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Fuel, or rather lack of fuel, seems to be the main point of discussion on today's DD.

So I'm surprised to be the first to ask that simple question: what the big fuel jerricans on the pictures (with 1/60, 2/65, 1/66 and 2/53 numbers) of Podcat OP are meaning ?

Yes, the big fuel jerricans next to the infrastructure and port icons. If there's no fuel in the game, what is the purpose/meaning of these big jerricans ?
 
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One of the dev diaries showed 'synthetic plants' that took up a factory slot and generated oil and rubber resources.

There are also another few buildings which are categorised as factories when it comes to rules.
  • Synthetic Refineries - which each produce 1 Rubber and 2 Oil.

In any case, Italy can build some synthetic plants to get oil, but that reduces max potential industry.
Yes that is correct. It could potentially be your only way to get oil if you have no access to the market of any country that sells oil and without oil your chance of victory will not be bright.
 
Fuel, or rather lack of fuel, seems to be the main point of discussion on today's DD.

So I'm surprised to be the first to ask that simple question: what the big fuel jerricans on the pictures (with 1/60 and 2/65 numbers) of Podcat OP are meaning ?

Yes, the big fuel jerricans next to the infrastructure and port icons. If there's no fuel in the game, what is the purpose/meaning of these big jerricans ?

I think those are to give you an easy overlook at the state of supplies in your various states without having to mouse over each one seperately. The one in Korea says 1/60, which could be a rounding down of the total numbers shown in the tooltip.
 
Another Friday, another diary! Today we will be talking about something a lot of you have been asking about for a long time: The Supply System. This is going to be a big one!

The HOI3 supply system had a lot of problems. It was hard to understand how it worked, and it was hard to know what to do to solve supply problems for the player because it was usually due to missing something some time ago. We even made a separate Arcade Mode for supply which of course nobody used (what self respecting player would pick something called "Arcade Mode"?).

After a couple of glasses of 16yo Lagavulin and some deep thoughts the following problems needed to be solved:
  • It must at any point be possible to look at an area and see how many troops can work there without problems. Also for naval invasions.
  • It must be possible to see exactly what the bottleneck in your supplies are and give the player possible actions to fix this that are clear.
  • The supply system itself must not have long complicated flow networks where cause and effect are hidden by time.
  • The supply system must not collapse if a capital is taken which was a big problem in HOI3 and both unrealistic and not fun.
  • Holding out in cities should be possible even when cut off from the rest of your force.
  • Resistance must be able to hurt your supply lines without being a Whac-A-Mole problem.
  • Supply issues need to get gradually worse for a unit rather than feel binary like in HOI3.

Scary list? Sure is, but I think we managed to solve all of it. So how does it work then?
  • The world is separated up in Supply Areas, made up of provinces. They are purely for gameplay and generally follow terrain types and such.
  • Each area can tell you at a glance exactly how many divisions it can support and how much you are taking up.
  • If you hover your mouse over an area it will show you an arrow tracing the path supply takes, and indicate what is limiting it. Areas also have quick buttons for helping solve problems right there (improve naval base level or infrastructure etc).
  • The game will show alerts from areas with supply problems to notify player (super useful when you are, say, Britain and spread over many theaters).

dsoLEUA.jpg


The supply level of an area are decided by the following things:
  • A local scripted value. Think of it as base infrastructure that can't really be destroyed (will be basically 0 in mountains and deserts and pretty high in densely populated Europe).
  • Any big cities/victory points will increase it. So holding out in these is possible.
  • Local resistance movement activity in occupied territory disrupting things for you (we'll have a separate diary on these guys)
  • Incoming supplies from neighbor area. We trace back to capital, or if capital is cut off the next best area. The supply you get is limited by the lowest infrastructure on your route (also possibly sabotaged by resistance), including your own infrastructure level. So for a player what you need to care about is what the bottleneck is, because that is what is going to affect how troops on the front fare. There is also some guaranteed spillover from neighbors to soften the transitions between bad and good areas (simulating that even if decent railway lines stop at a point it's feasible to transport some distance with trucks or horses etc).
  • If we are cut off from home area, say fighting in Africa, or on an island, supply will travel overseas using convoys and be limited by the size of the ports receiving it. So making sure convoys are not sunk and bases are able to sustain you is important before doing any overseas activities.
  • Put transport planes on a mission to drop supplies. Useful for cut off troops (this is still WIP so can't show it yet).
  • It also worth noting that supply areas will change size if they are being fought over so actual levels will depend on how much you control.

