Also please provide me a link to where 'Panzer supplies' are in the game
so i can confirm the perfection of the new system
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Also please provide me a link to where 'Panzer supplies' are in the game
so i can confirm the perfection of the new system
Was "fuel" completely portable between everything at this point in time? Even ignoring the petrol/gasoline split, I can't imagine that all the planes, tanks, ships, and trucks all used the same formulation of fuel. "Fuel" was already an incredible abstraction, I have no issues with oil consumption being folded into equipment production.
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I think this is mostly acceptable for ground and air units, where losing individual pieces of equipment will be an almost continuous process. I don't see how it works for the navy. You don't want your super-heavy battleship to disappear due to supply attrition. So then it seems like they are free of ongoing supply cost, unless sunk.
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Introduce a "ships parts" equipment as I already suggested. Above all, avoid to name it "ship fuel"...
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After my first reading of the DD I was skeptical. No fuel, no supply stockpiled...
But then I readed it a second time and I think it's not a bad system after all, and it can even be very good.
But then I readed it a second time and I think it's not a bad system after all, and it can even be very good.
This.
It looks like they tried to improve on HoI3; rather than throw it out and make a GOOD meaningful and consistent supply game mechanic.
And this would have been good:
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Too late for your warning. Unfortunately I have already choked on my Friday beer (WHAT, NO FUEL?!!!!) before being able to give your idea a thought. 
I don't really see it as a problem as it relates to supplies. Stop supporting the T-26 and it'll be replaced by a t-34 or keep supporting the T-26. In either event you still need oil and various other "supplies" that equipment covers.
You would need tanks and rifles also at the begining of the war, so you could not just let your entire industry produce fuel barrels. I know it is not a perfect solution, but it has some pros. For instance, producing fuel barrels may require civil industry 'power' or maybe a completely new, special kind of factories (expansion material perhaps?) Also, you could model the use and demand for fuel by making oil barrels a very "spoilable" kind of equipment, especially during battles and while move. It is not very elegent, but it could work quite well and fit the entire equipment desing enough.
Yeah, I am sure they thought about that at some stage during development, I wonder why they rejected that idea. @podcat ?
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Let's also consider the HoI3 supply system for navel units: your ships are supplied as long as the port they are based at has supplies. They could go out on patrol in 1936 and not go back to port until 1940 and still be fully supplied and fueled. The port your ships were supplied out of lacks supplies? Issue a re-base order to another port, instantly full of supplies while somewhere out in the Pacific! Naval ships basically were supplied by magic already.
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Welcome to the abstraction. As I see it, there are two important effects of being in a location with good supply access: First, you avoid accumulating "out of supply" penalties. Second, you can access your equipment stockpile to replace some of your equipment lost to attrition. Attrition rates are higher than they would be in real life, so if you have an empty stockpile your forces may not suffer supply penalties per se, but they will fairly quickly attrit into nothing.
I agree - it's statistics basically. A tank troop doing donuts around Moscow uses a lot of fuel. A tank fighting in Leningrad uses a lot of ammo. Statistically they both need 0.6 worth of factory output to resupply. It a tank battalion drives from Berlin to Moscow it ends up with only enough fuel to effectively field 10 tanks. It needs another 90 tanks worth of supply to fight at full strength. Whether those supplies are ammo, fuel, spare tracks, gearboxes, etc. or actual tanks themselves is irrelevant at the grand strategy scale - all we care about is they need a certain amount of resources to replenish.
If a tank battalion of panzer 4s run out of armour piercing ammo then they get sent whatever is in the stockpile - if you have enough chromium to make more p4 level tanks then they use those stats, if you can only supply old HE ammo then the tanks fight with the stats of worse tanks (i.e. they have been 'resupplied' with old p3s left in the stockpile). Getting old tracks / gear trains / dirty fuel from old tanks makes your new tanks work less well thus they fight with the statistical effect of a previous tank. Yes in reality it might be a P4 body which the crew distrust but statistically it's the same as replacing it with a p3 (or an earlier variant of the p4 if you have that in stock)
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It looks like it will work 100 times better than the supplysystem in HoI3. I hope so. Well done developers, well done. ;D
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I think it's no coincidence that @podcat chose Japan to showcase the new way supplies work. Pacific warfare was micro-hell in HoI3 because of supplies.
Is it likely that we could have a button on the supply map to activate transports in range? Hated the micro of managing air supply drops.
Question: Out of supply units. Will some units like heavy tanks have steeper penalty curves to simulate higher supply needs?
Now, having looked at the early development screanshots, I can actually think, that what really happened, was this:
-In HOI3, dev team had quite a bad time with logistics and most importantly balancing fuel consumption and it`s production and purchase. The synthetic oil for every one in 1936 and ludicurous price of oil and fuel were simply a placeholders that devs had to put, to ship the game, as it had more serious problems. Unfortunately, in HOI3 devs balanced the system around the synthetic oil, and at some point, simply chose to not revise the decision.
-In HOI4, fuel and supplies were initially planned, but due to the game being delayed by almost a year, the devs decided to cut the supply&fuel system.
