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Evidently the two sides of this argument are fundamentally incapable of listening to each other. One side hates the game for precisely the same reason the other side loves it. It doesn't matter how fancy your rhetoric is, it will still never make an impact on the other person. At least we all agree that either way Stellaris will likely be a very good game.

In fairness, I've said quite a few times now that I think the game should have an endless mode just that it should be an option (like Ironman or Hard mode) not the only way to play. I don't think people who play endless mode are bad people just that for the majority of players a more structured mode is a better place to start.
 
In fairness, I've said quite a few times now that I think the game should have an endless mode just that it should be an option (like Ironman or Hard mode) not the only way to play. I don't think people who play endless mode are bad people just that for the majority of players a more structured mode is a better place to start.

The problem is not when a game provides a structured mode that points in certain direction, the problem is when a game is structured to only go in those directions.

I think the Civ series keeps coming up in this regard because every Civ game and spinoff has been designed so that either you win, another player wins, you are conquered, or you have failed to win only because you chose to not hit one of the "You win when you hit this button" buttons. No matter what you do, if the first three possibilities do not occur, then the fourth will always occur. And then you hit the time limit and a score is tallied to force either possibility one or two.

Take SMAC. Don't want to ascend to transcendence? You have run out of other things to build, all bases are set to energy production, you can now hit the economic I win button. Because you built hab domes everywhere, you now have enough population to hit the diplomatic I win button. Everyone has declared war on you and will no longer accept peace, either you destroy them or you endure a forever war.
 
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If I recall correctly the only way to win is to conquer everything. As long as its only the player that can win we should be good.
 
The problem is not when a game provides a structured mode that points in certain direction, the problem is when a game is structured to only go in those directions.

I think the Civ series keeps coming up in this regard because every Civ game and spinoff has been designed so that either you win, another player wins, you are conquered, or you have failed to win only because you chose to not hit one of the "You win when you hit this button" buttons. No matter what you do, if the first three possibilities do not occur, then the fourth will always occur. And then you hit the time limit and a score is tallied to force either possibility one or two.

Take SMAC. Don't want to ascend to transcendence? You have run out of other things to build, all bases are set to energy production, you can now hit the economic I win button. Because you built hab domes everywhere, you now have enough population to hit the diplomatic I win button. Everyone has declared war on you and will no longer accept peace, either you destroy them or you endure a forever war.

What else would you want to see happen though? You go on forever with nothing to do?

Players expect an end. It's fine to let players opt out of that, but it's just a bad move to never tell a player that there is literally nothing left to do in the game. Think about this - You wipe out all your enemies; take over all their territory in a giant cataclysmic war. You figure you must have won the game, right? But the game goes on so you think 'Oh man there must be someone even worse out there...'. So you play on for a while feeling excited. And then you realize you've explored everything. And there's just nothing. Nothing left to do. Well, maybe I mean, maybe there's like wormholes right? So you keep going and going and building but eventually you figure out that the last five hours of the game have been completely meaningless. That you did win but the game didn't say.

Games need logical end points. Advanced players can do their own stuff, play however they feel works well for them, but the core game shouldn't do that. Disappointed is the worst thing you can leave a player feeling. Without any kind of end that's the only way newer players can ever leave.

It means that the only endings are getting conquered or getting bored. There is no win. No excitement, no triumph. Just an endless nothing of space.
 
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What else would you want to see happen though? You go on forever with nothing to do?

In the Civ series, there truly is nothing else to do. In Crusader Kings, I can navel gaze forever. The navel is my vassal. *points downward*
 
What else would you want to see happen though? You go on forever with nothing to do?

