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EU4 - Development Diary - 25th of October 2016

Hello everyone and welcome to another Europa Universalis IV development diary. This time we’ll go into the main flavor of the 1.19 patch, which we call Denmark.

Well, why do we call it Denmark? Well.. First of all, we’ve added lots and lots of Dynamic Historical Event to Denmark, bringing them up to par with other european majors. Skåne also starts with the Skånemarket, a large bonus to the fish produced in the province. We have also added a few new provinces in Jylland, while also increasing the development of Denmark as a whole.
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And as you can see here, the Danes get a nice new unit in 1.19 as well..

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Norway also got an improvement, getting their map revised to include a fair amount of new provinces, and a wasteland in the center of the mountain range, to make the country more easily defended against the vile swedes. We also gave them a huge chunk of new Dynamic Historical Events, making playing them a fair bit more interesting.
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We also improved the political mapmode, as so many had requested, so we now show the terrain map where there has been no colonisation yet, so you’ll have some more informative eye-candy while playing
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One other thing to mention today is the fact that we added a fair bit more instructions to the AI for your nation if you crash or are forced to stop playing for a while in a campaign. The following options now exists for your convenience.

  • Ignore Decisions -Yes/No
  • Embrace Institutions - Yes/No
  • Develop Provinces - Yes/No
  • Disband Units - Yes/No
  • Change Fleet Missions - Yes/No
  • Send Missionaries - Yes/No
  • Convert Culture - Yes/No
  • Add/Remove Cultures - Yes/No
Stay tuned.. Next week we’ll talk more about forts, peace options and tradegoods, amongst other things.
 
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The fact that the Balkans and Scandinavia are so near to each other only lends more credence to your argument. I mean by Jove! They might as well be neighbours!

I don't understand what is so difficult to understand about more than one thing being done in a map overhaul. I'm not sure if you are aware that Scandinavia isn't the only place getting improvements. Ethiopia is getting a map overhaul, along with the Pyrenees being added to separate Iberia from France, and a few provinces in Russia being split. Your condescension serves no purpose beyond highlighting your presumed ignorance of this fact.
 
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I don't understand what is so difficult to understand about more than one thing being done in a map overhaul.

If you don't understand you probably shouldn't advertise the fact. :)

I'm not sure if you are aware that Scandinavia isn't the only place getting improvements. Ethiopia is getting a map overhaul, along with the Pyrenees being added to separate Iberia from France, and a few provinces in Russia being split. Your condescension serves no purpose beyond highlighting your presumed ignorance of this fact.

I am quite aware of said facts, and my only problem with additional map updates is the fact that whenever there's a new patch the Balkantards first instinct is to call for updates to the goddamn Balkans rather than anywhere else. Given the focus of this patch I'd be exceedingly happy if for one minute the discussion could stick to which form of Agder should be used in a Norwegian province rather than the eternal bemoaning about the Balkans; which as has been established many times are next to impossible to present in a way that would make people happy.

And I believe said region did have some touch up within the last few months...

So no. My condescension merely acts as a way to show my derision of Balkantards.
 
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I am quite aware of said facts, and my only problem with additional map updates is the fact that whenever there's a new patch the Balkantards first instinct is to call for updates to the goddamn Balkans rather than anywhere else. Given the focus of this patch I'd be exceedingly happy if for one minute the discussion could stick to which form of Agder should be used in a Norwegian province rather than the eternal bemoaning about the Balkans; which as has been established many times are next to impossible to present in a way that would make people happy.

There are plenty of maps that show a rather clear illustration of the problems with a few provinces, and those are mostly easily fixed. I think it would be nice to have a more historical setup. I don't see that request as being inherently problematic or off topic. Map changes seem to happen so rarely, if a problem can be addressed, it should be addressed.

And I believe said region did have some touch up within the last few months...

The Balkan provinces in question haven't been changed since the game came out, and the Balkans as a whole haven't seen any updates in well over a year.