Simply look at the early screanshots:
Note how neither tanks nor planes cost any oil to produce, and how division in template has both supply and fuel consumption as distinctive stats.
Also look at DD8, where ship construction is shown, and it doesn`t appear that ship has huge cost in oil.
Now, look at DD18, where it is obvious that the cuts happened somewhere it the middle, because the game was delayed.
In this DD, Podcat also mentions stockpiling problems, that quite frankly were the reason having supply and fuel being cut (or not implemented). They simply couldn`t balance the old system, hence we didn`t get early DD on supply, as it wasn`t working well, and devs simply decided to cop out altogather, replacing it with this system of everything being rolled in equipment, since equipment system is the one that actually works. It is insane to see the game`s level of detail in areas of production, teching and politics, but cut out supply stystem as being "too complicated".
Yes, devs have to tell stories and put positive spin on this, as it is their job. I only hope that they will not go HOI3 on this, and leave this system in forever. Oh, well, whom am I kidding?
-In HOI3, dev team had quite a bad time with logistics and most importantly balancing fuel consumption and it`s production and purchase. The synthetic oil for every one in 1936 and ludicurous price of oil and fuel were simply a placeholders that devs had to put, to ship the game, as it had more serious problems. Unfortunately, in HOI3 devs balanced the system around the synthetic oil, and at some point, simply chose to not revise the decision.
-In HOI4, fuel and supplies were initially planned, but due to the game being delayed by almost a year, the devs decided to cut the supply&fuel system.
Simply look at the early screanshots:
Note how neither tanks nor planes cost any oil to produce, and how division in template has both supply and fuel consumption as distinctive stats.
Also look at DD8, where ship construction is shown, and it doesn`t appear that ship has huge cost in oil.
Now, look at DD18, where it is obvious that the cuts happened somewhere it the middle, because the game was delayed.
In this DD, Podcat also mentions stockpiling problems, that quite frankly were the reason having supply and fuel being cut (or not implemented). They simply couldn`t balance the old system, hence we didn`t get early DD on supply, as it wasn`t working well, and devs simply decided to cop out altogather, replacing it with this system of everything being rolled in equipment, since equipment system is the one that actually works. It is insane to see the game`s level of detail in areas of production, teching and politics, but cut out supply stystem as being "too complicated".
Yes, devs have to tell stories and put positive spin on this, as it is their job. I only hope that they will not go HOI3 on this, and leave this system in forever. Oh, well, whom am I kidding?
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So far from what we've seen, the HoI4 system takes this level of magic and adds ships that don't require any ongoing industrial or resource cost.
I wonder if you could have a kind of attrition of ships and work that into supply and repair mechanisms. Say ships lose org while at sea. You have a special production line "naval supply" that has priority like other production lines. If your ships in port aren't at full org, the naval supply production line temporarily steals naval yards from production lines that are below it in priority to provide org to your fleets. Once you research underway replenishment, your fleet at sea can access this naval supplies production line while in range of a base, further techs increase the supply range.
Repair could work similarly. You have a naval repair production line and it steals naval factories from lines below it in priority to restore hitpoints to damaged ships in your naval bases.
If repairing, resupplying and building all took roughly the same resource profile per naval yard then you wouldn't see resource fluctuations, but maintaining and repairing a large fleet would bite into your capacity to build new ships.
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Looks good the bottelneck thing. Intresting to know if ships haw allways they homebases from where they take supply away if so then how much roads you haw is not importent for them, only the port size. With this system we can support more ships in africa if we bild more roads in the desert???
As much as I wanted to chuckle at your statement, I would like to point a few things out.
1) Tank engines and transmissions require rebuilds after driving so many miles.
2) Tank guns require replacement after firing so many rounds.
In that sense, it seems to me that the system abstracts all of this into a single pot of production and logistics.
You don't fuel or repair tanks, you just build more as from the perspective of someone at the top, all that matters is functional vehicles. HOI3 didn't account for repairing vehicles, either.
It seems to me that, for armies and air forces at least, the assumption is that even if you drove the same tank for 1000 km, it would require rebuilds and replacement parts that might end up equaling a new tank anyway.
I agree it feels a bit weird.
The good news is that not only is the supply micro gone, but now it looks like you can actually do something about supply problems that doesn't involve resorting to Calculus and the wiki just to diagnose the problem.
You weren't trying hard enough. This is what it takes to consume 80k in fuel.
Chapter 7: End Game
Despite Hudson’s grim outlook on the war, things are looking up.
When the Finns join the war, I fire the Gulf of Finland strategic effect. This gives me a positive balance for rares, but doesn’t end the deficit of metals. With the Gulf of Finland in effect, I buy more time for the war if I need it. The Finns can also secure the White Sea ports. This is a good thing; even with my horde of allies, I only have so many divisions I can spread out on the front. Things are getting thin in places.
At this point in the war, I had been seeing more Soviet armor on the front, including significant HARM. While the Soviet AI doesn’t use them efficiently, and while I have a ton of HA thanks to TDs, I am concerned that between practicals and the automotive industry in Stalingrad, they might be able to fill the front with tons of armor. While it is not immediately obvious, there is a time limit to my campaign in Russia. Fuel is going to become a big problem in a few months.