Players expect an end. It's fine to let players opt out of that, but it's just a bad move to never tell a player that there is literally nothing left to do in the game. Think about this - You wipe out all your enemies; take over all their territory in a giant cataclysmic war. You figure you must have won the game, right? But the game goes on so you think 'Oh man there must be someone even worse out there...'. So you play on for a while feeling excited. And then you realize you've explored everything. And there's just nothing. Nothing left to do. Well, maybe I mean, maybe there's like wormholes right? So you keep going and going and building but eventually you figure out that the last five hours of the game have been completely meaningless. That you did win but the game didn't say.

Games need logical end points. Advanced players can do their own stuff, play however they feel works well for them, but the core game shouldn't do that. Disappointed is the worst thing you can leave a player feeling. Without any kind of end that's the only way newer players can ever leave.

It means that the only endings are getting conquered or getting bored. There is no win. No excitement, no triumph. Just an endless nothing of space.

If they deliver a game that just surviving is a challenge, where my empire/federation will collapse if I make a mistake/am unlucky, where an ally becomes an enemy because of small betrayals then these become the story. These are the stories I want, the long road to controlling the stars by trade/war/diplomacy is irrelevant.

They can not know when these stories will start or when they will end. And if these stories are not present then we are left with discovered faster than Light travel, explored, fight, control galaxy.
 
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Here what I think the debate is about.

People that want the game to be "endless" just want the game systems and AI to be designed with this in mind so the AI doesn't try to accomplish abritrary objectives that don't make sense in the context of emergent gameplay. It seems they are fine with a mode that has objectives but the AI and gameplay should not be geared towards this. Of course this could make these modes not fun because you won't find the AI trying to compete based on these arbritrary objective.

Those that want the game to end want the game to be designed around around these end game objective. The AI would seek to compete based on these objectives and the player would win or lose against them and get a accompanying screen telling them as such. They are also fine with an "endless" mode. However the AI would be without direction and this mode would not be fun.

I'll admit I'm in the catagorey that prefers the game to be designed with "endless" gameplay in mind. I believe that has more value. Simply as I feel that I can co exist and have relationships with other nations and have better emergent storyline based on national interests rather than meeting game objectives.
 
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Almost nothing of what you said pertains to game design. You can dress it up as patronizingly as you like; that because you are smart enough to create amazing stories for yourself that naturally a well crafted story wouldn't appeal to smart people, that smart people create stories and the process of creation is, of course, infinite. But that's an illusion. Even to the creator, the story ends. It takes time to get there, no doubt, but the story ends. You write the last page. And it's done. Every story ends. Even the Neverending Story has an end. It is directly condescending to say that people who want an end to their games are somehow less because they need a game to tell them where it ends. That's like saying that with your refined tastes you couldn't ever listen to music because it finishes before you want it to.

Here's what makes good stories - Boundaries.

Here's what makes for a good game - Limits.

That's the first thing you learn as a creator. When you have a box you can make the most of it. When you don't you go nuts and make something bloated and unfocused and where the message gets lost.

However you dress it up, however pretentious you try and embellish it; all stories end.

Edit -

Oh and 'trying something new' is literally the same as 'getting bored and starting over'. The language you use makes the former sound nicer but you're talking about the same thing.

Calling someone patronizing, condescending, pretentious, is not an argument. What's this nonsense about smart people, anyway? When did I ever say anything about intelligence? Or even imply that people who don't think along the same lines are dumb? As I recall, I speculated that people who err toward creativity and imagination are more likely to want to play endless games, while people who err toward numbers and concrete things err toward victory conditions. You can attempt to spin that into some kind of arrogance if you want, but you're going to have a hard time of it.

I am here for a civil conversation, and I hope you are too.

The metaphor of the author is getting a little tired, but from how you responded, I'm not sure you understand what I mean. An author's tools are pen, paper, and his or her imagination. A player's tool is the game mechanics, a mouse and keyboard, and his or her imagination.

The author could keep writing. He has a stack of blank paper and his pen isn't dry, but even still, despite boundless imagination and a dozen directions the story could go, he presses pen to paper, places the final period, and calls it done. Perhaps it is time to start writing about pixies instead of vampires. Vampires, he decides, are so 2010.