6i9oMdh.jpg


When a unit finds itself out of supply it has a short period of time where they can live off their own supplies, after that their situation will gradually get worse up to about 30 days when things get very bad. Being out of supply makes you lose organization, move slower, not fight as effectively and take a lot more attrition. Veteran players of HOI know that the best way to beat the enemy is to cut off their supply, encircle them and then destroy them, and this remains true in HOI4.

So how can a player improve their supply situation?
You start by finding the bottleneck.
  • Improve infrastructure to allow more supply into the area.
  • If linked by sea, make sure to escort convoys and protect them from raiders.
  • Build bigger naval bases to allow better throughput.
  • Deal with local resistance.
  • Research and attach Supply Companies to your division templates to help them manage.
  • Airdrop supplies.
  • Simply withdraw some troops from an area.

So, what is supply exactly?
In HOI3 supplies was something you produced and stockpiled, then fed into a flow network towards units. In HOI4 the only thing you can stockpile is equipment so this is what you do. Moving, training, fighting, being in bad weather or in particular in bad supply means equipment breaks down and this equipment needs to be shipped. The worse a supply situation is the longer it will take to send equipment and the more attrition you will take. So instead of a flow network we have a system being limited by bottlenecks.

So this means that the abstract "supply" of HOI3 is now instead requests for specific equipment instead which fits a lot better in with HOI4's equipment and production focus. This also means that there is no separate fuel need as such in the game, this instead is included in production of replacement equipment which need Oil (all tanks, trucks etc). Before everyone chokes on their friday beer give this some thought. Being able to stockpile fuel generally leads to the same problems as all other kinds of stockpiling when it comes to hindsight, so by wrapping it into the actual production of equipment requests to units (also nobody would request a tank without diesel to run it, and if they did it wouldn't really be usable as a tank) everything clicks into place and player doesn't have to micro manage all movement, airplane rebasing etc to try to avoid fuel waste and focus on making sure they have access to a strategic Oil resource and replacement equipment and a clear path for units to be supplied.

AA3oZzr.jpg


(p.s dont look too much at the numbers in all these screenshots, we havent really finished balancing supply yet)

Next diary we will take a look at civil wars and coups!

Great dd podcat!!!

I think a tutorial on that would be very useful, when the game is released...
 
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I think those are to give you an easy overlook at the state of supplies in your various states without having to mouse over each one seperately. The one in Korea says 1/60, which could be a rounding down of the total numbers shown in the tooltip.

It makes sense. But then, why the numbers are only 1/66 where the main Japan fleet with 64 ships is located ? Shouldn't this fleet suck up more supplies than that ?

And as there is no more fuel, it's a bit ironic to use jerricans to symbolize supplies.
 
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How does China not get steamrolled every time if Japan doesn`t care for fuel, as all it`s navy will just run on concentrated Emperor`s will, instead of American oil, that can be cut by embargo, leaving Japan unable to enforce blockade, and supply their troops in China.

Even funnier, Japan is under no pressure whatsoever to push into pacific, as it can purchase oil from Venesuella or Persia while at peace. And after ships are built, they don`t need to be refueled anyway.
Can you have enough ships as Japan? I don't think so and without oil you will not be able to build modern ships and without modern ships your navy will not be able to keep up. US will with ease outbuild you both in quantity as well as quality.

oil being used in everything but inf and arty, means its more important to bomb than any other resource.
I would say iron is the most needed strategic resource. Without iron you can't even build infantry weapons.
 
So I'm surprised to be the first to ask that simple question: what the big fuel jerricans on the pictures (with 1/60, 2/65, 1/66 and 2/53 numbers) of Podcat OP are meaning ?

