[Mod] Tides of Warcraft (Formerly: Azerothian Kings) - Looking for assistance!

[Teelvade]

Wanted to give you guys a peak at the Amani Empire breakdown. (note: colors are not final)

Spoiler

Wouldnt the Winteraxe hold the snowy Alterac mountains?

And you should probably give the Vilebranch "their" area (hinterlands) while the revantusk are further away (explaining that since they were far away very few were able to flee all the way to the hinterlands and establish the territory they have in the "present day" while the vilebranch are the strongest because they have held on).

Not to mention that it would be weird for the Revantusk to lose the southern forest troll capital of Jintha'Alor to the Vilebranch when it hasn't fallen to humans for hundreds of years even while being a stones throw away from the Arathorian capital, Wildhammer capital, the second largest location of human mages (Caer Darrow), Tyrs Hand and a major elven outpost.

Also, I would like to ask people who disagreed with this comment to explain themselves, why do they think Chronicle information about Stormwind´s nomenclature is wrong.

Bloody lazy by Blizzard is what it was...
It went from being "Kingdom of Azeroth" on the warcraft 2 scoreboard into the "continent of Azeroth" describing the southern part of eastern kingdoms and then onto becoming the "World of Azeroth"...

Thats like starting to call all of Asia 'India' because India is a part of it and then when it catches on you start calling the whole planet India...

@blckdrgn how is the progress in the different areas?
Faces?
Flags?
Triggers?
Events?
Unit models?
Specific race laws/triggers/traits?
Terrain?
Bringing the Horde in?
The other continents?

 

[DorlasAnther]

Bloody lazy by Blizzard is what it was...
It went from being "Kingdom of Azeroth" on the warcraft 2 scoreboard into the "continent of Azeroth" describing the southern part of eastern kingdoms and then onto becoming the "World of Azeroth"...

That´s because in Warcraft I, Azeroth was the only thing that was created. Warcraft I orc campain ended with destruction of all humans. Only in Warcraft II they changed it to destruction of the only kingdom. And later, when they chose world´s name (well, "chose", as they most likely thought about the world as Azeroth, but the world was synonymous with the kingdom at that time) and it made no sense for a kingdom to be called Azeroth and then renamed to Stormwind. So they retconned it, just as they did many times, when backstory from the old games (which were awful in terms of story, I mean, it was classic "good humans vs bad monsters" kind of story) stood in their way.
As someone who used to write fantasy stories (nothing special, just to pass the time) I understand the feeling you have when your earlier work stands in the way and you have to make choice to either go on with stupid things you did previously or just retcon it. And while I chose to somehow explain those stupid world designs, I don´t judge anyone who chooses to just retcon it, especially when all they have to retcon is written information in handbook to the old game.

 

[Teelvade]

That´s because in Warcraft I, Azeroth was the only thing that was created. Warcraft I orc campain ended with destruction of all humans.

Technically wrong.
If you play the human campaign you rek blackrock spire and defeat the horde, become crowned king and live happily ever after.
They picked Horde win for wc1 since if the horde lost there wouldnt have been any plot of the second game (except beyond the dark portal but that would screw their plans to use dwarves and elves).

Only in Warcraft II they changed it to destruction of the only kingdom. And later, when they chose world´s name (well, "chose", as they most likely thought about the world as Azeroth, but the world was synonymous with the kingdom at that time) and it made no sense for a kingdom to be called Azeroth and then renamed to Stormwind. So they retconned it, just as they did many times, when backstory from the old games (which were awful in terms of story, I mean, it was classic "good humans vs bad monsters" kind of story) stood in their way.