The player could keep playing. She has a whole galaxy to play with and she has stuff left she could do, events to respond to, wars to wage. The game isn't going anywhere. But even still, despite knowing that there is potentially more to see, she decides this empire's tale has ended, and so she presses escape, and quits to menu, and starts a new game. This time it'll be about a cultural slug race, she tells herself, and everyone will be singing slug songs across the galaxy.

The reason I am trying to point out the parallel here, is because you are conflating playing games with consuming stories, necessarily. Where stories have ends. But I am not doing that, I am conflating playing games with creating stories. And I want you to understand how and why we are not seeing eye to eye. Victory conditions, designed into the game (not their mere presence but their influence on mechanics), take away from the player's ability to craft their own stories. It reduces the toolset. It replaces every wrench and screwdriver and lathe.. with a different shaped hammer. And it tells you that your story, necessarily, will be built with hammers.

Anyway, here's a couple of notes;

* Boundaries are defined in different ways. Game mechanics are boundaries. Game mechanics give limits. The inability to build a planet-destroying death-star in the first turn of a game keeps it entertaining. A victory condition is not required to provide limits to stories.

* 'Trying something new' 'getting bored and starting over' are not the same things at all. One thing is fueled by excitement, the other fueled by a lack of it. We eagerly anticipate change, we look for new experiences, we poke around in the unknown. These are good qualities. And even if that doesn't convince you, I would argue that perspective is everything. You can call them the same, you can accuse me of 'dressing it up,' but at the end of the day, it is whether or not something is enjoyable or not. And I can assure you, I enjoy starting new campaigns in CK2. I enjoy starting new empires in Distant Worlds and Endless Space. These are things I like to do. Take it or leave it.

* I am not the one trying to actively restrict the game.
 
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Players expect an end. It's fine to let players opt out of that, but it's just a bad move to never tell a player that there is literally nothing left to do in the game. Think about this - You wipe out all your enemies; take over all their territory in a giant cataclysmic war. You figure you must have won the game, right? But the game goes on so you think 'Oh man there must be someone even worse out there...'. So you play on for a while feeling excited. And then you realize you've explored everything. And there's just nothing. Nothing left to do. Well, maybe I mean, maybe there's like wormholes right? So you keep going and going and building but eventually you figure out that the last five hours of the game have been completely meaningless. That you did win but the game didn't say.

Games need logical end points. Advanced players can do their own stuff, play however they feel works well for them, but the core game shouldn't do that. Disappointed is the worst thing you can leave a player feeling. Without any kind of end that's the only way newer players can ever leave.

It means that the only endings are getting conquered or getting bored. There is no win. No excitement, no triumph. Just an endless nothing of space.

Sorry for quoting your post twice. There was apparently some ninja posting and ninja editing.

While I think your point is good and a game like the one you're describing would be most unpleasant. However, that's exactly why the Civ games would be most unpleasant without victory conditions, because they, like the game you're describing, is designed to hit a wall.

Maybe there will always be some kind of inherent boundary where you run out of new buildings to unlock, new technologies to develop, but I don't think so. I remember this short story about autonomous, self-replicating battle robocrabs. The robocrabs ended up evolving on their own in cycles and epicycles of giant robocrabs with huge clawpower getting destroyed by maneuverable minicrabs getting destroyed by versatile medium sized robocrabs.

Stellaris probably won't allow for infinite cycles of booms and busts, but we already know there are planned "end game" cataclysms, which are both dynamic, numerous, and surviving/beating is a kind of victory condition in themselves. The neat thing about that concept, is it in no way demands the game be designed around it a handful of specific, known, achievable tally marks.
 
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While I think your point is good and a game like the one you're describing would be most unpleasant. However, that's exactly why the Civ games would be most unpleasant without victory conditions, because they, like the game you're describing, is designed to hit a wall.

