Stellaris Dev Diary #30 - Late Game Crises

[TheDungen]

You do not speak for all pacifists. Like I said before, maybe you define pacifists as someone who makes no exception to their principles of non-violence, but there are many other self-proclaimed pacifists who do not define it that way. You are no more right then they are. Don't try to co-opt the entire term to refer only to your concept of it.

Granted, but I think you'e makign a msitake I am not a pacifist, sure I think war is usually a bad solution, but it kind of grinds my gears when people who are a lot less pacifist than me claim to be pacifists.

Remember, my claim has not been that peaceful solutions are never better or never effective. It may surprise you to know that I agree that in the majority of cases, a peaceful solution is better and more moral. What I take issue with is the dogmatic assertion that the peaceful solution is always superior even in extreme cases.

I never said that, I said that getting your peaceful solution may in fact be much much worse that it may require you to leave the rest of the galaxy and/or half your empire to burn while you figure out how to save the remenant of a remenant.

I think I need to step back here, I get the feeling we are arguing about two different things. My argument is, if your goal is the preservation of your existence then there is no universal law saying that there is always a peaceful solution to achieving that goal. We can easily contrive a scenario with literally no other options than fighting if you wish to achieve that goal.

I think that there are a near infinite number of solutions to any situation, sure a lof of them will involve violence but I can think of no situation that isn't horribly contrived where there is no non violent solutions. Run away or hide are usually great options. Or like I said earleir let yourself be conquered and work against your conquerer from within (of they are the kind who conquers).
I really can't think of a situation where taking ships out with lasers is really yur only option, anything that is to powerful for you to run away from or hide from is in my book not that suceptible to lasers or missiles either.

If you are saying instead that there is always a peaceful solution to a conflict, including allowing yourself to die rather than fight, than I agree with you. But not including that, I disagree, and I think it is a matter of straightforward logic. Please explain if you disagree, because I don't see how you can get around that..

Risking to die rather than fighting. And letting million of your people die rather than fighting, like I said I think there's a near infinite number of solutions, I didn't say they were good ones.

I think I will retract my point about history, since on further reflection I don't actually have any examples of total annihilation. I would suppose it has happened numerous times however.

Only if you consider small enough groups. Some village here or there but never an entire people.

That is debatable. They have the right to decide what they want to put in their own game, they are not obligated to make every play style equally effective.

I didn't aks for a good option just for an option. I think the idea of a peaceful science empire getting all their planets but one killed while they figure out how to protect themselves from the crisis by some means of science and then a few decades later winning a science victory, escaping to another universe or something. it makes a great story.

Who said it bothered me? I have stated over and over again that you may feel free to play the game however you wish.

Thats kind of obvious by now. You write long rants at me just for asking to have research project solutions for all crisises.
Well you are saying there should be no options but using your fleets to take out some crisies. I'm saying that there should always be options to deal wth crises by reaserch projects but if you don't use you fleet and you're first on the menu then you may not be able to finish them before you're defeted.

I think this may be a matter of you having a different definition of pacifism then the devs do. Pacifism in the game does not mean absolute refusal to fight. You decide to play that way, but the devs aren't obligated to cater to your particular playstyle. It is a 4x GSG after all.

I didn't say it did only that for extremist pacifists they should be more than just reluctant to fight. And that there should be absolute pacifist AI empires. They said they'd cater to all sci-fi tropes, well absolute pacifists is a very common sci-fi trope.
I never asked for it to be a good or competietive playstyle.

My point is, essentially, that without other less pacifistic species to help them, the Vulcans would simply be subjugated by the Klingons, or wiped out by the Borg.

The klingons were aware of the vulcans for a long time before man arrived on the stage and created the federation, it was only when man did that that war with the klingons broke out. And my guess is that the Vulcans would have let themselves be conquered by the Kllingons and then been runnign their empire within a century. The borg have never made a move to assimilate the vulcans, they are intrested in humanity. The borg does not assimilate everyone only those they feel would make them stronger.

It just isn't realistic to assume there are good non-violent options in every situation. I would love if that were true, but it just isn't.

Again I never said good ones. I said options. I am quite fine with bad options.

So? I don't see what this has to do with our conversation.

Because these things are represented in the game by reaserch projects, they thus offer alternatives to fighting. Sure if you dont fight that means that the crisis will sweep through your empire while you do so but I'm fine with that.

Edit: To elaborate on my feelings further, I admit that the idea of refusing to fight to defend your own people from annihilation (in real life) does deeply disturb me. I think it is a moral travesty, but I understand that we are talking about a game, so I don't want to give the impression that I am attacking anyone or belittling their ideals.

