Hearts of Iron IV - 33rd Development Diary - Supply

[Zoob]

It's not a war simulation game.

 

[Tharkun]

Was the ingame issue you mentioned also historical?

I don't understand, could you clarify?

Did the Germans had logistical problems during Barbarossa as well as you have problems playing Germans?

Yes, of course they did, I only mentioned that to highlight the realism of HoI3 logistics (relative to what we'll get in HoI4).

 

[FUregistration]

It's not a war simulation game.

Not anymore no.

 

[Denkt]

Well, this is a list compiled by No Idea and myself from the Megathread. Some of them are a bit over overlapping but yeah.

Lets take a look

Ships especially are unbalanced by this as they don't suffer 'attrition'. Japan could build a hundred battleships pre-war using oil imports from the SU or US then when war breaks out and they are cut off - no biggie, BB's don't use oil.

Depend on how you mean unbalanced as there is many ways to balance the system. I myself think that the developers have gone with: "Ships become
obsolete very quickly". That mean you will need to build new ships all the time because old ships will not be worth much in the late game. That also mean your early game performance may not mean much in the late game because even if you have been good with conserving your ships in the early game their value will not be great if the enemy somehow make it into the late game. This mean you need to push any advantage you have while it last and thus the navy game will probably be alot more aggressive in HOI4 then it was in real life. Without oil your shipbuilding will be significant slower which mean you will not be able to build the same quantity of ships which is fatal combined with the much reduced value of early tech ships. A lack of oil will most certainly mean defeat however defeat will not come instantly but slowly. Nations that lack oil are encouraged to play the navy game very aggresive because they need to either end it early, get access to oil or block enemy access to oil or iron. If they don't the enemy will eventually defeat them with both quality and quantity.

We don't know how this will play out yet but my toughts are that Japan will play super aggressive because they are playing against time.

It's unbalanced post-battle. The country that performs well and has lots of planes/tanks/ships left no requires no oil even though they still have lots of planes/tanks/ships. The country that performs poorly now requires lots of oil (for replacements) even though they no longer have any planes/tanks/ships.

The production system of HOI4 is based around static production lines that are seldom changed. This mean that if both countries have the same production lines they will need the same access to oil no matter what losses they take because equipments have no upkeep or even cost resource because it is the factories that cost strategic resources to produce stuff. But no matter how many equipment they produce they will need the same amount of reosources.

The country that performces worse may need more equipment but it will not need more resources.

Capturing a countries oil supply wont have a dramatic effect for potentially years as anything already produced is free to run for life. Players will abuse this and use equipment to effectively stockpile oil. Japan loses virtually all of it's oil production? Oh well - business as usual for their navy, airforce and armour divisions

It will have effects, not instantaneously but over the long run. Loss of oil mean that production of everything that need oil will slow down. In the long run that will mean less ships, less tanks, less aircrafts and so on. Combined with techs that can quickly turn fatal. If you build your whole army around equipment that needs oil, your army will be build around oil and if you no longer can keep up production because lack of oil your army will collapse quickly.

It kills the idea of a naval reserve. Why bother keeping a reserve in port when one of the main advantages of it was that it conserved fuel? With that gone there is no reason not to have the whole fleet as big as you can possibly make it sailing around.

I can not say anything against this However Like I said before I think paradox wan't an aggresive naval game, not a naval game based around fleet in being.

The amount of oil needed should reflect the standing size of the force not how quickly it's destroyed. If a country has 1000 active tanks they should use 1000 tanks worth of oil. At the moment if they have 1000 tanks dying slowly they only need 500 oil, if they have 1000 tanks dying quickly they need 2000 oil. Even though the whole time the number of active tanks remains the same.

A larger army based around oil using equipment will also need more factories dedicated to produce these equpiments thus need more oil.

Because planes/tanks/ships (especially ships - running theme ) don't require oil to run large countries could produce units and then give them to small countries even though those countries couldn't realistically use them. I like the idea that New Zealand can field a fleet of Battleships imported from the US even though we have nothing but sheep to fuel them with but it's not very realistic. (NZ is a good example because we had ok 'supply' but it was only for infantry/cavalry units. We had practically no oil in the grand scheme of things)

Yes a large country can do that, however what you said can be said about every sort of equipment. I guess that you also receive the resources need to operate the land leased equipment.

You cant plan ahead. You cant build 10,000 tanks as Greece and then invade Romania to get the oil to run them. It means pre-war oil production is vastly more important than capturing or maintaining oil production during the war."

You can plan ahead because you can start the tank production line and allow it to build up efficiency as well as some tanks however it is very risk as it should be. And unlike what you say it will be very important to have access to oil at all time because production will need oil every single day to operate at 100% as you can not stockpile oil of later use.

