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EU4 - Development Diary - 31st January 2017

Hello everyone, and welcome to another Europa Universalis development diary. Today we’ll take a deep look at the Manchu tribes.

As we added support for country & province modifiers for culture and culture-groups, we have tied the new unique paid mechanic for Manchu to the manchu culture itself.

If you are primary culture Manchu, in our next expansion, you will be able to raise Banners from states that have manchu cultures provinces. Each manchu province provides 1 banner for each 10 development it has, but it is all calculated on a state level, so several low development provinces together can add enough support for some banners, even if they individually can not support a banner.

Banners are required from the State Interface, and and the cost for a banner to be raised, is purely corruption. For each banner you gain 1 divided by your force limit.

Banners do not use manpower at all, but reinforce at normal monetary cost. If they reach 0 strength, the regiment is disbanded, just like mercenaries.

Banners are raised instantly at 100 men strength, so it will take a while for them to reinforce fully.

Banners are raised so that you get enough cavalry for your cavalry to infantry ratio, and the rest is raised as infantry.

If a state can no longer support enough banners, it will convert banners to regular troops at the start of a new month.

During the Absolutism Age, if you are Manchu or Qing, you can unlock the ability to increase the amount of banners you can raise by 50%, if you gain enough Splendor.

So what makes banners cool, except for having a nice purple background and not costing manpower to raise or reinforce? Well, each banner also have a +10% discipline while fighting.

The Eight Banners idea for Manchu increases the amount of banners you can raise by 25%, but if you don’t get the expansion, it will be 5% discipline still.

Another thing that’s cool with us adding banners is that we now have a nice flexible category system in the code, with normal, mercenary and banners as unit categories, and can expand upon that in the future.

If you compare the map of Manchuria compared to 1.19, you’ll notice a fair amount of tweaks as well..

eu4_14.png



Next week, we’ll be back to talk about State Edicts and the new State Interface..
 
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no.. they get both.

cause Poland is awesome!

Ah, now i see why Russia is Zerg Swarm. Are you consulting with nationalistic polish historians about Russian history?xD

Cause, you know, even wikipedia thinks that Piechota wybraniecka wasn't good and didn't work, while in your game (cause Poland is awesome) they have 25% manpower and 10% Inf CA. Also, there numbers were low - 2000 in Crown and "hundreds" in Lithuania. And they were peasants, so they were working most of the time.

But, oh well, streltsy were professional army, which trained, were paid, get equipment and uniform from state, they got free land along with some food and used different tactics. Their numbers were from ~10k to ~70k. Seriously. And we don't count artillery yard of Ivan IV (at, lets be honest, he wouldn't have it from nothing). So, this is why they have 50% force limit.

I hope you will work with other historians who will read not only one type of sources and will think with their head once in a while.

And, well, you gave me enough butthurt so i will go and read another lot of different sources (including European ones from that time) about Russian military in 15-16th century, so i will be able to write post about tactics and military development. Which no one will read, cause russia=zerg.


Ya, I'm the one that's butthurt, not the guy who turned a thread about mechanics for Manchus into his need for Russia to have space marines. LOL

You can only think in "space marine"? Well, i will disappoint you. I will be happy with 10-15% morale boost as ambition. If they will replace ahistorical bonuses with some more accurate ones - i will be happy. If they will be replaced with religious bonuses - also cool. Just. Make. Bonuses. Accurate. And. Logical.
 
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From the pure historical accuracy point of view I think tying the limit of banners to primary cultural developments is kind of weird idea.
In order to expand the banner army players will be encouraged to convert more lands into manchu, which was the exact opposite of historical trends. And I thought the goal of buffing Manchu was to make the east asia games more historical-friendly?

The manchu culure it self was in steady decline throughout Qing period. Manchu banners settled down as small colonies in all major Han chinese cities, and then became more and more similar to Han in term of culture. Emperor Qianlong (1711-1799) was quite furious when he found out that many manchus in the south had already forgot how to write Manchu characters. I wouldn't be surprised to saw a huge Manchu cultural blob in China in 1821 with this mechanics implemented, which iwould mostly hilarious because it is the time period when Manchu guadually ceased to be a cultural identity but only a political caste.
If I am not mistaken, Qing originally wish to convert Han population to Manchu's culture, like the hair queue policy, and only after they realize it isn't feasible to change their vast subject culture that they stop enforcing it.

So in term of gameplay, I think the banner system would result in player wishing to convert more Asian land to Manchu, but the high MP and time cost to do it would discourage them to do so.
 
Ah, now i see why Russia is Zerg Swarm. Are you consulting with nationalistic polish historians about Russian history?xD

No, just Swedish historians, cause they are the only unbiased ones.


(yes, i am ironic)
 
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Polish bonuses are not to represent Wybraniecka Infranty, but to represent how polish armies were able to win with their enemies despite they were often outnumbered - Kluszyn, Kirholm. As I said in another topic - polish armies are too big in this game, because EUIV is unable to represent interior problems like those with nobles or Cossacks, but they are as good as they should be - well, winged hussars WERE space marines.

But I agree that Russia should get something - maybe XVIII century decision like +5% dyscpline for 100 MIL, espescially when Ottos have this controversial Jannisaries.

@Topic PDX, I see you have started to make real expansions, not some tweaks like mare nostrum. This whole banners idea give great opportunities to modders.
 
