EU4 - Development Diary - 31st January 2017

[Ccd9]

This looks like amazing stuff. I hope it works out good and new units/interactions added to Cossack estate, Imperial army etc.

 

[PsychoLold]

Will Banners count for your force limit? If yes paying corruotion for them sounds like a bad deal.

are the banners counted as a part of the force limit?

Since this has not been answered, I assume they do. It seems like they work similar to mercs: You don't spend manpower, but you have to pay for their reinforcements.

Uh Novgorod being founded by Germanic immigrants from Sweden is pretty much an undisputed historic fact. Unless you mean they called them Vikings, which yes would be incorrect.

Novgorod had already been there when Rurik came, and it was founded by Ilmenians, a slavic tribe.

No, Novgorod was actually founded by Atlanteans.
Seriously, do you care about who founded a city? Does it matter at all? Isn't it more important how the city developed, which role it played at its height and who populated it? And: Do you both actually think you know who actually founded it?

 

[Lysistrata]

Banners in exchange for immediate corruption doesn't sound like a good deal. Especially if they count towards force limit and cost upkeep.

I guess the most important unanswered question is: do the banners make Qing more likely in practice or not?

 

[Mortheim]

I recommend read : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Russian_Wars

Seriosuly, PLC lost first war in 1667, after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(history) and civil war... And, i forgot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmelnytsky_Uprising
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovite–Lithuanian_Wars Lithuanian lost happen always, when Poland has others problems.

Wikipedia?...Seriously? I'm working with books, not some questionable site.

From 15th century till 1821 Russia was in war with Poland for 8 times and lost 2 times with 1 draw. After first huge loss in big war (in 1667) PLC became too weak to compete. Russia, during Intervantion, kicked Polish forces from Moscow with militia. But, well, somehow after famine, shitty rules, intervention, plague and other stuff Russia was able to win against Poland in 30 years. So, the winner became the loser while Russia was devasted after Livonian War, Time of Troubles and Intervention and, after only 30 years, was able to kick ass?

Against Lithuania Muscovy/Russia had 6 wars. 3 were won, 2 - draw, one became Livonian war after Lithuania understood that Russia will win. 3 wars took practically 4/10 of Lithuanian territory.

And, well, Livonian War wouldn't happen if Ottoman candidate hadn't won. Cause Ivan IV wanted to fight hordes and Ottomans, but, ohwell.

 

[melkor88]

Sounds interesting.

 

[Zwirbaum]

Hmm, Japanese-Manchurian banners. (+20% discipline on it's own, without any additional ideas, policies, advisors, absolutism etc.). Ooh, baby...

 

[Shock360]

Only problem I see with it is it works better with more force limit? Wouldn't it make sense for them to be easier to use when smaller to allow you to conquer China then they become irrelevant?

 

[Tehrozer]

Could we get back some of the raising troops mechanic from ck 2 to eu 4 bcs in the early game countries still used nobles and only used them in war . For example poland had max i think 10 k troops raised all the time and that was after few years of reforming rest was purley raised from nobles like winged hussars and whole peasant infantry was tied to nobles so it would be nice to see for example in poland Noble armies those would be few cav and to those you get lots of weak inf and later you could get something beter . Lets say 1 cav per 10 dev ( state level ) and to that some inf lets say it would be based on your cav to inf ratio or idk it would just multiply like 2 times the cav or 1.5 something like that it would bring lots of good stuff to poland and made them less op in some fields bcs as we all should know sometimes noble got over zealous with their raised armies and things got op back in those good times ( *cough* *cough* .... 1612 ...... *cough* *cough* ) and things got better ( for poland only ) it would be a fun mechanic and it could be exported around to other countries

 

[Repsow]

Wikipedia?...Seriously? I'm working with books, not some questionable site.

From 15th century till 1821 Russia was in war with Poland for 8 times and lost 2 times with 1 draw. After first huge loss in big war (in 1667) PLC became too weak to compete. Russia, during Intervantion, kicked Polish forces from Moscow with militia. But, well, somehow after famine, shitty rules, intervention, plague and other stuff Russia was able to win against Poland in 30 years. So, the winner became the loser while Russia was devasted after Livonian War, Time of Troubles and Intervention and, after only 30 years, was able to kick ass?

Against Lithuania Muscovy/Russia had 6 wars. 3 were won, 2 - draw, one became Livonian war after Lithuania understood that Russia will win. 3 wars took practically 4/10 of Lithuanian territory.

And, well, Livonian War wouldn't happen if Ottoman candidate hadn't won. Cause Ivan IV wanted to fight hordes and Ottomans, but, ohwell.

Seriusly? Let's burn all most valuable provinces in Russia, kill 1/3 population, revolt 1/3 of country, kill again thousend in civil war, then revolt another civil war, and try to win a war? Oh, wait, isn't it a something like war in 1618? But PLC, if nobles wouldn't be so greedy, could have their dynasty on Russians throne, when Russia just retake their land.
And about yours lost PLC in XVIII century, happend after
Treaty of the Three Black Eagles:War of Succesion between Habs and Fra, so... Another was civil war, where Russia interview? just wtf? victory? we are soooo goood, we won agains few drunked nobles.... And last two war, where one in named "uprising" .

