PDS Games use American English

[mudcrabmerchant]

Just food for thought, American English is actually closer to Shakespearean English while modern Queen's English has many French influences. So really, if you want true English you need to go to the Americans for your closest representation of the historical paradigm.

Not really. Certainly Elizabethan English was still rhotic, but we had a lot of other changes that RP didn't, and the amount of change in RP and General American are probably roughly comparable. I'd guess that high register Brit speech uses more poorly adapted French phrases, but I'm sure pretentious upper crust twats do that over here as well.

The most conservative dialects are those of northern Britain, especially, I think, Scottish (and I don't necessarily mean Scots). Irish English is also particularly conservative with vowel qualities, and there are a lot of speakers who speak dialects that have lost a lot of the particularly Irish features which diverge from early English pronunciation.

 

[tass]

I got to say I love this thread. Not because it has much of a point, for the most part. But his is like the amusing version of what I worked with in class
So I am just going to be picking at some random quotes from the last 10 pages, with different motivations. Some comments are gonna be a little academic, some just personal opinion or preference. I'll cleary mark the latter (always a good thing to do).

Why this choice? Is this something people here on the forums appreciate, or dislike? I believe, but might be wrong, that a majority of the playerbase should be more used to the standard, global, British English.

Both British English and American English are standards and both are global in their impact. And both are equally artificial in their constructions as just that. We also have to make a distinction between spelling, grammar and pronounciation here.

Especially where pronounciation is concerned, Received Pronounciation (aka British, "BBC" or "Queen's" English) is a highly constructed standard that hardly speaks as to what is really in common everyday usage. The same, alas a little differently, applies to what is often referred to as "General American". More than anything else it's an umbrella term for some sort of middle ground. Again, you'll have trouble to find it in common everyday use.

Where writing is concerned, you'll find the borders between the two to be beginning to blur increasingly, assuming there ever were strict borders. It's outright wrong to assume that what once constituted the British Empire strictly follows the British English writing (anymore). And while British English may have once been an ideal in class, the shift is towards an equal treatment of both. In class we usually learned both, with the focus usually depending on the teacher's own preference/habbit/background. In university it was our own choice and all that ever mattered was consistence in writing.

In the end of the day formal preference now is often personal and mixed whereased pronounciation varies between either - or a mix.

[...]obviously the differences are nothing to do with who is smarter or who is cooler or whatever, it's just two different standards with a point of divergence. Anyone who says either set of spellings is stupid or uneducated or whatever is just a pretentious idiot.

Academically I have to agree with your conclusion. Personally I couldn't disagree more

Surely the point is that English was developed in ENGLAND over a 1000 years of time and is therefore the language that the English speak and write.

Yeah, no. Firstly at least get the numbers right. If you're gonna make a point like that, stick with everything that has "English" in it and was used in "England". Then the oldest would be "old-english", from the 5th century onward - roughly. So that makes 1500 years. However I'd be very careful about referring to all that as exclusively "English". Old-English was brought to England by the Anglo-Saxons. But surprisingly, even before that there was language in England (Celtic and Latin). Old English was also subject to Norse Influence - historical keyword: Danelaw. Then came the Norman-French influence and something we now categorise as middle-english arose. Over centuries that would eventually evolve into early modern english (Shakespearean time) and modern english as we know it. That leads me to conclude the following: English is a meltingpot of influences, some of which at the time were the language of Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, other Norse, French, Normans. The list actually goes on. It's going so far that some scientist have actually drawn the entire concept of language and English as a clearly definable language into question. I almost forgot that we were talking about British English in this thread. So at what point did we get to British English? Oh yes, English is also the language that the Scottish speak and write. And the language that the Irish speak and write. So that's why we call it British English? I hope you understand were I am going with this. Any language is the language of anyone that speaks and writes it.

You can't claim a language like a national achievement. Language is ever-evolving. And to begin with the term is both a pragmatic and academic attempt to categorise differences and conventions in language (mind the difference between "a language" and "language". Every language goes back to the time when the first words were spoken. And unless it dies, it keeps changing and mixing with other languages. Languages can even do so after their assumed death. See for example Latin.

All other versions of the language are NOT English - they are modified in one way or another and need to have a modified name, like Indian English, Canadian English, American English etc.

Just the same as Brazilian Portuguese, Canadian French, Mexican Spanish etc.