It looks like a ratio of unit draw on supply- to- max supply limit.
He said a standard 3 brigade infantry division is 1. So later big or tank divs may be more so left side number does not translate to exact number of real divisions possible.
 
i can't really understand why removing fuel. Fuel and supplies are pretty different things, they require different infrastructures and mostly, many divisions don't really need fuel. I think they should have a bonus over fuel driven divisions (and not only a "spam more" balance).

Btw, the thing i really CAN'T understand, is why you still have the idea that supplies come just from capital. I think it's stupid and also a limit. Uk colonial units didn't get their supplies from London, just to say one, just like italians didn't send supplies to their ethiopian units from rome.
I think there should be a more accurate logistical network with the player being able to create mayor supply depot (you already have building slot in your provinces, so it should be an easy add on) that would be filled by near factory.
 
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It makes sense. But then, why the numbers are only 1/66 where the main Japan fleet with 64 ships is located ? Shouldn't this fleet suck up more supplies than that ?

And as there is no more fuel, it's a bit ironic to use jerricans to symbolize supplies.

Podcat did say that the numbers are still unbalanced, and it might be an old icon used as a placeholder.
 
We are talking about supplying here, not replacing loses. If it is the same thing for the developers, I just might stick to that "uninteresting" system that was unrealistic, but way more realistic than this.
IMHO it was done for convenience not realism since this seems to be a straight port from EU IV with the addition of only a few on/off "supply" flags (ports, envelopment, etc.) that affect the units combat ability or effectiveness. For example in EU IV "divisions" need money and manpower to fight at 100% while in HOI IV they require equipment, manpower and a flag saying they have supply (a non-existent resource in-game). So I agree the HOI III supply system even with all its quirks seems to be hands down more realistic than this "supply" system.
 
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I can tell you the supply system is not a port from EUIV. HOI3 system did not work, from early screenshot you can see that they did plan to keep HOI3 system but that was probably removed with the delay because they found out it did not work and wen't for the current HOI4 supply system. HOI3 system did not produce realistic results and was not interesting. I expect HOI4 system to produce alot more realistic results and be interesting.

HOI3 supply system was not realistic and will most likely be inferior in realism to HOI4 supply system.

It is the end result that matters not if a system have a resource called fuel or not.
 
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Btw, the thing i really CAN'T understand, is why you still have the idea that supplies come just from capital. I think it's stupid and also a limit. Uk colonial units didn't get their supplies from London, just to say one, just like italians didn't send supplies to their ethiopian units from rome.

British India is a separate country, and I doubt that Italian Army in East Africa could supply themselves "off the land" with anything at all.

I think there should be a more accurate logistical network with the player being able to create mayor supply depot (you already have building slot in your provinces, so it should be an easy add on) that would be filled by near factory.

All the armchair generals-cum-mathematicians on this forum agree. Wouldn't it be great if the game modeled a province-by-province supply network that received supply requests from units and then routed supplies optimally given location of depots and infrastructure, taking into account future requirements due to planned offensives and redeployments? And the AI knew how to optimally place depots to avoid getting blasted into dust by clever humans? And all of that ran on your 10 year old laptop at two weeks a second?

Fortunately for all of us, those silly amateurs at Paradox don't know how to make such a simple thing work, otherwise they wouldn't be making video games, but rather cornering the market in strategy and operations consulting.
 
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Ah, yes, the oil embargo that retroactively prevented Japan from advancing for 3 years. The oil embargo came in July 1941...
I was under impression that Chinese campaign lasted for more than 3 years IRL. Maybe, I just heard wrong :rolleyes:
For the fifth time, if oil is required to repair ships, what's the problem?
For the 6th time, the damage and repair and deployment mechanism of ships was not revealed yet. We don`t even know if ships come in fractions of ship.
Can you have enough ships as Japan? I don't think so and without oil you will not be able to build modern ships and without modern ships your navy will not be able to keep up. US will with ease outbuild you both in quantity as well as quality.
I don`t hold my breath for AI USA. In HOI3, by the time you engage USA, you could match them both in base IC and tech (~1942), and beat them to pulp with your starting navy.