Technologically savvy countries such as Germany and the UK will get an unfair advantage as they will suffer fewer losses and thus need less oil. Not so technologically savvy countries such as Soviet, Hungary, Italy and China will be on the disadvantaged end.

Technology is much more even in HOI4 then is predecessor like Italy will be as strong as Germany then it comes to tech with about 4-5 tech slots each and the minimum number of tech slot a country can have is 1. Better tech is better and so should it be. We don't know if late tech stuff however need more resources, like chromium have been stated to be for the most advanced tanks. Again you base your oil need around losses instead of production, yes a country that lose alot would need alot of production to recover these losses but as equipment have no base resource cost you don't know who need more oil because if Soviet is able to produce twice as many tanks for the same resources as Germany, Soviet can take twice the losses for the same investment.

Countries that are likely to suffer oil shortages will have the most important of their oil consuming units categorically techrushed by the player. Losing units means losing oil and this cannot be afforded if oil is to be scarce.

What you are saying is very risk, tech rushing is expansive and basing everything around a doubtful resources is like putting a foot in the grave from day one. Yes this gamble can work but then I don't you will be in deep trouble. I would rather tech rush something I know I always have good access to because that way Im risking less.

The player will feel the need to micromanage his most oil consuming forces if he is short on oil to avoid losses that cannot be replaced due to lack of oil.

More or less the same as if fuel was a resource because you would then need to conserve fuel.

As your armed forces run on fairy dust, the strategic importance of oil will greatly diminish. All oil consuming units are oil per se, meaning everyone can do with relatively little oil as long as they don't take too many losses. Some wars, such as the Abyssinian war for Italy and the Norwegian campaign for Germany can be fought without consuming any oil at all.

You underestimate the power of attrition. If you base your army around oil equipment you will need oil because you can not afford the production slowdown for lacking oil. If you are unable to supply the army with equipment the army will collapse and doing a transition into a non oil army will be extreamly painful and sure loss in a large war.

As armies run on fairy dust, also the tactical importance of oil will greatly diminish. There will no longer be an incentive to cut of oil supplies to the enemy so that his air force in given province is grounded or his tanks stopped dead in their tracks..

If you read the DD you will see that you can still hurt armies by qutting them off. Aircrafts and Ships are vulnerable because they need a supply line to operate.

The German, Italian and Japanese AI is screwed. As always, they take huge losses against the human player, only that this time they cannot replace them due to oil shortages. This is especially true if you are playing as the US or Soviet and can deny the axis oil (equipment) though trade.

You don't have much control over who your resources are exported to because trade work on the principe of the free market. You can still produce equipment that wan't oil even without access to oil but as said many times before production of such equipment will not be effective. These countries can atleast build
synthetic plants to get atleast some oil. We don't know how the game will play out yet because so much have been changed

Instead of stockpiling oil, players will now stockpile equipment, arguably leading to even weirder and more unhistorical games than in HOI3.

We don't know how it will play out yet but HOI3 stockpiles was more or less unlimited which don't seems to be the case in HOI4

 

[KiwiNoob]

Turns out I underestimated Japan's pre-war oil reserves. 38.000 barrels stockpiled, 41.000 consummed in the entire 1942. 29.000 barrels produced.

A battleship's gas tank is about 70,000 barrels so not sure about those numbers

 

[steve.bd]

Don't know if discussed before but I notice now that, according to this screen-shot, it is possible to rotate the game map.

 

[Cardus]

I don't understand, could you clarify?


Yes, of course they did, I only mentioned that to highlight the realism of HoI3 logistics (relative to what we'll get in HoI4).

In fact if you have a look at your ratings you got to that post my "agree"

Lets take a look
We don't know how it will play out yet but HOI3 stockpiles was more or less unlimited which don't seems to be the case in HOI4

The supply system in HOI4 is without any supply. If for you that is fine there is no problem, the only thing is that the system is quite unrealistic (which for some may break immersion).

PS
As I said in other posts HOI4 is going to be an expansion of CK/EU in the sense that will share much of the design/engine/technology (in terms of coding) of those games. As HOI was difficult for "standard gamers" (like those that love arcades as Magika/CK/EU) I think that this choice makes sense from the business point of view as it will expand the customer base. Those that like "grognards games" will be disappointed instead. I hope first of later to see a fork to get the game I like.

 

[Poh]

Don't know if discussed before but I notice now that, according to this screen-shot, it is possible to rotate the game map.

The engine can do that, but they only use it for screenshots, promotional stuff etc. You wont be able to do it in the game normally from what i understood.

 

[Denkt]

It's not a war simulation game.

Agree, in the first developer diary which they talk about what they wan't the game to be, there is alot of mention about high level strategy but not much about simulation. They say it is a ww2 game however at the start of the game ww2 have not yet started but the premise is that ww2 will start, just that it not necessarily in the same form as ww2 in real life.