Just look at the language settings in your PC to see the multiple versions of the major languages. Windows 7 currently lists 16 versions of English, 6 versions of French, 20 versions of Spanish etc. by country.

Of course they are English, what else would they be? French? German? They're variants of English.

English: The actual language. British English, American English and so on: Variants of the former.

Just feels more sophisticated.

Kind of like how British accents feel better in fantasy dramas. Can you imagine Game of Thrones if it used all the various accents of north America? Starks talking like Canadians, Dorne like Texans?

That's only due to cultural perception though. Firstly we often feel that in scenarios even slightly reminiscent of medieval times, British variants are more appropriate (because at the time the Americas hadn't even been discovered yet). Also, especially to the American audience, British variants just feel that extra bit away, which helps the pseudo-medieval setting.

Personally, I think spelling-wise though, the U.S is more consistent and in line with pronunciation, simply because that was their original intention when they were tried to standardize English in their country. This removed some of the inconsistencies in English brought by the influences of other languages, such as French.

Beyond that though, it is really just a matter of preference, or perhaps, for some of the people complaining here, a matter of pride

I agree that it is a matter of preference (and even pride). I'd like to add perspective, as that is what you first argument would fall under IMO. Why?

I prefer British English, finding it way more consistent - at least in writing. But my perspective could be different. I had 9 years of French at school, so I may be more inclined to accept these French influences - and they wouldn't strike me as odd. I'd simply accept a few French norms as part of the English language, in pronounciation and writing.

That said I'd like to put a disclaimer: I have a preference for British English in writing, but I am inconsistent in my pronounciation, and sometimes even choice of vocabulary.

Erm, what?

English as first language:
USA - 256m

Canada - 20m
India - 0m
Australia - 15m
UK - 59m
total 94m


Total English speakers:
USA - 298m

Canada - 28m
India - 125m
Australia - 17m
UK - 64m
total 234m

You forgot New Zeeland. Really! Oh, and poor, poor Ireland. Although numbers may suggest you absorbed Ireland into the UK - how could you?!

And what do we do with native creole speakers in the Carribean? And South Africa, Nigeria and Singapore?

It is one of only two accepted official languages. And yeah like most of the commonwealth it uses the brittish spelling. Just look the the top countrie sby speakers:
The US obviously use US spelling
India Uses UK spelling
Pakistan Uses UK spelling
Nigeria uses UK spelling
I havent even mentioned the UK yet and we're already above the population of the US. And that's only counting the english speakers in these countries.

Yes, if you count people as "English Speakers" whos native language isn't English. You're mixing Official language, native language, second language and all that wildly.

Or if you want a more interactive map where you can mouse over every US county to see more detailed breakdowns, check out: http://www.popvssoda.com/

I motion that P-dox urgently incorporate this crucial issue into its games using EUIV culture and religion mechanics merged with Victoria pops mechanics. I'm a native of pop country who's part of a diaspora pop residing in soda country. I refuse to be force-converted, because in the term "soda pop," soda is the adjective and pop is the noun. So I'm saving up all my ducats so I can activate Defender of the Faithful on behalf of the one true nomenclature for carbonated beverages.

I love studies like these. Really do! Anyone remember when they tried to compare countries economies based on what a McDondalds burger costs? Apparently some of these burgers are among the most comparabale and standardised products on the entire planet!

I don't really care, both dialects are similar enough that one can understand another (more than I can say about French and French Canadian. My Metropolitan French friend doesn't understand anything in Quebec)

You're mixing up spoken variants and formal standards. I am pretty sure your French friend has no issues understanding your writing. And I dare suggest that speakers of different variants of English can have just the same issues understanding each other, when they stick to their geographical, social or ethnic variants. There's no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Seems to me that, if the supporters of British English really want to advocate for their language, they should just roll up their sleeves and get Britain back to being the dominant power on the planet. Too much work? Too bad. Learn American English. Having your language and/dialect be the dominant lingua franca is one of the perks of empire, and Britain gave theirs up (with a few nudges from America).

Cheeseburgers?

It's probably just cheaper let's be honest here and say how it really works. Of course is British English stylistically clearly superior, this isn't even debatable. And I'm not even a native speaker or high level... If only the education of the masses would be taken a bit more into the equation, PDX would be the ideal game producer to do this, since the quality is already really high.

Another time where my personal preference may agree, but actually this claim in fact is very much debatable.