So no. My condescension merely acts as a way to show my derision of Balkantards.

I don't think anyone had mentioned it in a few pages until you were keen enough to bring it up again. If you don't see the point as legitimate, that's your prerogative.
 
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I wonder if there are any events for Sweden as well once it conquers Skåne and Bohuslän with regards to the assimilation of the local population into the "Swedish" ethnic group, and vice versa if Denmark or Norway conquer say Västra Gotaland.
Frankly I wouldn't like such events, since even today and especially back then you could well argue that it was a single culture with a single language. Danish, Swedish, and Bokmål aren't that different from each other and could well be said to be dialects of each other. And culture wise there isn't really much difference---especially not back then. Now I think the current division is fine, but I wouldn't want elaborate systems to change provinces from one group to another given that there isn't really much of a change and it primarily is one of loyalty---i.e. which state/king has your loyalty.
If you want to change those cultures there always is the culture change system.
 
I don't think anyone had mentioned it in a few pages until you were keen enough to bring it up again. If you don't see the point as legitimate, that's your prerogative.
That being said, I am curious as to why there is an abundance of Balkan nationalism in these forums. I see it a lot more often than any other patriotism. Is there a particular reason why?
 
Norway could really need a unit pack as well. Having those generic units makes playing as Norway really boring. If you want to enhance that experience, you know what you should do!
 
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That being said, I am curious as to why there is an abundance of Balkan nationalism in these forums. I see it a lot more often than any other patriotism. Is there a particular reason why?
Inertia probably plays a part. I don't know how it started, but it has been there at least since around EU3 released in 2007. Sometimes quite intense (there e.g. was a really long, really contentious thread on whether Bosnia should have it's own branch of Christianity in game), other times more dormant. But always existing to some degree. So it's perhaps easier to just add an argument to a discussion which has gone on forever than start up new ones.

Or perhaps I'm completely wrong.
 
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That being said, I am curious as to why there is an abundance of Balkan nationalism in these forums. I see it a lot more often than any other patriotism. Is there a particular reason why?

I'm not Balkan, but if I had to hazard a guess, the breakup of Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav wars are still rather fresh wounds for some people. I don't think it's necessarily that different from some of the post-Soviet states in its intensity, just maybe unique in its hostility. Certainly some people have power fantasies regarding their national or ethnic mythology because of that.

I don't have a stake in the conflict, I just want to see Epirus in 1444.
 
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Norway could really need a unit pack as well. Having those generic units makes playing as Norway really boring. If you want to enhance that experience, you know what you should do!
As my custom title suggests, I will always advocate more unit packs :D Denmark, Norway, Finland, and Iceland could all get finished up and it would fill out a "Scandinavian pack". Until then, we have Breese's mods that work quite well.
 
Why do you want to get rid of Bornholm? That is one of the most important naval bases in the game (to be fair the naval base was on Ertholmene, which are the very tiny island specks just north east of Bornholm), and historically everybody and their dog has wanted it, since if you control Bornholm you control the southn Baltic Sea (and possibly part of the Northern too). For crying out loud the Russians initially were reluctant to leave in 1945 when having liberated it due to the strategic importance and didn't leave until 1946---i.e. it was still strategically important as late as WWII.
The population is just so ridiculously small compared to other provinces. Rügen across the Baltic had over twice the population and similar if not equal strategic import. I'm similarly against Sahra An Nubya in Upper Egypt. You can't have a province without people!
 
Until then, we have Breese's mods that work quite well.
While I'm happy someone made this mod, it does lack a unit for Artillery, which is a bit annoying for me. Also the second infantery, which if I'm not mistaken is taken from the Danish one is too brown skinned. Looks like one of those who put themselves through hell in tanning boxes in order to look burnt.
 