Maybe there will always be some kind of inherent boundary where you run out of new buildings to unlock, new technologies to develop, but I don't think so. I remember this short story about autonomous, self-replicating battle robocrabs. The robocrabs ended up evolving on their own in cycles and epicycles of giant robocrabs with huge clawpower getting destroyed by maneuverable minicrabs getting destroyed by versatile medium sized robocrabs.

Stellaris probably won't allow for infinite cycles of booms and busts, but we already know there are planned "end game" cataclysms, which are both dynamic, numerous, and surviving/beating is a kind of victory condition in themselves. The neat thing about that concept, is it in no way demands the game be designed around it a handful of specific, known, achievable tally marks.

The idea of infinite cycles isn't a bad one either (as such) but it's hard to call a totally new society rising on the ashes of the old as being the same game. It's a new game starting from scratch, just set in the same world.

I agree that 'tick the box' endings are a bad thing, typically a sign of lazy development. I'm happy to see that Stellaris is going a different direction than just 'winning'. It's certainly more interesting than 4X games typically end. I like the idea that just surviving is your goal. That's always been a very PDS approach and if they can do it well then it'll certainly be interesting here although my inner cynic makes me hold back from getting too excited. The problem, again, is with new players. If you know what's coming (either through experience of the wiki) then you'll be preparing for the worst way ahead of time. But if it's your first game where you really thrived, really got a long way with your empire and you have no idea what's coming and then just lose because you couldn't ever possibly have known; that's bad. Still, the idea of it is good and I trust PDS to do well with it.

I am here for a civil conversation, and I hope you are too.

Then stop making pronouncements about how pure and infinite creation is and how anyone who thinks otherwise is a mindless drone. Here is a direct quote from you:

You can choose to consume media, experience stories as they are dictated to you, or you can craft them yourself... And if that is one of the purposes of the 4X game, to fashion your own stories, then be the author of that story and stop expecting someone else to end it for you.

That is condescending. That is directly saying that anyone who enjoys a story with an end is less than you. You are saying that a game with victory conditions or any kind of ending at all utterly precludes any possibility of a compelling user driven story and therefore worse in every respect.

Players create stories in everything. Even in books and films. Go to a Harry Potter message board and start a discussion about how Harry was clearly meant to end up with Hermione and see what happens. There is basically no mention of this in the books. Never does the reader get told it might ever be a thing. But the fans kinda disagree. They told their own story within the boundaries of a very finite world. You play PDS games for gods sake. Did you never manage to create a compelling story in anything else? Did reaching the end of CK2 totally prevent you creating something good within it's boundaries? Oh, sure, there could always have been more. But that doesn't mean your almighty story wasn't good or enjoyable or worth playing.

And in truth there's not much point in talking to you any further because, well, you're being snobbish and willfully ignoring pretty much everything I say. You apparently believe that any story you could create is better than any story anyone else could craft for you to participate in and dismissing anything else. To that line of thinking a game like Portal is appalling because you can't tell your own story, over looking the fact that the story it has is superbly crafted to deliver a compelling, enjoyable experience. There's a reason that it's really hard to get a book published (or a movie made or a game into production) because while everyone believes that writing stories isn't so hard it actually really is.

Finally - The 'story' you create in a game isn't what you seem to be saying it is. There is a history and a narrative to your actions but you are conflating that with writing a book and that's just wrong. You can ascribe a narrative to chess game too (or a Counter Strike match) personify pieces to be something more meaningful but the only options available to you are the ones the game presents you with. You can't change the rules, add a new character or have a twist that re-contextualizes every move taken so far.

To put it as simply as possible - You could write a book about your endless Stellaris game, but your endless Stellaris game isn't by itself a book. It's just... Moves. It has no inherent meaning; if the Ai took your same actions it would have the same exact impact, the same exact meaning. You are not engaged in some profound act of creation (as you continue to claim). You are playing a game and making up a story to keep it interesting, just like kids playing pretend. Claiming other wise is just pretentious.
 