This is such a ridiculous thread. English around the world is grammatically identical. Plus, arguing about spelling in English is pointless cause it's not like there is a system that makes sense. Tons of words are absorbed from other languages while retaining their original spelling and other words are from such a long time ago that their spellings are detached from the way they are pronounced.

The only time English is confusing is when it is idiomatic or colloquial. Good fucking luck then.

I agree with you, across the board. Except that English around the world in fact isn't grammatically identical

Edit: I almost forgot..

It's pretty early so any mistakes I made or inconsistencies in my choice of formal standard are just part of my very own standard, called "TASSISH English". It's in all means superiour and I will impose it on all of you with my great fleet of cool space ships. Oh and feel free to conduct a study on it.

 

[TheDungen]

Yes, if you count people as "English Speakers" whos native language isn't English. You're mixing Official language, native language, second language and all that wildly.

Does it matter? The vast majority of english speaker in the world does not have it as their native tounge and because is british imperialism pretty much everyone outside the US and perhaps europe will use British spelling.
Until paradox offer the game in hindi, pakistani and so on they are going to be using the english version.

 

[tass]

Does it matter? The vast majority of english speaker in the world does not have it as their native tounge and because is british imperialism pretty much everyone outside the US and perhaps europe will use British spelling.
Until paradox offer the game in hindi, pakistani and so on they are going to be using the english version.

Why is it then that we are not having this conversation in French? Or Latin? Just because something has once been dominant, that doesn't mean it must always be. Or should.

Also: I suggest you actually go look at these countries that you are lining up in the "US vs. everyone else once under British rule"-equation and check whether they're English really is as pure, sorry I meant "British" as you make it for the purpose of your argument.

Last but not least, if we're making an argument like this, we should take the relative importance of these countries markets for gaming and Paradox in particular into account. I am sure there's people from Pakistan or India playing this game, but I am also sure that for the time being their importance to Paradox's sales is neglectable compared to the US or any major European country.

 

[TheDungen]

Why is it then that we are not having this conversation in French? Or Latin? Just because something has once been dominant, that doesn't mean it must always be. Or should.

Also: I suggest you actually go look at these countries that you are lining up in the "US vs. everyone else once under British rule"-equation and check whether they're English really is as pure, sorry I meant "British" as you make it for the purpose of your argument.

Last but not least, if we're making an argument like this, we should take the relative importance of these countries markets for gaming and Paradox in particular into account. I am sure there's people from Pakistan or India playing this game, but I am also sure that for the time being their importance to Paradox's sales is neglectable compared to the US or any major European country.

Like I said earlier in europe it comes down to personal preference.
In many ways it's like the metric system, everyone does one thing and the US does another... then again the british drive on the left so they are hardly free from that either.

 

[aitaituo]

Like I said earlier in europe it comes down to personal preference.
In many ways it's like the metric system, everyone does one thing and the US does another... then again the british drive on the left so they are hardly free from that either.

Things would be simpler if everyone spoke Frankish.

 

[TheDungen]

Things would be simpler if everyone spoke Frankish.

ok...

 

[Dominico]

My issue is in games like ck and eu its american spelling which look wrong. Also a lot of the flavour text has been written by someone with an American background I guess because some of it just sounds completely wrong I wish I could rewrite some of the stories. That for me is hugely immersion breaking. In space games and not so bothered because the reality is in the future language probably will be text speak or American style.

The reality is simple English will become dominant as English is too complex for many people.

 

[TheDungen]

My issue is in games like ck and eu its american spelling which look wrong. Also a lot of the flavour text has been written by someone with an American background I guess because some of it just sounds completely wrong I wish I could rewrite some of the stories. That for me is hugely immersion breaking. In space games and not so bothered because the reality is in the future language probably will be text speak or American style.

The reality is simple English will become dominant as English is too complex for many people.

Actually by the point that we reach out into space another lingua franca may well have replaced english. My guesses would be chinese (for obvious reasons), spanish/portuguese (if latin america got their corruption under control and started workign in the same direction they could be a serious challanger), german (If the EU becomes a country and germany's population is not eclipsed by the uk or france), or french (if the EU become a country andthe current projections hold french will be the most common native language in the union before the end of the century) as the possible contenders.