Yet there was absolutely no need to rename any of it.
They could just as well have named the planet Mar Sara and it would have been canon and not fucked up the entire existing lore up until that point...
The world was not synonymous with Azeroth until World of Warcraft, Medievh has several speeches in Warcraft 3 about "This world" when talking of legion invasions but never says Azeroth when talking about it, some mention Azeroth while in outland/draenor but that might just be because the Dark Portal (in wc2) leads there so the only place you can actually travel to directly is Azeroth.
As i mentioned before in the first intro cinematic the map says Azeroth (and a tiny floating star saying STORMWIND at stormwind) yet says Khaz'Modan at Khaz and Lordaeron at Lordaeron.

As someone who used to write fantasy stories (nothing special, just to pass the time) I understand the feeling you have when your earlier work stands in the way and you have to make choice to either go on with stupid things you did previously or just retcon it. And while I chose to somehow explain those stupid world designs, I don´t judge anyone who chooses to just retcon it, especially when all they have to retcon is written information in handbook to the old game.

Its no just that tho.
Its that they literally made up a word.
And then changed it.
They kept Lordaeron, Kul-Tiras, Gilneas, Alterac, Dalaran and Stromgarde (except they failed to spell strom several times) but changed ONE kingdom.

For no reason.

Literally no reason.

It would have made 0 difference to the existing lore to name the planet ANYTHING else.

And would retcon a whole nation and three games worth of existing lore just to steal its name and paste it on the planet.

 

[diablo630]

Wouldnt the Winteraxe hold the snowy Alterac mountains?

And you should probably give the Vilebranch "their" area (hinterlands) while the revantusk are further away (explaining that since they were far away very few were able to flee all the way to the hinterlands and establish the territory they have in the "present day" while the vilebranch are the strongest because they have held on).

Not to mention that it would be weird for the Revantusk to lose the southern forest troll capital of Jintha'Alor to the Vilebranch when it hasn't fallen to humans for hundreds of years even while being a stones throw away from the Arathorian capital, Wildhammer capital, the second largest location of human mages (Caer Darrow), Tyrs Hand and a major elven outpost.


Bloody lazy by Blizzard is what it was...
It went from being "Kingdom of Azeroth" on the warcraft 2 scoreboard into the "continent of Azeroth" describing the southern part of eastern kingdoms and then onto becoming the "World of Azeroth"...

Thats like starting to call all of Asia 'India' because India is a part of it and then when it catches on you start calling the whole planet India...

@blckdrgn how is the progress in the different areas?
Faces?
Flags?
Triggers?
Events?
Unit models?
Specific race laws/triggers/traits?
Terrain?
Bringing the Horde in?
The other continents?

--------------------------------
Faces ->not worked
Flags-> completed (but ill be going though them once more for finishing changes)
Triggers-> WIP
Events-> WIP
Unit Models-> not worked
Specific race laws/triggers/traits -> WIP
Terrian-> 1 or 2 more rounds of polishing
the Horde in-> ofcourse in later bookmarks.

 

[DorlasAnther]

And would retcon a whole nation and three games worth of existing lore just to steal its name and paste it on the planet.

When did they do that? They literally just said: "Its name wasn´t Azeroth, but Stormwind.". Everything else has happened exactly the same.
And I was talking about orc campaign, not human campaign. In orc campaign in Warcraft I, you defeated all humans on that world and in human campaign, you defeated all orcs.

 

[Teelvade]

When did they do that? They literally just said: "Its name wasn´t Azeroth, but Stormwind.". Everything else has happened exactly the same.

Except all the content up to that point said Azeroth.

And then they declared that it wasnt named Azeroth.

Imagine if they stand up at blizzcon and declare that Argus real name is Aiur.

That is about the same feeling.

And I was talking about orc campaign, not human campaign. In orc campaign in Warcraft I, you defeated all humans on that world and in human campaign, you defeated all orcs.

Im aware but you said it as if it was clear the humans lost before they decided on the existance of warcraft 2.
Before warcraft 2 there were two separate campaigns and thus either win was possible.

 

[DorlasAnther]

Im aware but you said it as if it was clear the humans lost before they decided on the existance of warcraft 2.
Before warcraft 2 there were two separate campaigns and thus either win was possible.