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I like personally define my goals by my self. I know if I have lost or won (=reached my goals). That's one of main reasons why I like EU-games so much.

MHO of course.
 
In Civ I usually have only the "KILL 'EM ALL" condition activated, especially in Civ III where I put the turn count to a very high number. So, basically on Deity or Sid it is impossible to annihilate all other civs, except you start an all out nuclear war, which will lead to the utter destruction of every civ on the map.
 
Then stop making pronouncements about how pure and infinite creation is and how anyone who thinks otherwise is a mindless drone. Here is a direct quote from you:

Stop trying to justify your crappy attitude. You seem to actively want to read hostility into my posts, despite their content, and that is your problem, not mine. I've gone out of my way to offer an opportunity to chill on the confrontational posts, but you seem completely set on being abrasive and confrontational. So fine, but that is your choice.




That is condescending. That is directly saying that anyone who enjoys a story with an end is less than you. You are saying that a game with victory conditions or any kind of ending at all utterly precludes any possibility of a compelling user driven story and therefore worse in every respect.
No, it isn't, and no, I am not. You are putting words in my mouth. I said that if a 4X game is a sandbox, then we should approach it like one, rather than putting arbitrary limits on it.


And in truth there's not much point in talking to you any further because, well, you're being snobbish and willfully ignoring pretty much everything I say. You apparently believe that any story you could create is better than any story anyone else could craft for you to participate in and dismissing anything else. To that line of thinking a game like Portal is appalling because you can't tell your own story, over looking the fact that the story it has is superbly crafted to deliver a compelling, enjoyable experience. There's a reason that it's really hard to get a book published (or a movie made or a game into production) because while everyone believes that writing stories isn't so hard it actually really is.

I have addressed every single thing you have said. Just because I am not agreeing with you doesn't mean I'm ignoring what you have said. Don't blame others for your failure to communicate effectively.

And no, I do not apparently believe any of that nonsense. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. My entire premise throughout has been that 4X games are sandboxes, and sandboxes are best left to the player. If you want to start talking about linear or narrative-driven games, we would have to have a completely different conversation. You are pretending like a narrative-driven game and a victory condition on a 4X sandbox game are equivalent, like a victory condition somehow actually wraps up a story arc, but it doesn't. It wraps up a quantitative value. You reached 800 turns, you have the highest score, you win. That's not a story, that's not the end of a story, that is the end of a game. I disagree that victory conditions provide satisfying closure. But that's not even the point of this argument - I don't have a problem with victory conditions - the point is that you seem to think the game should be designed with victory conditions in mind, which is a whole other problem.

Finally - The 'story' you create in a game isn't what you seem to be saying it is. There is a history and a narrative to your actions but you are conflating that with writing a book and that's just wrong. You can ascribe a narrative to chess game too (or a Counter Strike match) personify pieces to be something more meaningful but the only options available to you are the ones the game presents you with. You can't change the rules, add a new character or have a twist that re-contextualizes every move taken so far.

To put it as simply as possible - You could write a book about your endless Stellaris game, but your endless Stellaris game isn't by itself a book. It's just... Moves. It has no inherent meaning; if the Ai took your same actions it would have the same exact impact, the same exact meaning. You are not engaged in some profound act of creation (as you continue to claim). You are playing a game and making up a story to keep it interesting, just like kids playing pretend. Claiming other wise is just pretentious.

You are belaboring the metaphor until it stops working, because that suits you better. Because you cannot accept that someone could possibly have an opposing viewpoint that is valid. Rather than twisting things until they break to suit your worldview, why not use the metaphor as it is intended; to help you to understand where other people are coming from?

Because the process is the important thing. Not the 'moves.' It's like arguing that writing a novel using a pen is fundamentally different from writing a novel using a typewriter, just because the keyboard removes the freedom to write letters in different ways. It's completely irrelevant. You yourself said earlier in this thread that boundaries are useful in telling stories, and yet here you are saying that games have boundaries and therefore it's not like writing a story.