But just it about "history", i agree that name "Piechota Wybraniecka" is bad here, maybe chagne it to Cossacks Regiments? They was awesome

 

[genrtul]

Banners in exchange for immediate corruption doesn't sound like a good deal. Especially since they count towards force limit and cost upkeep.

I guess the most important unanswered question is: do the banners make Qing more likely in practice or not?

If I'm parsing the OP correctly banners don't cost upkeep, you just have to pay for reinforcements. If that's the case then that makes them well worth it even if they do take force limit, and it's a nice solution to Manchu not being able to support all that many troops due to having low development.

 

[Aethis]

Hmm, Japanese-Manchurian banners. (+20% discipline on it's own, without any additional ideas, policies, advisors, absolutism etc.). Ooh, baby...

Don't forget protestant (go catholic first) Japan->Manchu

You can reach nearly 140% discipline using banners in some cases!

 

[SoCCo]

Just because they weren't a nation called Russia doesn't mean they weren't Russian people, especially since Muscovy near seamlessly became Russia. And no, what I'm saying is maybe replace Russias ahistorical 50% bonus manpower with +10% or 15% infantry combat ability and maybe throw +5% discipline or +10% morale somewhere else. They could probably get some sort o artillery combat ability bonus as well considering that was the strongest and most favored part of their military for half of EU4's time frame but there is a reason artillery bonuses are rare on majors.

and if you want to talk bullshit revisionism, Prussias military ideas are based on stuff that happened after the game ended. Prussia's big military advantage in real life were their officers and their ability to field a large army relative to their size, not being crazy elite compared to everybody else.


edit: and the Manchu conquest of China was largely thanks to Han defectors. and The Jurchens weren't some random tribals either (Jianzhou should technically not be a horde as they were a settled people)

historically, the Russian armies of this time frame were neither as disciplined as the European ones nor did they have high morale. you know, serfs being forced into service and all.

regarding Prussia/Brandenburg: after the devastation of the 30 years war, the rulers in Brandenburg realized that they need to have a disciplined high quality army, not necessary big quantity. Frederick the Great invaded Austria during the First Silesian War with 28000 troops, even during Napoleonic Wars, Prussia that was much larger in terms of manpower at that time still didn't afford to field the quantity of troops that Austria, Russia, France or others fielded. you talk about the military organization reforms of 19th century Prussia while purposefully ignoring what the predecessors of Frederick the Great did (Frederick-William I of Prussia"The Soldier King", Frederick I of Prussia and Frederick-William I Elector of Brandenburg who laid the foundation of the Prussian army after witnessing the devastation of Brandenburg during his father's rein (30 years war)). Frederick-William I (the elector) was able to field a professional army of 40.000 and is the first who started reforms of the Brandenburg/Prussia that lead to have a strong economy to back a well disciplined army. later army tactics developed during Frederick-William I (of Prussia) and Frederick the Great were based on his administrative and early military reforms. your bias against Prussia (and probably Sweden as well) clouds your judgement and you fail to realize the importance of early modern warfare these 2 small overall, but great militaristic nations achieved, all of whom helped your beloved Russia to become somewhat westernized and field a mediocre infantry (but large quantities of it) and decent cavalry (but used in bad ways). there are only 3 great things about this time frame's Russia: the Russian Winter (hardly something the local rulers had control over), Russian manpower (swarms of serfs forced into service, but hardly any discipline or morale) and arty, which was the elite of the Russian armed forces later on, but of no particular importance otherwise, not worth of being reflected as a national idea in the game.

 

[wingren013]

there are only 3 great things about this time frame's Russia: the Russian Winter (hardly something the local rulers had control over), Russian manpower (swarms of serfs forced into service, but hardly any discipline or morale) and arty, which was the elite of the Russian armed forces later on, but of no particular importance otherwise, not worth of being reflected as a national idea in the game.

sigh...

by the way I'm not some Prussia hating Russophile, and I happen to think Sweden is actually pretty decently portrayed all things considered. Its just the Russia is both weak in game and ahistorically portrayed so a historically accurate buff would be good.

Also Russian soldiery was largely recruited from the same sources as other countries, freemen farmers and craftsmen. The point of Serfs is that the nobles own them. One of the big motivations for serfdom reform by Russian monarchs was they needed more men for the military.

 

[Mortheim]

And about yours lost PLC in XVIII century, happend after

After first huge loss in big war (in 1667) PLC became too weak to compete.

So, i will answer latter first. I already said, that after one (ONE, CARL, ONE!!!!111) loss PLC wasn't even considered power.

Seriusly? Let's burn all most valuable provinces in Russia, kill 1/3 population, revolt 1/3 of country, kill again thousend in civil war, then revolt another civil war, and try to win a war? Oh, wait, isn't it a something like war in 1618? But PLC, if nobles wouldn't be so greedy, could have their dynasty on Russians throne, when Russia just retake their land.