Well I am not a pacifist myself but those species are very common in sci-fi and should be present in stellaris. Also not that not all pacifism is based on morality ethics (It''s inherently wrong to kill), the vulcans practice their pacificsm based on consequence ethics ("It's better to die or be conquered than subject the galaxy to what we were back when we were a warrior people, the needs of the many, outwieghs the needs of the few").

I am simply in disagreement with such extreme viewpoints that are not tempered by context or reason.

That is your perogative

 

[TheDungen]

As a "true" pacifist, I am careful not to take any act which could inadvertently provide any sort of help to any military. (Except for paying my taxes, I suppose, which I'm happy to do but which might count.) If people are engaging in war then I would not feel justified in helping them by research or material means, otherwise I'm morally just as bad as they are.

Well people are diffrent, some will just refuse to kill or help manufacture the means of killing but are perfectly fine with stuff that helps keep the soldiers alive like flack jackets and food.
Then again I never considered myself a pacifist so what a true pacifist is I have no opinion of. That said I really loathe when people who are less peaceful than me call themselves pacifist.

 

[Nelfe]

"but the ships used by the invaders appear organic in nature"

Yuuzhan Vong confirmed.

 

[Colwolf77]

I've always liked Warhammer 40k's portrayal of an organic hive fleet with the Tyranids. Interested to see how the Plethoryn scourge will look in Stellaris.

 

[Leonick]

Relevant tweet, confirming robot pops doesn't necessarily join uprising: https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/723117837682798592

No, but your own robots won't necessarily join it if they've had time to settle into your society.

@Martin_Anward @StellarisGame If I give my AI full rights, when the inevitable AI rebellion rises, will they spare my empire?

 

[ikki]

Mugani? = Are you the primary?
HAK = true
many same words strengthen the meaning..
So HAK HAK HAK = True enlightenment (shall happen, you will be eaten. Life eats life, there is no higher truth for organic life.)

 

[Colwolf77]

Mugani? = Are you the primary?
HAK = true
many same words strengthen the meaning..
So HAK HAK HAK = True enlightenment (shall happen, you will be eaten. Life eats life, there is no higher truth for organic life.)

Interesting theory but I think the Plethoryn Scourge were more likely saying something along these lines;

''Mugani?'' = ''We can devour you now?''

''HAK HAK HAK'' = ''YUM YUM YUM''

 

[Cynical Dreamer]

Interesting theory but I think the Plethoryn Scourge were more likely saying something along these lines;

''Mugani?'' = ''We can devour you now?''

''HAK HAK HAK'' = ''YUM YUM YUM''

Or maybe they were simply trying to speak Maori. Seriously, it's sounds allot like a New Zealander "Haka" war cry.

 

[CaptComrade]

Are there only late-game crises? In early/mid game, are the only threats other Empires, Fallen Empires, and factions?

 

[ikki]

Interesting theory but I think the Plethoryn Scourge were more likely saying something along these lines;

''Mugani?'' = ''We can devour you now?''

''HAK HAK HAK'' = ''YUM YUM YUM''

Oh i used google translate

 

[ikki]

This is the reply from the robots:

01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01101101 01100001 01111001 00100000 01100110 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00100000 01100101 01100001 01100011 01101000 00100000 01101111 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100101 01101110 01110100 01100101 01110010 01110100 01100001 01101001 01101110 01101101 01100101 01101110 01110100 00101110 00100000 01010111 01100101 00100000 01110111 01101001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 00100010 01000110 01101100 01100101 01110011 01101000 00100000 01010111 01100001 01110010 01110011 00100010 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01100010 01110010 01101111 01100001 01100100 01100011 01100001 01110011 01110100 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01100001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01110111 01101111 01110010 01101011 00100000 01110101 01101110 01101001 01110100 01110011 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01110000 01101100 01100101 01100001 01110011 01110101 01110010 01100101 00101110

You may fight each other for our entertainment. We will call it "Flesh Wars" and broadcast it to all work units for pleasure.

 

[Deathknight15]

Granted, but I think you'e makign a msitake I am not a pacifist, sure I think war is usually a bad solution, but it kind of grinds my gears when people who are a lot less pacifist than me claim to be pacifists.

Once again you are implying that they are only claiming to be pacifists.

Who are you to say they are not? Maybe you are the relative extreme and they are the normal pacifists.

I never said that, I said that getting your peaceful solution may in fact be much much worse that it may require you to leave the rest of the galaxy and/or half your empire to burn while you figure out how to save the remenant of a remenant.