Yes, there are differences between creating a story internally when playing a game, and writing a novel.
 
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Forgetting about all the arguments so far...

1) Open-ended, no victory, etc. This is very desirable by lots of folks.
2) Victory, or some form of game conclusion. This is very desirable by lots of folks.

Piffle! I don't care in terms of game structure - which puts me strongly in favour of #1. But, long-time experience puts me very much in favour of #2. That is, I think that some, hard, conclusion is ultimately more satisfying as a game player.

Unlike any number of game features and their implementations, this particular topic is totally unimportant as long as #2 does not trump #1. That is, "game end" does not occur because of victory conditions screwing the "open-ended" folk from continuing to play.

Or sommink.... :)
 
Stop trying to justify your crappy attitude. You seem to actively want to read hostility into my posts, despite their content, and that is your problem, not mine. I've gone out of my way to offer an opportunity to chill on the confrontational posts, but you seem completely set on being abrasive and confrontational. So fine, but that is your choice.





No, it isn't, and no, I am not. You are putting words in my mouth. I said that if a 4X game is a sandbox, then we should approach it like one, rather than putting arbitrary limits on it.




I have addressed every single thing you have said. Just because I am not agreeing with you doesn't mean I'm ignoring what you have said. Don't blame others for your failure to communicate effectively.

And no, I do not apparently believe any of that nonsense. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. My entire premise throughout has been that 4X games are sandboxes, and sandboxes are best left to the player. If you want to start talking about linear or narrative-driven games, we would have to have a completely different conversation. You are pretending like a narrative-driven game and a victory condition on a 4X sandbox game are equivalent, like a victory condition somehow actually wraps up a story arc, but it doesn't. It wraps up a quantitative value. You reached 800 turns, you have the highest score, you win. That's not a story, that's not the end of a story, that is the end of a game. I disagree that victory conditions provide satisfying closure. But that's not even the point of this argument - I don't have a problem with victory conditions - the point is that you seem to think the game should be designed with victory conditions in mind, which is a whole other problem.



You are belaboring the metaphor until it stops working, because that suits you better. Because you cannot accept that someone could possibly have an opposing viewpoint that is valid. Rather than twisting things until they break to suit your worldview, why not use the metaphor as it is intended; to help you to understand where other people are coming from?

Because the process is the important thing. Not the 'moves.' It's like arguing that writing a novel using a pen is fundamentally different from writing a novel using a typewriter, just because the keyboard removes the freedom to write letters in different ways. It's completely irrelevant. You yourself said earlier in this thread that boundaries are useful in telling stories, and yet here you are saying that games have boundaries and therefore it's not like writing a story.

Yes, there are differences between creating a story internally when playing a game, and writing a novel.
i'm just responding to one point, the novel metaphor. the player is the reader of the metaphorical novel, not the author. the developer is the author and, as you say, at some point they decide the story has come to an end.
 
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i'm just responding to one point, the novel metaphor. the player is the reader of the metaphorical novel, not the author. the developer is the author and, as you say, at some point they decide the story has come to an end.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, honestly. The developer is the author in some games, like say Mass Effect or the Witcher series(even there, players can add little bits to the story as they play, but it is mostly already written). With Paradox's GSG titles the developer merely provides you with a backdrop for the player to write his or her own story. Victory conditions could potentially damage the player's ability to do this, though I personally don't see the problem if they can be toggled off and don't completely derail AI behavior.
 
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Well, I'm excited for this game and I think it will be one of the best games of Paradox, and first I want to apologize for my broken english.