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The population is just so ridiculously small compared to other provinces. Rügen across the Baltic had over twice the population and similar if not equal strategic import. I'm similarly against Sahra An Nubya in Upper Egypt. You can't have a province without people!
There are other islands in the game with similarly sized populations. E.g. at least on of the Danish Caribbean holdings.

Anyway we had a long thread on this years ago when the game was being developed, so I can link that if you want. Bornholm was more important than Rügen though. And it was a large part of why we were able to keep naval supremacy in much of the Baltic Sea. Population and size wise it isn't really warranted, but importance wise it is really warranted and as shown repeatedly in that thread it's inclusion is much more warranted than Åland's. For millenia you also have Bornholm sitting on the trade from the east/Arabia and being a really important trade hub; it's not a coincidence that archaeologists keep digging gold treasure after gold treasure out of the soil of Bornholm.
 
Can we please get a few new achievements (I mean <5) along with the Danish patch. I think that's been the biggest disappointment from RoM for me. There aren't really any really tough achievements, with some of them really trivial like the QQ one and the Vijay/Bahmanis one. I remember seeing One Faith and the Third Way when that expansion and thinking "Woah - that's going be challenging". But the ones in RoM are really easy.
 
Will Denmark's national ideas be changed at all?
I hope they get a bit of a buff/rework. Maybe a bit of a diplo relations or some kind of diplomacy buff as they start the game with 1 free slot and thus only 1 alliance. You can try for a PU in Wittelsbach Germany or you can try to ally Poland or France. It makes it too easy for them to get wombo combo tag teamed before 1500
 
Denmark indeed could need a few more provinces---and so could Sweden. Possibly Norway too, but not too knowledgeable on that.
But this change is really great.

I said in another thread earlier today that were I in charge of making Scandinavia and had I free hands I'd add 4 or 5 provinces each to Denmark and Sweden (on top of the ones added in this patch) and possibly a couple to Norway, but again not too knowledgeable on what possibly still is missing there. I'd also have most of the Swedish Norwegian border be wasteland to simulate how armies only could cross in very few places which became choke points.

Anyway for Denmark I'd split the Nordjylland we get in 1.19 in two. One province below Limfjorden, which naturally would be called Midtjylland, and one above Limfjorden. Its name would be harder, but Vendsyssel probably would be the best despite it incorporating Thy too. I'd also but a very thin strip of wasteland on Agger Tange (or make it breached despite it not being so historically) to prevent the unrealistic movement of armies from Vestjylland directly into Vendsyssel.
Then I'd consider Jylland finished to the degree of detail we have in game. I wouldn't do anything to Slesvig, since that historically was one single unit to a large degree.
The remaining 3 or 4 provinces I'd put on the islands. You could argue for splitting Skåne, but historically that was a really important province and it was a unit too, so I'd rather up development considerably for it. The only problem there is that it then would seem to be comparable to places like London and Paris which it wasn't. On the other hand Skåneland and especially Skåne arguably was the most important part of Scandinavia and was the thing pretty singlehandedly deciding who of Denmark and Sweden had the upper hand---the one holding it would be strongest barring some God king.

The way I'd do the islands would be to split Fyn in two; and to separate Hillerød and Copenhagen into separate provinces, like you also did, to show the importance of Sjælland. Then there possibly would be a last province added to the southern isles. Possibly splitting Falster off into its own province so that you had Lolland and Falster both being a province. The reason for that mainly would be to have the islands be more important and stress how you needed to take out the navy or have the seas freeze to really be able to roll over Denmark.

For Sweden I'd add Dalsland (might already be added; can't remember.); I'd also split Stockholm in two and thereby add Upsala (again can't remember if that has happened already). Then I'd add Ångermanland, and split Småland into two or three provinces. The reason for the Småland split was that most Danish Swedish wars centered around the border lands and having those more finely represented would allow for small gains without having Denmark stand in Gøtaland and hence next to Stockholm really fast. If Dalsland is in already I'd probably add a province to Finland; either on the coast or splitting one of the inland eastern ones. If Upsala is in too I'd probably add Øland for more Småland action---or just add one province less.