The game is more focused on making things strategical sound above that of making things realistically sound.

HoI series is supposed to be a war simulation game

It is up to the developers on what HOI series is about

 

[grandad1982]

In fact if you have a look at your ratings you got to that post my "agree"


The supply system in HOI4 is without any supply. If for you that is fine there is no problem, the only thing is that the system is quite unrealistic (which for some may break immersion).

PS
As I said in other posts HOI4 is going to be an expansion of CK/EU in the sense that will share much of the design/engine/technology (in terms of coding) of those games. As HOI was difficult for "standard gamers" (like those that love arcades as Magika/CK/EU) I think that this choice makes sense from the business point of view as it will expand the customer base. Those that like "grognards games" will be disappointed instead. I hope first of later to see a fork to get the game I like.

EU and CK aren't for "standard gamers" they are still way more complex than most games people play. I only know one person how tried EU in real life and he found it to complex yet he's a full blooded gamer.

 

[KiwiNoob]

Just so wrong....

A lack of oil will most certainly mean defeat however defeat will not come instantly but slowly. Nations that lack oil are encouraged to play the navy game very aggresive because they need to either end it early, get access to oil or block enemy access to oil or iron. If they don't the enemy will eventually defeat them with both quality and quantity.

If Japan has access to no oil their defeat should not come after 3 years of land attrition and slower naval production. It should happen quickly. Planes grounded, ships unable to sortie, tanks and mechanised units stationary = quick loss.

The production system of HOI4 is based around static production lines that are seldom changed. This mean that if both countries have the same production lines they will need the same access to oil no matter what losses they take because equipments have no upkeep or even cost resource because it is the factories that cost strategic resources to produce stuff. But no matter how many equipment they produce they will need the same amount of reosources.

You're not planning to run your country very well. If you don't need any tanks because you're not losing many you switch some of your production to planes, use the oil in your dockyards or switch your factories to newer models as you can afford the production efficiency loss. At the same time the poorly performing player does not have these choices.

It will have effects, not instantaneously but over the long run. Loss of oil mean that production of everything that need oil will slow down. In the long run that will mean less ships, less tanks, less aircrafts and so on. Combined with techs that can quickly turn fatal. If you build your whole army around equipment that needs oil, your army will be build around oil and if you no longer can keep up production because lack of oil your army will collapse quickly.

You're contradicting yourself. You start by saying it'll be in the long run then end by saying it'll happen quickly. Should have stuck with the first line - it will happen in the long run and that's not cool.

A larger army based around oil using equipment will also need more factories dedicated to produce these equpiments thus need more oil.

You totally missed the point. 1000 tanks should use 1000 tanks worth of oil. It shouldn't matter how fast they are being destroyed.

Yes a large country can do that, however what you said can be said about every sort of equipment. I guess that you also receive the resources need to operate the land leased equipment.

Such a big difference between sending someone some AK-47's and ammo vs a battleship and a lifetime supply of oil

You can plan ahead because you can start the tank production line and allow it to build up efficiency as well as some tanks however it is very risk as it should be. And unlike what you say it will be very important to have access to oil at all time because production will need oil every single day to operate at 100% as you can not stockpile oil of later use.

Again - you're running your country into the ground. You don't operate a large number of production lines at a horrible efficiency for years leading up to a war. That's not a winning formula

Again you base your oil need around losses instead of production, yes a country that lose alot would need alot of production to recover these losses but as equipment have no base resource cost you don't know who need more oil because if Soviet is able to produce twice as many tanks for the same resources as Germany, Soviet can take twice the losses for the same investment.

That doesn't even make sense. Why would the soviets be able to produce twice the number of tanks as Germany for the same resources?

What you are saying is very risk, tech rushing is expansive and basing everything around a doubtful resources is like putting a foot in the grave from day one. Yes this gamble can work but then I don't you will be in deep trouble. I would rather tech rush something I know I always have good access to because that way Im risking less.

Good point. Tell Japan that they shouldn't build a navy because oil is a risky resource for them. WW2 definitely would have been shorter in the Pacific.

The opposite is true - because their supply is shaky under this system they MUST build as much of their navy as possible pre-war. The player then has to tech rush to try and make the most out of their pre-war ships.

 

[steve.bd]

The engine can do that, but they only use it for screenshots, promotional stuff etc. You wont be able to do it in the game normally from what i understood.

 

[Denkt]

If Japan has access to no oil their defeat should not come after 3 years of land attrition and slower naval production. It should happen quickly. Planes grounded, ships unable to sortie, tanks and mechanised units stationary = quick loss.

Because you lose access to oil would not mean your tanks stop running because you would have stored up fuel.