With the game being "more sandbox" i can imagine a variety of scenarious where by the time Japan would need to fight USA, it will hold large swaths of middle east.
I would say iron is the most needed strategic resource. Without iron you can't even build infantry weapons.
Aviavability is also important.
 
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I can tell you the supply system is not a port from EUIV.
I´ve skipped your HOI III supply system comments because you clearly don´t know what you are saying if you reduce that system to a non-functioning state. Anyway I am very much interested in knowing why you think this is not a port with a few add-ons. Because I understand both games very well (HOI III and EU IV) the port seems obvious: base supply, terrain affects supply, supply affects attrition, equipment (aka money in EU IV) etc. I was expecting something like this the moment I read/heard Quill, Arumba or a journalist (I can´t recall exactly who was it) saying they lost a big chunk of their army to attrition in Brazil while playing as Brazil (!!!).
 
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The more I think about the lifetime fuel cost of a unit being included in the initial production, the less I like the idea. Take for example two nations constructing tanks. The first nation is engaged in high tempo active operations close to its own borders against an enemy equipped with plentiful high quality AT weapons. The tanks get constructed, loaded onto a train and unloaded a few miles from the front line. Then they drive to the front and engage the enemy, being knocked out within a few days. They only fill their petrol tanks once in their lifetime. The other nation is engaged in low density operations against an enemy who is behind in technology and lacking in good AT weapons. Those tanks could drive thousands of miles before suffering a catastrophic failure requiring the tank be written off. Spare tracks, replacement parts and servicing the engine keep it going without the need to have anything like a total rebuild, and even where rebuilds are necessary the armoured plates and basic frame of the tank are still fine. Those tanks could fill their petrol tanks say 50 times over the course of their lives. These example may represent the extremes, but if its averaged out, the first nation has to expend 25 times as much oil in production than its tanks would actually use while the second is able to drive twice as far as its fuel supplies should allow. Its a deeply flawed theory.

I can understand not wanting to have stockpiles. but I think there is a better way of handling fuel in HOI4 than has been illustrated so far. This would be to limit operations based on the proportion of fuel supplies to units that need fuel. For example lets say that 1 point of Oil allows 10 armoured or motorised battalions or 500 planes or 10 destroyers to operate without restriction. Each day the amount of oil is compared to the units/planes/ships that need it giving a proportion, lets call it 80% for this example.

For ground units it could simply be a matter of reducing the base movement of fuel dependent units where there is a shortage. So instead of moving at say 10kmh, the 80% fuel supply would limit movement to 8kmh.

For aircraft, the limitation could keep planes from flying, so at 80% only 80% of planes at each base could operate that day.

For ships, I'd say that each hour spent in port allows them to spend say 10 hours assigned to a mission, to a maximum of 1000 hours before they have to return to port. With fuel supplies at only 80%, each hour in port would only allow 8 hours on mission, thus keeping them in port longer than would otherwise be the case. It should also be possible to mothball ships so that they can't move but don't count against the fuel requirements.

With a system like this, a nation with fuel shortages would have an incentive to reduce the number of fuel dependent divisions to improve the efficiency of the others, which the Germans did when they converted 2 motorised divisions back to infantry in 42/43. A nation with significant numbers of obsolete aircraft would have an incentive to keep them in reserve so that the operations of its modern aircraft were not impacted, modelling the retirement of older models that all major nations did, whereas the current system will have those old planes keep flying until they're all destroyed. The navy of a nation suffering from fuel shortages would spend more time in port than its opponents, better reflecting the problems besetting the Japanese and Italian navies.
 
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Cheers for the DD Podcat :). As always, I (and most if not all of we, I'm sure) appreciate your openness and honesty. I also like the general direction of the supply system (in terms of managing what's sent to units to keep them operational) - the supply system in terms of transfer of resources and transparency to players (and I'm presuming that equipment doesn't move one province per day either, which will be a huge improvement.