As mentioned I'd probably add a few to Norway. I'm mainly looking at Trøndelag which possibly should be split due to its significance. Don't know if the northern lands warrants an extra province there. Otherwise possibly splitting Akershus into a northern and a southern province, but I don't know how historical that is. Splitting Jemtland into Jemtland and Herjedalen would be rather straight forward too, so also a possibility. Don't know if Oplandene warrants being split.

As mentioned that's about how I'd do it were I given free reigns on redesigning Scandinavia. With those additions I'd consider Scandinavia pretty much perfect and finished for the level of detail used in game. Sure one could always add 200 provinces and it wouldn't be too hard to find historical basis for that, but that'd make the area way too detailed compared to the rest of the World.
I think 4-5 provinces for each Scandinavian country would be a bit too much, as the population of the region was quite low compared to something like France or Austria, and although I think that Denmark should be much stronger in order to be somewhat realistic, I think that we should be cautious not to make Scandinavia too powerful a region. I think Denmark could use three-four new provinces, Norway perhaps one or two, and I honestly think that Sweden is okay as of now. Perhaps they could use one or two more as well.

I do agree on turning more of Norway into a wasteland, though, as it was a very tough task to actually invade Norway.

How would it make the Sound Toll more likely to be realistic to add Hillerød? Also what would the Copenhagen trade modifier represent?
Though I do agree that in a perfect World Hillerød should be added. And having Kronborg indeed would be immersive; though not sure how it would fare game play wise with how ZOCs work, so perhaps you can expand on that?

Currently the Sound Toll is just a static +20 trade power in the Lübeck trade node, which is a pretty abstract and arbitrary way of portraying it. Instead, if Copenhagen and Hillerød were separate provinces, you could have a Sound Toll modifier in Hillerød - perhaps giving you a percentage of all money that the node produces, and the odd event or two where a passing merchant lies about the worth of his cargo, and the king buys it off him for a small price and thus earns a lot of money. Copenhagen could instead get a "Center of Trade" modifier.

You're probably right about the ZoC thing, though they might've changed it now.

How would you make sure Copenhagen is the last to fall? I agree that it should be the very last to fall realistically, but I just don't see how you can ensure that gameplay wise. And how would it force attackers to dispatch troops for partisan quelling? That's something I don't get. Plus that's probably apply to the entire World or at least most of it and you don't have to leave behind occupation troops there, so not sure how it can be justified adding some snaphane modifier to Denmark---plus even if that's added what's then to prevent the attacker from just having a stack standing to move on revolts or just use harsh treatment?

Make it the last province that they make it to, and perhaps give it an modifier, or some events related to the fortifications or the construction of the citadel.

As for the partisan thing, I admit I might've been a bit unclear - if the Swedes, or any enemy for that matter, don't have Copenhagen, the ZoC will simply revert back all provinces to Danish control. Thus, they will be forced to dispatch a few regiments to keep them occupied, weakening the force that they can use to lay siege with.
 
Would you like for the Danes to get 800k starting gold and level 32 tech as well @Admiral Fisker? Because all of your thoughts seem aimed at giving Denmark bonuses and perks that no other nation has...
Of course I wouldn't. I do realise that I have some Danish bias - when I say that Sweden should have one or two provinces more, they should probably have two or three. But no, on the contrary, I want the Scandinavian countries to be inferior to the 'big' major powers of Europe - France, Austria, Spain, England, etc. But it would make sense to make Copenhagen hard to conquer, and to add a more accurate representation of the Sound Toll, as it was the source of around 50% of the country's income. Should any other country gain control over it, they too would have the benefits of it.

As for the +20 trade modifier, I do realise that that would be really OP combined with the Sound Toll, which I why I just suggested a generic CoT modifier.