You're not planning to run your country very well. If you don't need any tanks because you're not losing many you switch some of your production to planes, use the oil in your dockyards or switch your factories to newer models as you can afford the production efficiency loss. At the same time the poorly performing player does not have these choices.

You underestimate attrition. If you are wastly overproducing you can either create more division or change production.

You're contradicting yourself. You start by saying it'll be in the long run then end by saying it'll happen quickly. Should have stuck with the first line - it will happen in the long run and that's not cool.

If you build your whole army around oil you will lose quickly if you lose access to oil.

You totally missed the point. 1000 tanks should use 1000 tanks worth of oil. It shouldn't matter how fast they are being destroyed.

What I said is that the more tanks you have on the field the more factories you will need to produce tank equipments to support the armored divisions which will cost more oil.

Again - you're running your country into the ground. You don't operate a large number of production lines at a horrible efficiency for years leading up to a war. That's not a winning formula

Like building alot of tanks that can not be used at all, I did not say it is the best way to win but I said how pre planing still exist in a new form.

That doesn't even make sense. Why would the soviets be able to produce twice the number of tanks as Germany for the same resources?

That did happen in HOI3 as well with the practical system.

The opposite is true - because their supply is shaky under this system they MUST build as much of their navy as possible pre-war. The player then has to tech rush to try and make the most out of their pre-war ships.

Yes Japan have to tech rush but it is as much about not having the ability to fight US on even terms as not having access to oil. Ships however are differen't case then armies and aircrafts because they have their own factory type. For tanks and aircrafts tech rushing is not so good because you can just tech rush something you know you can produce in large quantities under the war such as infantry equipment or artillery. For many countries synthetic factories can probably produce the oil needs for atleast their dockyards.

The supply system in HOI4 is without any supply.

Equipment are in HOI4 what supplies was in HOI3.

 

[Vlad_Constantin]

I can make an analogy of the current system. It's the same as saying that building 1 million tones of TNT and making that droppable by bombers is the same as building the A bomb, because the IC you invest in building the million tons would simulate the investment in the Bomb and 1 million tones of TNT will have the same effect as an atomic bomb. Now please tell me would you feel that it would be the same for you, even though gameplay wise and it would be the same. This is why people don't like the new system.

 

[NeFuRii]

Well, it's a big community, everyone has a slightly different view on what is the best course for the oil system to take.
It seems, though, most people agree more or less on what would be the proper way, while just a few others remain in denial.
The important thing now would be to wait for the pdox officials to make a statement, as probably neither side will ever convince the other. And it really comes down to whether paradox can/will make changes before the release, or can/will make changes in the future patches/expansions.

 

[Zoob]

I think it also comes down to whether paradox even want to make changes.

 

[Denkt]

The important thing now would be to wait for the pdox officials to make a statement, as probably neither side will ever convince the other. And it really comes down to whether paradox can/will make changes before release, or can/will make changes in the future patches/expansions.

Given that the developers have chosen to go from the direction you are asking them to return to I don't think they will change the system for your liking, maybe later but not on release. Adding fuel into the game can require a whole redesign of the game so it is not trival thing to ask for.

Like this screenshot tell us which direction the developers are going for and I know you don't like it.

 

[RogalDorn]

Really confused by the backlash here. You still need oil for your armies, it just gets wrapped up in making the equipment to replace equipment lost in attrition. Equipment is always breaking down when armies are on the move or fighting, so you need a steady influx of Oil to keep yourself going as it is going to be drained from creating new forces and simply equipment as it wears out. This is a super elegant solution to the issue of HOI3's broken and frustrating systems.

 

[NeFuRii]

Given that the developers have chosen to go from the direction you are asking them to return to I don't think they will change the system for your liking, maybe later but not on release. Adding fuel into the game can require a whole redesign of the game so it is not trival thing to ask for.

You don't know that without knowing it from paradox's point of view. They considered fuel at some stage it seems, as well as they have a supply system in place for equipment, so it's not unreasonable to say fuel even at this late stage is still possible.

Also, the fact is, it's "liking" of quite many people here. But again, it is their duty to estimate gains vs loses on this issue, not mine nor your.
They will make a decision and have to accept the consequences, it's simple really. If they strongly believe their system is better now without oil, they will force it despite me and other naysayers. And maybe they will prove they were right in the end.

However, until that day, I remain skeptical and refuse to buy it on day one.
(PS. so far the "no comment" stance from the officials indicates that they are either considering this, or just don't know how to reply and convince people)

EDIT:
And why wouldn't I like that screenshot? It's a really nice screenshot of a very good looking game. Handsome game I'd even say.

 

[Denkt]

You don't know that without knowing it from paradox's point of view. They considered fuel at some stage it seems, as well as they have a supply system in place for equipment, so it's not unreasonable to say fuel even at this late stage is still possible.

Yes they did but it just make it more likely that they will not return back.