 

[Cairo-East]

A page from a McGuffey Eclectic Reader. First published in the 1830s in America the McGuffey Reader became one of the biggest selling book series of all time. Practically every schoolhouse in America had these books, which taught spelling, writing, and pronunciation to decades of 19th century children--many from non-English backgrounds. Along with Webster's Dictionary it's one of the main reasons why there are few dialectic differences west of the Mississippi River (areas settled after 1840) and the standard for "American English" spelling and pronunciation.

Interesting that it's been largely forgotten while Webster's Dictionary is well-known.

 

[Dominico]

Actually by the point that we reach out into space another lingua franca may well have replaced english. My guesses would be chinese (for obvious reasons), spanish/portuguese (if latin america got their corruption under control and started workign in the same direction they could be a serious challanger), german (If the EU becomes a country and germany's population is not eclipsed by the uk or france), or french (if the EU become a country andthe current projections hold french will be the most common native language in the union before the end of the century) as the possible contenders.

Thats fascinating but i cant see that being correct. I would doubt french will dominate Europe though they would like it. From my experience most every nationality speaks english as their second language, my spanish friends visiting germany will speak english to them, the germans will speak english back. So they communicate in english. Back in medieval times yes french was the court language but i would argue now English is the worlds language and there is little likelihood that will reverse.

Also as for Chinese i think very few people have interest in learning that over english, i could see Chinese as a dominant language in the future only if there is a war and China dominates the globe. (which of course is a possibility)

But we will never know!

 

[TheDungen]

Thats fascinating but i cant see that being correct. I would doubt french will dominate Europe though they would like it. From my experience most every nationality speaks english as their second language, my spanish friends visiting germany will speak english to them, the germans will speak english back. So they communicate in english. Back in medieval times yes french was the court language but i would argue now English is the worlds language and there is little likelihood that will reverse.

Also as for Chinese i think very few people have interest in learning that over english, i could see Chinese as a dominant language in the future only if there is a war and China dominates the globe. (which of course is a possibility)

But we will never know!

Because that's out current lingua franca, but like every language that has been lingua franca before it will eventually lose the status. Greek lost it to latin, latin to french, french to english and so on. We have no idea which language will hold the torch tomorrow, could go back to french, could be german, could be some outlier, or even several languages who drift toghether as they borrow words from each other.

And I doubt it'd take a war for china to dominate the globe. If the US crumbles and the EU fails then it is pretty much the default. There's no other superpower of similiar stature left.

Remember english's sojourn as lingua france has lasted a mere heartbeat, at most two centuries, while french held the position for a half a millenia before that and latin for almost twice as much before it, and greek about as long before that.

Like I said I find it very unlikely that these shifts will for some reason magically stop, I think it's mostly bias from out own time, My guess was that for the romans or french the idea that they might one say not be the language of the world seemed equally prepostrous.

 

[aitaituo]

Thats fascinating but i cant see that being correct. I would doubt french will dominate Europe though they would like it. From my experience most every nationality speaks english as their second language, my spanish friends visiting germany will speak english to them, the germans will speak english back. So they communicate in english. Back in medieval times yes french was the court language but i would argue now English is the worlds language and there is little likelihood that will reverse.

Also as for Chinese i think very few people have interest in learning that over english, i could see Chinese as a dominant language in the future only if there is a war and China dominates the globe. (which of course is a possibility)

But we will never know!

Chinese has an additional hurdle in its writing system. There is a persistent minority of Chinese people who want to do away with entirely in favor of an alphabet. Without Chinese political or economic hegemony, most people aren't going to bother with the trouble for an auxiliary language. Other languages that use Chinese character based writing systems have faced a constant struggle against simplifications or replacements.

 

[Dominico]

Because that's out current lingua franca, but like every language that has been lingua franca before it will eventually lose the status. Greek lost it to latin, latin to french, french to english and so on. We have no idea which language will hold the torch tomorrow, could go back to french, could be german, could be some outlier, or even several languages who drift toghether as they borrow words from each other.

And I doubt it'd take a war for china to dominate the globe. If the US crumbles and the EU fails then it is pretty much the default. There's no other superpower of similiar stature left.

Remember english's sojourn as lingua france has lasted a mere heartbeat, at most two centuries, while french held the position for a half a millenia before that and latin for almost twice as much before it, and greek about as long before that.

Like I said I find it very unlikely that these shifts will for some reason magically stop, I think it's mostly bias from out own time, My guess was that for the romans or french the idea that they might one say not be the language of the world seemed equally prepostrous.