You completely misunderstood what I was saying. My point was that during Warcraft I, Azeroth (Stormwind) was the only thing in that world and basically a kingdom that represented all humans. I pointed out orc campaign as proof of that, as in its story, you destroy all humans (it doesn´t matter that human campaign ends differently, because destruction isn´t important, the important part is "all humans", as Stormwind was the only human kingdom in lore at that point). Existence of northern realms was a retcon, where instead of being obliterated, humans left to the lands in the north.
What I am trying to say is that at the time of Warcraft I, the only thing from world of Azeroth we knew was Kingdom of Azeroth.

 

[diablo630]

Well just want to post this short timelapse i made from awhile ago

 

[Teelvade]

You completely misunderstood what I was saying. My point was that during Warcraft I, Azeroth (Stormwind) was the only thing in that world and basically a kingdom that represented all humans. I pointed out orc campaign as proof of that, as in its story, you destroy all humans (it doesn´t matter that human campaign ends differently, because destruction isn´t important, the important part is "all humans", as Stormwind was the only human kingdom in lore at that point). Existence of northern realms was a retcon, where instead of being obliterated, humans left to the lands in the north.
What I am trying to say is that at the time of Warcraft I, the only thing from world of Azeroth we knew was Kingdom of Azeroth.

No, i understand that.
It just doesnt matter.
If the kingdom was the only one or not is moot when its named Azeroth.
They literally said the kingdom of Azeroth over and over, ofc they said "we will invade Azeroth" and the like since the whole focus of the game was on Azeroth.
None of the others cared before the horde was shown strong enoug to devour an entire kingdom, allied the forest trolls and brought the ogre clans through the portal.
Revealing more kingdoms is not a retcon as they never claimed Azeroth was all of the world, the whole campaign map was quite literally just Elwynn forest.
Revealing Kalimidor was not a reton either as the rest of the map was not revealed.

You know what IS a retcon?
Pandaria.
That area was mapped and shown.
And then they removed all of that and placed a whole continent there that everyone somehow missed even though the united troll capital was there, the goblin capital (and goblin traders are all over the world), several ships and a zeppelin passed over that area and we had a global map in Ulduar that was made by magic satellites.
Yet everyone somehow missed that giant continent?

Expanding a map and showing more is not a retcon.

Ripping off a part of a map you have drawn and throwing in something else instead of just flipping the map over and keep drawing on the other side is a retcon.

Having a kingdom named Azerot and adding more kingdoms with weird names is not a retcon.

Having a kingdom named Azeroth, kingdoms with weird names and then changing your mind and naming the planet azeroth while all other names stay is fucked up.

 

[Teelvade]

Well just want to post this short timelapse i made from awhile ago

I like how the amani collapsed into the Smith.

And the vid also kinda verifies my point that the Vilebranch should own Jintha as its an important place and owning it makes you a shitload stronker (cuz capital level area).

 

[diablo630]

Here are the before pictures

 

[diablo630]

And here is my days work

 

[ngppgn]

And here is my days work

Awesome, though the northern half seems a lot more nuanced that the southern one

 

[blckdrgn]

Wouldnt the Winteraxe hold the snowy Alterac mountains?

And you should probably give the Vilebranch "their" area (hinterlands) while the revantusk are further away (explaining that since they were far away very few were able to flee all the way to the hinterlands and establish the territory they have in the "present day" while the vilebranch are the strongest because they have held on).

Not to mention that it would be weird for the Revantusk to lose the southern forest troll capital of Jintha'Alor to the Vilebranch when it hasn't fallen to humans for hundreds of years even while being a stones throw away from the Arathorian capital, Wildhammer capital, the second largest location of human mages (Caer Darrow), Tyrs Hand and a major elven outpost.