However, removing fuel and supplies is a choice that I can only reasonably understand from Mursolini's suggestion that the aim was for something deeper, but time ran out so there was a need to shoehorn in something that would 'do the job'. It's a bit hard to know where to start with the whole equipment/fuel/supply = one item with the same cost thing, but the fundamental issue is that the ratio of the consumption of equipment/parts, fuel and ammunition/food/other consumables varies, and substantially, between different units in different situations in a way that makes a fundamental and sizeable impact on the management of war at the strategic level.

Accordingly, removing this distinction from the series removes depth from gameplay, and choices from players, and these are choices and depth that impact on the outcome of things like Operation Barbarossa, the War in the Pacific and the speed the Allies can breakthrough from France into Germany. When modelling/abstracting the second world war, it makes more sense to remove the distinction between medium/light/heavy tanks at different years, than it does to assume that the ratio of consumption of equipment/parts, fuel and supplies is a constant. Ie, a HoI where there was no tech progression, and there was just tanks/fighters/infantry/ships, would likely do a better job of WW2 than a game that sets a fixed ratio of equipment, fuel and supplies.

Of course, it's not my game, and PDS should make the game it wants to make (and I'm still looking forward to playing it :)), but it is a shame to see such a disregard for the time period, and a reduction in depth in the base game.

I've got a bunch of questions, but only really two critical ones:

If we mod fuel and supplies separately into the game, and adjust the resource cost of each to better reflect historical usage ratios, will the AI be able to handle it?

and

Can we set an upper limit on the amount of fuel and supplies that can be stockpiled, and will the AI be able to understand it?

If the answer is yes to both, I'm all smiles. If no, then it will be somewhat saddening, but I'll cope.

Any big cities/victory points will increase it. So holding out in these is possible.

Next diary we will take a look at civil wars and coups!

Is this a different level for different cities/VPs, and not for all VPs? Say, for example, Guadalcanal is a VP, it would be seven shades of odd for that to be a source of supply? Depends a lot on where the VPs are, so hard to judge, but be careful with how these are set, as making VPs/cities too strong a sources of supply (and depending on where they are, making VPs give supply at all) could further reduce strategic depth.

I know I haven't provided many details for my concerns, but that's because this post is long enough already. I'll explain each issue in individual threads, to try and avoid things getting overly tangled.

And don't get me started on them dumbing down the game by removing the "Convert avgas to bunker fuel" spell.

They haven't actually removed this spell, but rather they've buffed it - now you can convert pretty much anything to anything, just at a fixed rate. This proposed system is a huge drop in realism, not the other way around. Now this is the devs' prerogative, but given the excellent work to increase strategic depth and player choice elsewhere, it's a shame to see it take a backward leap here.
 
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You don't.
You order fuel, ammunition, spare tracks, greasing oil, and a less-shitty radio, coming out at 0,16 worth of "panzer supplies", all of which are conveniently constructed by a factory-park in Leipzig, and costing a total of 0,16 oil, 0,32 metal, and 0,16 rubber.

It all starts making A LOT more sense once you stop thinking of 1 in-game "tank resource" as a singular tank and nothing else, and start thinking of it as a collection of various supplies and spare parts more-or-less-related-to tanks.

You drive for a day? That's 0,03 "tank supplies" worth of fuel.
You fight for a day? 0,03 fuel + 0,04 ammo + 0,01 new track = 0,08 "tank supplies" needs to be delivered from Leipzig before the tank is again ready for action.

Abstract? Aye.
Bad system? Nay.

I see what you are saying, but I don't like it. Plain and simple, don't like it. It seems to me to be a solution in search of a problem. What is wrong with having "supplies" and "fuel", produced and transported separately? If you have read my posts you will know I also want separate "Lubricants" and "Spare Parts Panzer IV" and "Spare Parts MG40", etc. I love detail, and the more the merrier.

For me, and I see I am not alone, when you make things "simple" you break immersion for a lot of us. We want to worry about these things, we want to micro them. Things like fuel consumption are things the real world commanders, planners, and leaders had to worry about. I want to have to worry about them too. I want to have to make the hard decisions about who gets the scarce fuel. I'm sorry I won't get a chance to.
 
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