With all the respect, I'm with the people who said "no victory conditions". I don't want the developers to focus in those things, instead of adding challenges in form of events (end game disasters) and other gameplay features. Like other people said, adding victory conditions it's a decision which come with AI behaviours, and that can, IMHO, break the realism of the game (why a trade empire is declaring war only because someone is about to win? he is still making money, or even more money). Also I don't want an end date, in fact I don't want an end date in any Paradox Game. I hate when in Europa Universalis IV I need to stop playing because I'm in 1821, and I really don't care if I'm in 2015 only with muskets and cavalry, maybe the only thing I want is to paint the map with the color of my country.

Also, we are users, whe want a product and we will pay for it, so we both can be right if we are not breaking the spirit of the company (I don't think someone could want Paradox making this game simpler or them making Europa Universalis V a shooter). I want the game the way I want, and no the way you want, so being aggresive here is pointless. Sure adding options is good, but not for me if those options drain the developer's time or resources.

Have a nice day!
 
Well, I'm excited for this game and I think it will be one of the best games of Paradox, and first I want to apologize for my broken english.

With all the respect, I'm with the people who said "no victory conditions". I don't want the developers to focus in those things, instead of adding challenges in form of events (end game disasters) and other gameplay features. Like other people said, adding victory conditions it's a decision which come with AI behaviours, and that can, IMHO, break the realism of the game (why a trade empire is declaring war only because someone is about to win? he is still making money, or even more money). Also I don't want an end date, in fact I don't want an end date in any Paradox Game. I hate when in Europa Universalis IV I need to stop playing because I'm in 1821, and I really don't care if I'm in 2015 only with muskets and cavalry, maybe the only thing I want is to paint the map with the color of my country.

Also, we are users, whe want a product and we will pay for it, so we both can be right if we are not breaking the spirit of the company (I don't think someone could want Paradox making this game simpler or them making Europa Universalis V a shooter). I want the game the way I want, and no the way you want, so being aggresive here is pointless. Sure adding options is good, but not for me if those options drain the developer's time or resources.

Have a nice day!

Focus on this things...? Do you really think victory conditions means 100 hours of development too add and will reduce all other contant? That's not how it works. Victory conditions don't drain the developer's time or resources. Not as much as you claim.
 
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Focus on this things...? Do you really think victory conditions means 100 hours of development too add and will reduce all other contant? That's not how it works. Victory conditions don't drain the developer's time or resources. Not as much as you claim.

I think they will need to put AI acord those victory conditions, and they need to make a switch to on/off those behaviors, and also they need to make every AI behavior to every victory condition, I think that's a lot of time balancing the AI to be a real challenge. In the worst case those decisions can even have a negative effect on the "endless mode".

Btw, I'm not a programmer, so I don't know the time this things can take, but every time I look into programming I see even the most simply thing is a pain in the ass.
 
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I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, honestly. The developer is the author in some games, like say Mass Effect or the Witcher series(even there, players can add little bits to the story as they play, but it is mostly already written). With Paradox's GSG titles the developer merely provides you with a backdrop for the player to write his or her own story. Victory conditions could potentially damage the player's ability to do this, though I personally don't see the problem if they can be toggled off and don't completely derail AI behavior.

I'm sorry but the developer is always the author of the experience. Always. You can get a compelling experience certainly and you can create your own narrative within the world of the game but the world of the game is defined in every possible respect by the developers. Your experience playing is unique and meaningful to you but it's not fundamentally different to anyone else's. It doesn't matter how open and sandbox an experience is, every possible interaction was created by someone else.

In a choose your own adventure book you are not creating the narrative. You are just picking from options the author gave you.

In a game of Cards Against Humanity you are not actually being funny; you are just picking from a selection of funny cards that the developer gave to you. Your individual experience will be unique to you but you didn't create the parts. The game was built to let you feel like you were really funny.

The more complex a game, the better the illusion of personal agency but it really is just an illusion. The developers give you a huge number of possible choices but it them who created them. You aren't an author, you are playing a game that is designed to let you feel like a creator without all that tedious getting good at your art form. It is karaoke. No matter how good your performance, the credit for the song goes to someone else.
 
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