Bloody lazy by Blizzard is what it was...
It went from being "Kingdom of Azeroth" on the warcraft 2 scoreboard into the "continent of Azeroth" describing the southern part of eastern kingdoms and then onto becoming the "World of Azeroth"...

Thats like starting to call all of Asia 'India' because India is a part of it and then when it catches on you start calling the whole planet India...

@blckdrgn how is the progress in the different areas?
Faces?
Flags?
Triggers?
Events?
Unit models?
Specific race laws/triggers/traits?
Terrain?
Bringing the Horde in?
The other continents?

I know Diablo hit these briefly, but I'll hit them as well for a bit of explanation.

Winterax - Yes, however chronicle lays it down that Arathor holds the entirety of Alterac at this time period. With that in mind, and knowing that they eventually come back to Alterac, I put them off to the side so that they'd still be represented, and not just swept under the rug.

Vilebranch&Revantsuk - As mentioned previously, there's minor changes to a few locations for the sake of changing up the power status of a few clans. Once it gets closer to "modern day" it will shift back to what we're familiar with. 2,800 years is plenty of time for dramatic shifts on the map to happen.

Faces - We currently do not have an artist who can do faces, so we are working on placeholders for the time being until we can find one that can do justice to the warcraft universe. If you know of any, send them our way!

Flags - Diablo has completed the majority of them, we may have a small number left after we revisit them once bookmarks are done.

Triggers/Events - A small number are done, but we could use more Event Scripters!

Unit models - As with Faces, we currently also lack a 3d artist, if you know of one that would like to help, send them our way!

Specific race laws/triggers/traits - ngppgn is on these, we've currently got a set of racial traits for each culture group, complete with a minor bonus (we aim to keep it at a small net of +1 or 2, to avoid ability score bloat, but try to get thematic where possible. Such as, global opinion penalty for undead vs nonundead, opinion penalty for goblin vs golbin, health bonus to trolls, etc)

Terrain - Check out Diablos latest post!

Bringing the Horde in? - Oh hell yeah.

The other continents - Originally I planned for the first version to have EK and Kalimdor, but after hacking together EK by myself for a few months, it quickly became apparent how much work it is to do a full conversion mod. Spoiler: it's a lot of work. So, our first significant release will be just EK, then once we have it polished in a good spot and we've put out the content that we want for it, and we feel we're willing to tackle Kalimdor, we will move there next. If we're a bit insane and want to continue past that, we'll look into Northrend and after that possibly Pandaria or the recently "rediscovered" Broken Isles.

Thank you so much for your questions!

 

[DeamonBlackfyre]

I know Diablo hit these briefly, but I'll hit them as well for a bit of explanation.

Winterax - Yes, however chronicle lays it down that Arathor holds the entirety of Alterac at this time period. With that in mind, and knowing that they eventually come back to Alterac, I put them off to the side so that they'd still be represented, and not just swept under the rug.

Vilebranch&Revantsuk - As mentioned previously, there's minor changes to a few locations for the sake of changing up the power status of a few clans. Once it gets closer to "modern day" it will shift back to what we're familiar with. 2,800 years is plenty of time for dramatic shifts on the map to happen.

Faces - We currently do not have an artist who can do faces, so we are working on placeholders for the time being until we can find one that can do justice to the warcraft universe. If you know of any, send them our way!

Flags - Diablo has completed the majority of them, we may have a small number left after we revisit them once bookmarks are done.

Triggers/Events - A small number are done, but we could use more Event Scripters!

Unit models - As with Faces, we currently also lack a 3d artist, if you know of one that would like to help, send them our way!

Specific race laws/triggers/traits - ngppgn is on these, we've currently got a set of racial traits for each culture group, complete with a minor bonus (we aim to keep it at a small net of +1 or 2, to avoid ability score bloat, but try to get thematic where possible. Such as, global opinion penalty for undead vs nonundead, opinion penalty for goblin vs golbin, health bonus to trolls, etc)

Terrain - Check out Diablos latest post!