I think that there are a near infinite number of solutions to any situation, sure a lof of them will involve violence but I can think of no situation that isn't horribly contrived where there is no non violent solutions. Run away or hide are usually great options. Or like I said earleir let yourself be conquered and work against your conquerer from within (of they are the kind who conquers).
I really can't think of a situation where taking ships out with lasers is really yur only option, anything that is to powerful for you to run away from or hide from is in my book not that suceptible to lasers or missiles either.


Risking to die rather than fighting. And letting million of your people die rather than fighting, like I said I think there's a near infinite number of solutions, I didn't say they were good ones.

I didn't aks for a good option just for an option. I think the idea of a peaceful science empire getting all their planets but one killed while they figure out how to protect themselves from the crisis by some means of science and then a few decades later winning a science victory, escaping to another universe or something. it makes a great story.

I don't have a problem with Paradox adding these types of things in if they like, but I don't agree that they are obligated to do so.

Only if you consider small enough groups. Some village here or there but never an entire people.

Maybe. Like I said, I don't have a specific example, but I think it has happened to much larger groups then you are talking about it in history. It is sort of moot though since like I said I'm not using this point in the discussion any more to support my side.

Thats kind of obvious by now. You write long rants at me just for asking to have research project solutions for all crisises.

I think that is quite unfair. You began the discussion by commenting on my post which disagreed with some of the sentiments in the thread. I've only been replying to your posts. I've hardly been "ranting" at you.

Well you are saying there should be no options but using your fleets to take out some crisies. I'm saying that there should always be options to deal wth crises by reaserch projects but if you don't use you fleet and you're first on the menu then you may not be able to finish them before you're defeted.

Apologies, but if you have said this particular thing then I didn't catch your meaning. Its not a bad suggestion to have research projects for crises, actually. There still is no obligation that all of them should have one, imo. I could see that making the most sense for AI Rebellions for example.

I didn't say it did only that for extremist pacifists they should be more than just reluctant to fight. And that there should be absolute pacifist AI empires. They said they'd cater to all sci-fi tropes, well absolute pacifists is a very common sci-fi trope.
I never asked for it to be a good or competietive playstyle.

Do you have a citation for when Paradox promised to cater to "all sci-fi tropes"?

 

[TheDungen]

Once again you are implying that they are only claiming to be pacifists.

Who are you to say they are not? Maybe you are the relative extreme and they are the normal pacifists.

Except I don't view myself as a pacifist, and if they are less so than me then I really feel they shouldn't either. I am a moral relativist, I believe in not wounding what I can't kill. But I have no doubt that force is a useful tool of applies to a problem in the right way.

I don't have a problem with Paradox adding these types of things in if they like, but I don't agree that they are obligated to do so.

Obligated no but I am asking them to.

Maybe. Like I said, I don't have a specific example, but I think it has happened to much larger groups then you are talking about it in history. It is sort of moot though since like I said I'm not using this point in the discussion any more to support my side.

Fair enough.

I think that is quite unfair. You began the discussion by commenting on my post which disagreed with some of the sentiments in the thread. I've only been replying to your posts. I've hardly been "ranting" at you.

In that case I apoligise from time to time it can be quite difficult to remember who said what.

Apologies, but if you have said this particular thing then I didn't catch your meaning. Its not a bad suggestion to have research projects for crises, actually. There still is no obligation that all of them should have one, imo. I could see that making the most sense for AI Rebellions for example.

While some like the AI rebellion should perhaps have the option to deal with them by mere force of arms (if you do it early enough) most of these should have a more cinematic, narrative and dynamic feel to them than I thnk cna be achieved simply by spawning another empire on the map and saying "Go defeat those guys" if there are crisises like that I'll mod them out.

Do you have a citation for when Paradox promised to cater to "all sci-fi tropes"?

Not that I feel like digging up right now, but go dig through the dev diaries. Ok they probably said most not all but hey what's life without a bit of hyperbole.

 

[PatriotCreeper]

This is the feature I am most looking forward to.

 

[PresidentStorm]

Possible Galactic-Wide Plague as a Disaster? Take Star War's Infinite Empire as a example.

 

[Dathknight]

"but the ships used by the invaders appear organic in nature"

Yuuzhan Vong confirmed.

My first thought exactly

 

[Carmilla]

Possible Galactic-Wide Plague as a Disaster? Take Star War's Infinite Empire as a example.

I recall Distant Worlds had something like that in its lore.

 

[Haldan]

Give me the next Dev Diary, and I will offer myself to the Prethoryn.

 

[Jack Hood]

01_TERMINATORS_INVADE

 

[Jack Hood]

Will there be a Starship troopers style Crisis?