Yeah good points. I think the similarity of all those languages is they spread by conquest culture and desire of other peoples to be british roman or french.
Now we have the internet which is hugely dominated by English spoken and written. To the extent most young people now are saturated by it and most foreign people have an amazing grasp of it compared to 20 years ago. The current direction implies workout some major shift of some new culture (who) or a war english will dominate. Like latin became spoken in roman provinces and our moden languages sprang from that i feel, although not definate as you say, english is a pretty certain bet on dominating.

 

[TheDungen]

Yeah good points. I think the similarity of all those languages is they spread by conquest culture and desire of other peoples to be british roman or french.
Now we have the internet which is hugely dominated by English spoken and written. To the extent most young people now are saturated by it and most foreign people have an amazing grasp of it compared to 20 years ago. The current direction implies workout some major shift of some new culture (who) or a war english will dominate. Like latin became spoken in roman provinces and our moden languages sprang from that i feel, although not definate as you say, english is a pretty certain bet on dominating.

Actually no, latin did not spread with the roman conquests greek was the lingua franca for the roman empire, latin became it because of the spread of catholicism, similiarly it was not the conquests of alexander that made greek a lingua franca but rather that greek traders became a powerful force in the miditerranean. And I wouldn't say that people wanted to be these peoples they wanted to share in their prosperity.

And english will certainly contribute to the languages of the world, it already has but nothing lasts forever and both british and american hegemony were fairly short lasting affairs. Both lasting less than a century each.
While english is still the lingua franca it's hardly coincidence that since china is now the richest country on earth a lot of people are learning chinese these days. While englsih could serve as a common language of comunication to some extent in dealing with chinese, knowing the language of those you want to do buiness with is an undeniable advantage.

Chinese has an additional hurdle in its writing system. There is a persistent minority of Chinese people who want to do away with entirely in favor of an alphabet. Without Chinese political or economic hegemony, most people aren't going to bother with the trouble for an auxiliary language. Other languages that use Chinese character based writing systems have faced a constant struggle against simplifications or replacements.

Like I said an increasing number of people are learning chinese. At least here in sweden.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Dutchie here, I learned British English in school, but use American English the majority of the time, because I have had some "pleasant" encounters with some "patriots" from America, who hated on me because I used British English. In general I really don't care which is used, but American English is probably the best because the British can accept that American English exists, while some "patriotic" yanks go insane when they see honour, valour or favourite. It will save some people of a headache, explaining British English to them.

 

[TheDungen]

Dutchie here, I learned British English in school, but use American English the majority of the time, because I have had some "pleasant" encounters with some "patriots" from America, who hated on me because I used British English. In general I really don't care which is used, but American English is probably the best because the British can accept that American English exists, while some "patriotic" yanks go insane when they see honour, valour or favourite. It will save some people of a headache, explaining British English to them.

Actually people like that come from both sides of the pond. I had my british english teacher correct me when I pronounced the r in iron.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Actually people like that come from both sides of the pond. I had my british english teacher correct me when I pronounced the r in iron.

Yeah, I am sure of that. Just seems like Patriots are more common, from personal experience. I have not seen any Brits correcting my American English in 5 years of using it, while I had like 12 Americans correcting me for using British English, in one month, both on the same site: Reddit, 4 of which were on the United Kingdom subreddit!

 

[aitaituo]

Actually no, latin did not spread with the roman conquests greek was the lingua franca for the roman empire, latin became it because of the spread of catholicism, similiarly it was not the conquests of alexander that made greek a lingua franca but rather that greek traders became a powerful force in the miditerranean. And I wouldn't say that people wanted to be these peoples they wanted to share in their prosperity.

And english will certainly contribute to the languages of the world, it already has but nothing lasts forever and both british and american hegemony were fairly short lasting affairs. Both lasting less than a century each.

Latin spread during the Roman empire. That's why Romance languages are spoken outside of Italy. The Empire was largely bilingual.

One wonders who is the current hegemon if America's sun has already set.

 

[TheDungen]

Latin spread during the Roman empire. That's why Romance languages are spoken outside of Italy. The Empire was largely bilingual.

One wonders who is the current hegemon if America's sun has already set.

No one has total hegomony, China has economic hegemony, while america still has military hegemony. And you'll notice that only the frontiers ended up speaking romance languages.Places where before the romans there were only "barbarians". To a large extent these places were not converted to roman culture but actually settled by romans.