So, in the Market Garden tradition, I drop PARA on Stalingrad. The goal is to cut the strategic resource now and have MECH catch up later. The PARA are 5 brigades full and there are 3 of them, so it’s not like they can’t hold out for a while. At around the same time, I also launch an invasion across the Black Sea towards Baki. The goal is to split up Soviet forces while the MECH advances, but also to get the Turkish AI to accept an invitation to the Axis. And it works. I did get scared at one point when multiple divisions containing HARM show up outside Stalingrad, but the movie makes things look much more grim than they really were. It does take a little longer than 17 days to reach Stalingrad, but the Soviets lose a ton of troops due to encirclements.
In fact, it wasn’t until I puppeted the Soviets that I saw how bad the damage was. The Soviets end the war with only 400+ brigades. The AI really took advantage of those MECH divisions to get some encirclements done.
But because the Soviets have a ton of national unity, I know that taking Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, and the cities on the Eastern Front isn’t enough. With Turkey in the war, I withdraw the MAR from the Black Sea and prepare for Donnitz’s last mission of the war. Using British Hong Kong as a port, Donnitz sends the carriers to Vladivostok.
We really need the 10 VPs for taking the city, especially because things are getting worse on the logistical front. Look at the screenshots again. Did you notice the fuel stockpile?
Yep, the Reich has consumed over 80k in fuel between December and April. Already things are turning south.
At first I didn’t even notice what was going on. I wasn’t paying attention to the fuel stockpile, so I just kept running tons of air missions and wondering why the MECH divisions were slowing down after we caught up to Stalingrad. It wasn’t until I was rebasing Donnitz to Vladivostok in anticipation for further operations that I realized something was seriously wrong. The CTF couldn’t get any fuel for operations despite being based in a major port with convoys going to it. An inspection of the supply network revealed problems, but the last place I looked was the stockpile itself.
Let’s just say the fuel situation caused me to repeat more Bill Paxton lines than anything else during war. If we can’t take the last VPs, it really is game over.
After the first defeat at Moscow (there are three total!), I start pulling air assets back to Berlin. I also rebase the CTF to Kiel. This leaves the MAR marooned in Vladivostok with no hope of escape should the Soviets get enough assets there to push them out. It also means that the overwhelming firepower I’ve enjoyed the entire war is no longer in play. The supply situation is also getting worse, as fluctuating demand is forcing me to produce tons of supply just to keep the upward swings in network demand from causing the stockpile to go to zero.
After the third try, we finally take Moscow. We keep failing, not because the AI wins the battles, but because the MECH runs out of fuel and simply can’t enter the city. You’d think taking Moscow would solve our fuel issues, but it really doesn’t. I’m not sure why. I figured the fuel stockpile would filter to the front and reinvigorate the offensive, but the fuel situation doesn’t really improve. The only good side to all of this is that we are sitting in Moscow and can try holding the line until something improves. If the divisions aren’t on the move, fuel use should drop and let the logistics catch up. And on defense, they don’t need fuel to fight at full efficiency. Of course, if the situation doesn’t improve, then I’ve basically lost the war. It’s not like I can afford to pull land units off the line to relieve logistics. With so few divisions on the front, even pulling off a single corps will leave the line too flimsy to hold at its present location.
Basically, I’m looking at the embarrassing proposition of retreating all the way back to Poland and starting over, only this time I have burned all the fuel I refined and all that I stole from the UK, France, and the Soviets.
Even with all the major cities in Axis hands, the Soviets still won’t surrender. But there is one glimmer of hope left. There is a single 5 VP city within PARA range. Basically, after all of this effort, I’m going to have to slightly abuse PARA to win. And so I drop them in.
The great mystery of this offensive is thus: how in the Hell did Guderian get in command of the PARA? I consolidated the chain of command at some point after France fell, and I deleted an Army. Perhaps he ended up being cut out of the OOB at some point and when reviewing the leadership of the PARA, I wasn’t paying attention to who I was putting into command. However it happened, it proves that paying attention to the chain of command is helpful. Had Guderian been in command of his Army, maybe things might have gone faster.
In spite of these setbacks, we finally win the war, and not a moment too soon.
I’ll do a brief post-war analysis in my next update.
Of course, that's a ton of effort...
I was thinking of oilers for the navy to do the same thing. An oilers mod to make it important to supply the navy with fuel. But there are no division templates in the navy, so...
This is where I get kind of confused.
I can see replacing tanks and planes due to rebuilds/maintenance and so on. You end up needing oil because you simply won't have the same tank driving 1000 km without a major engine rebuild (which, in HOI terms, means that you replace it with a new tank). With certain situations increasing attrition, the system works.
With ships, it's a different ballgame. Yamato or Vittorio Veneto will sail with impunity under the new system as long as they aren't completely sunk. I guess affecting combat performance if their naval bases are out of supply will help, but I'm wondering if I might need to mod the game to include some kind of oil-sink dummy ships to make the war at sea a bit more sensible.
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