Now this. In first place this wouldn't happen if Ivan IV hadn't kill his son. Or if False Dmitriy was chased and destroyed. Or if there wasn't betrayal. But all happened, so oh well. Russia became freaking gunpowder barrel with plague, famine and a lot of other fun stuff. Dmitriy, lets be honest, also was trying to help Russia and betrayed PLC. So, after his death shit starts, shit continues, Poland comes and, seeing all this shit and losing to Second Militia (MILITIA, CARL!!111!) decides, that dealing with all this stuff is too hard (remember, Russia wasn't small and logistics there was hell - snow and cold in winter, rains and melting snow in spring, rains in autumn). It is obvious, that you would prefer to grab land that was previously yours and not deal with this shithole. And, just imagine, what would happen if Poland would install their pretender. How long would he last? What army will you bring to rule? Nightmare. So, PLC did what it should. It got back 4/10 of Lithuanian territories back. Ffs, who would think that after ALL this Russia will be able to comeback in 30 (LESS THAN GENERATION, CARL) years.

historically, the Russian armies of this time frame were neither as disciplined as the European ones nor did they have high morale. you know, serfs being forced into service and all.

Oh, ffs. Not this again. First, it was more like feudal army. Second, yes, peasants served, like in a lot of armies during that period. Third, a lot of those peasant were used as help to artillery. Fourth, they were used for other works and, rarely, in assault of fortresses. Fifth, militia from peasants was rarely used (only in dire circumstances - cause they were feeding and supplying army). Sixth, a lot of townsman already had experience in battles (if they lived on south or near Lithuania). Seventh, at the start of 16th century (and, maybe, earlier) town population also was used as pishalniks (analog of musketeers) and they were supplied either by city, or by state. Should i continue?

 

[TheDungen]

Seems a bit convoluted but sure.

 

[Homusubi]

It seems a nice mechanic and certainly makes Manchu/Qing more interesting, but I'm a bit worried that - once again - people without Common Sense will lose out due to banner capacity being development based i.e. it's possible that some of the areas (=states) in Manchuria have 18 or 19 development.

 

[Mortheim]

Is Poland/Russia posting like balkan posting?

I have no problem with Poland being strong. But i see problem with misrepresenting Russia. I have problem with some other misrepresentations in game, but, well, i prefer to focus on one xD

 

[Repsow]

So, i will answer latter first. I already said, that after one (ONE, CARL, ONE!!!!111) loss PLC wasn't even considered power.



Now this. In first place this wouldn't happen if Ivan IV hadn't kill his son. Or if False Dmitriy was chased and destroyed. Or if there wasn't betrayal. But all happened, so oh well. Russia became freaking gunpowder barrel with plague, famine and a lot of other fun stuff. Dmitriy, lets be honest, also was trying to help Russia and betrayed PLC. So, after his death **** starts, **** continues, Poland comes and, seeing all this **** and losing to Second Militia (MILITIA, CARL!!111!) decides, that dealing with all this stuff is too hard (remember, Russia wasn't small and logistics there was hell - snow and cold in winter, rains and melting snow in spring, rains in autumn). It is obvious, that you would prefer to grab land that was previously yours and not deal with this shithole. And, just imagine, what would happen if Poland would install their pretender. How long would he last? What army will you bring to rule? Nightmare. So, PLC did what it should. It got back 4/10 of Lithuanian territories back. Ffs, who would think that after ALL this Russia will be able to comeback in 30 (LESS THAN GENERATION, CARL) years.



Oh, ffs. Not this again. First, it was more like feudal army. Second, yes, peasants served, like in a lot of armies during that period. Third, a lot of those peasant were used as help to artillery. Fourth, they were used for other works and, rarely, in assault of fortresses. Fifth, militia from peasants was rarely used (only in dire circumstances - cause they were feeding and supplying army). Sixth, a lot of townsman already had experience in battles (if they lived on south or near Lithuania). Seventh, at the start of 16th century (and, maybe, earlier) town population also was used as pishalniks (analog of musketeers) and they were supplied either by city, or by state. Should i continue?

That lost war against Russia wasn't reason of decline of PLC. That's first. Second, your glorius Army of Mother Russia, barely never winning against bigger army, whats funny, after PLC wasn't even considered power, happend that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dubienka
If you want to realize why PLC decline, i recomend to start with gold mine, then "blockade port", consequences etc.

And we are talking here most about quality of russian army, which just suck. There are dozens of examples of loses vs smaller army, when i don't recognise even one, where they win vs bigger army(let's say just 1:2(not 1:10 which happening to PLC ))
So i think that's why in game you can easly hold large army as Russia, but they are not even close to space marine.

 

[grommile]

Okay, so either this implies Jurchen Tribes have been moved out of Nomadic Tech Group or the feature is already broken as some of the raised banners for Jianzhou were raised as infantry... I'm going to be quite unhappy with this feature if it's not giving me 100% cavalry...

Read the dev responses in this thread; cavalry limit will be determined differently in 1.20.

 

[mursolini]

Can people arguing for different ideas for Russia just make a tread and go there? You will generate much more value this way, instead of beating the dead horse! Make tread, make a mod, promote it, and show how the game is improved

You generate lots of friction but little results, sadly.