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From the pure historical accuracy point of view I think tying the limit of banners to primary cultural developments is kind of weird idea.
In order to expand the banner army players will be encouraged to convert more lands into manchu, which was the exact opposite of historical trends. And I thought the goal of buffing Manchu was to make the east asia games more historical-friendly?
The manchu culure itself was in steady decline throughout Qing period. Manchu banners settled down as small colonies in all major Han chinese cities, and then became more and more similar to Han in term of culture. Emperor Qianlong (1711-1799) was quite furious when he found out that many manchus in the south had already forgot how to write Manchu characters. I wouldn't be surprised to saw a huge Manchu cultural blob in China in 1821 with this mechanic implemented, which would be most hilarious because it is the time period when Manchu guadually ceased to be a cultural identity but only a political caste.
I've always imagined that after you form Qing, Manchu culture is just Chinese with a stronger loyalty towards the Qing. This makes Beijing becoming Manchu acceptable to me, since it's just filled with Han bannermen.
 
kinds.. cavalry to infantry ratio is no longer a techgroup variable, but is a normal modifier.

- Cavalry Ratios removed from techgroup, and added to other modifiers. Default is 50%.
- Steppe Horde government now have +25% Cavalry Ratio.
- Winged Hussars Idea gives +10% Cavalry Ratio now.
- Happy Cossacks Estates give +10% Cavalry Ratio now.
- Sunni Religion lost tolerance own, but gained +10% Cavalry Ratio.
- Tengri lost 2 unrest, but gained +25% Cavalry Ratio.
- Tengri now have 20% cheaper regiments, up from 10% cheaper regiments.

is the current stuff we have.
Further suggestion on this could be: Aristocratic idea, noble loyalty act, from the cavalry bonus and maneuver to the general in that army.
You could also simply base it on combat ability and dicipline with the idea that a cavalry with higher combat ability can support more roles when it is better.
 
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I love the feature possibilities offered by this! Making the cavalry ratio moddable is another great achievement. The things I can do in my mod now! Awesome stuff.
This may seem like a small change but banners and this present us modders with nice new things to play around with!
 
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No, just Swedish historians, cause they are the only unbiased ones.

Well, i won't consult with them about Rurik and Peter xDD Cause, last time i saw swedish historical documentary about vikings, there was phrase that Kiev and Novgorod were founded by them.

And, well, in most countries there are nationalistic historians. This is why i prefer to work with sources from 15-16th century (and this is the reason why i can finish post about Polish-Lithuania-Muscovy/Russia relations - i don't know polish and there are some sources which aren't translated).


Polish bonuses are not to represent Wybraniecka Infranty, but to represent how polish armies were able to win with their enemies despite they were often outnumbered - Kluszyn, Kirholm. As I said in another topic - polish armies are too big in this game, because EUIV is unable to represent interior problems like those with nobles or Cossacks, but they are as good as they should be - well, winged hussars WERE space marines.

The problem is - there can be something better to represent this. Peasants with CA is...strange, no?
Poland was strong country, but, most of the time, Muscovy/Russia fight Lithuania alone. Until Livonian war. This war is insane and discussing it will take a lot of time. After some point PLC started losing, cause their system wasn't that effective. About army quality - i don't think that Russian army was worse than Polish. At some aspects it was stronger, in some - weaker.
 
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Banners are raised so that you get enough cavalry for your cavalry to infantry ratio, and the rest is raised as infantry.
Okay, so either this implies Jurchen Tribes have been moved out of Nomadic Tech Group or the feature is already broken as some of the raised banners for Jianzhou were raised as infantry... I'm going to be quite unhappy with this feature if it's not giving me 100% cavalry...
 
Well, i won't consult with them about Rurik and Peter xDD Cause, last time i saw swedish historical documentary about vikings, there was phrase that Kiev and Novgorod were founded by them.
Uh Novgorod being founded by Germanic immigrants from Sweden is pretty much an undisputed historic fact. Unless you mean they called them Vikings, which yes would be incorrect.

Okay, so either this implies Jurchen Tribes have been moved out of Nomadic Tech Group or the feature is already broken as some of the raised banners for Jianzhou were raised as infantry... I'm going to be quite unhappy with this feature if it's not giving me 100% cavalry...
If so props to paradox, the Jurchens were completely settled agricultural based society, it was their Khorchin and Mongolian allies who were the nomads
 
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Russia without quality is strange. Maybe you can give quality, but until Mestnichestvo is removed you won't benefit from it?

Germanic immigrants

Arabs forced Germans to immigrate even before they came to Germany <3
 
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Well, i won't consult with them about Rurik and Peter xDD Cause, last time i saw swedish historical documentary about vikings, there was phrase that Kiev and Novgorod were founded by them.

And, well, in most countries there are nationalistic historians. This is why i prefer to work with sources from 15-16th century (and this is the reason why i can finish post about Polish-Lithuania-Muscovy/Russia relations - i don't know polish and there are some sources which aren't translated).




The problem is - there can be something better to represent this. Peasants with CA is...strange, no?
Poland was strong country, but, most of the time, Muscovy/Russia fight Lithuania alone. Until Livonian war. This war is insane and discussing it will take a lot of time. After some point PLC started losing, cause their system wasn't that effective. About army quality - i don't think that Russian army was worse than Polish. At some aspects it was stronger, in some - weaker.

I recommend read : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Russian_Wars

Seriosuly, PLC lost first war in 1667, after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(history) and civil war... And, i forgot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmelnytsky_Uprising
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovite–Lithuanian_Wars Lithuanian lost happen always, when Poland has others problems.
 
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Novgorod had already been there when Rurik came, and it was founded by Ilmenians, a slavic tribe.
My mistake, I thought the city sprang up around Holmgard.
 
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Uh Novgorod being founded by Germanic immigrants from Sweden is pretty much an undisputed historic fact. Unless you mean they called them Vikings, which yes would be incorrect.


If so props to paradox, the Jurchens were completely settled agricultural based society, it was their Khorchin and Mongolian allies who were the nomads

You can see in the screenshot they are still nomad tech group as they have horde unity not legitimacy.