Bringing the Horde in? - Oh hell yeah.

The other continents - Originally I planned for the first version to have EK and Kalimdor, but after hacking together EK by myself for a few months, it quickly became apparent how much work it is to do a full conversion mod. Spoiler: it's a lot of work. So, our first significant release will be just EK, then once we have it polished in a good spot and we've put out the content that we want for it, and we feel we're willing to tackle Kalimdor, we will move there next. If we're a bit insane and want to continue past that, we'll look into Northrend and after that possibly Pandaria or the recently "rediscovered" Broken Isles.

Thank you so much for your questions!

Nice, can't wait to civilize and conquer the savages in the name of the HOLY LIGHT!!!!

 

[Dekroken]

Nice, can't wait to civilize and conquer the savages in the name of the HOLY LIGHT!!!!

Speaking of! I hope there's a bunch of cool event chains about the formation of the Church of the Holy Light in early bookmarks and the Paladins in the Second War.

 

[Teelvade]

Faces - We currently do not have an artist who can do faces, so we are working on placeholders for the time being until we can find one that can do justice to the warcraft universe. If you know of any, send them our way!

Not that its brain science to do the CK2 faces.

Humans can stay humans, elves just need some smoothing out of the wrinkles of oldface.dds and replacing all ears, dwarves just remove nobeard.jpg and make all the other beard .dds files more dwarfy.

Orcs are pretty easy except the neck funtion will go balistic since they dont have any necks.

Spoiler: Literally took an hour or so.

Hair, eyes (all these have yellow cuz im an idiot but also have red, blue, brown, blind in one eye and blind in both), forehead (tattoos mostly), teeth (normal, one broken, both broken, metal replacement), ears (pierced with bone, rings and some chopped off ears) and nose (only three of 9 or so shown cuz i randomized five faces and took those, more hairs are also available) done.
Have beards, jaw tattoos, clothes and headgear pretty much available.

Biggest probkem would be that green orcs, red orcs and brown orcs would have to be subspecies under orcs since you cant bloody change the skin color.

Trolls are pretty much the same difficulty

 

[diablo630]

Not that its brain science to do the CK2 faces.

Humans can stay humans, elves just need some smoothing out of the wrinkles of oldface.dds and replacing all ears, dwarves just remove nobeard.jpg and make all the other beard .dds files more dwarfy.

Orcs are pretty easy except the neck funtion will go balistic since they dont have any necks.

Spoiler: Literally took an hour or so.

View attachment 209865 View attachment 209866 View attachment 209867 View attachment 209868 View attachment 209869

Hair, eyes (all these have yellow cuz im an idiot but also have red, blue, brown, blind in one eye and blind in both), forehead (tattoos mostly), teeth (normal, one broken, both broken, metal replacement), ears (pierced with bone, rings and some chopped off ears) and nose (only three of 9 or so shown cuz i randomized five faces and took those, more hairs are also available) done.
Have beards, jaw tattoos, clothes and headgear pretty much available.

Biggest probkem would be that green orcs, red orcs and brown orcs would have to be subspecies under orcs since you cant bloody change the skin color.

Trolls are pretty much the same difficulty

Its not that we don't have the skill or knowledge how to do it. It's just im working on multiple different atm. If we dont find anyone before i finish ill be working on that.

 

[DorlasAnther]

Biggest probkem would be that green orcs, red orcs and brown orcs would have to be subspecies under orcs since you cant bloody change the skin color.

Well, except Grom and his clan for the short time during RoC, all orcs that came through Dark Portal were green. Unless Outland and Mag´har are added, I don´t think different colors of the orcs will be much of an issue for the team.

 

[Teelvade]

Well, except Grom and his clan for the short time during RoC, all orcs that came through Dark Portal were green. Unless Outland and Mag´har are added, I don´t think different colors of the orcs will be much of an issue for the team.

Blackrock were darker tho :C