


Or perhaps just overly lofty goals such as 'build three dyson spheres'.

Even "build three Dyson spheres" has its problems. If you've built two already, I'm going to go to war with you. Why? Because three is the magic number, and I can't let you have three...! That would end the game (for some reason), and so if I'm invested in the game, I'm forced into some course of action that I didn't necessarily have an interest in, just so the game doesn't end.
 
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Does a game need an end? The only end in Crusader Kings is the time limit, and I'm not sure that that is a wildly popular feature.

If I've had enough of playing a game, I'll decide to stop, for whatever reason. That seems like the right way to end a game: you stop when you're done. If I haven't had enough of playing, why should the game end? Because I reached some turn limit? Or because some arbitrary achievement, by me or another player, happened?

YOU stop when you are done. But many players do want an end in their games. Of course the game sjould have some point where it say "Congrats, you finished the game!". Especially if there is multiplayer and people who want to challange each other. Don't let your own opinions decide for other players too much.

Of course a score would be good... but a score is worth nothing without an end date.
 
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I like PI games (and most of all EU series) a lot mostly because I can define my winning conditions myself! I know if I reached my goals as I defined those when I started the game.

So, I like to see that Stellaris does this also possible.
 
They could do a victory system similar to HoI3 where you pick a handful of objectives before the start, and then incorporate these objectives with player score.

I also had an idea where they could do a branching victory tree that branches out with new objectives generated based on which ones to previously completed.
this would be a good way of increasing the difficulty as well.
 
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