Stellaris Dev Diary #60: Psionics and The Shroud

[aono]

But it can be (see Terran Ghosts, 40k Navigators, ME Human Biotics), just like it can be a product of Spiritualist soul-searching.

40K navigators are really bad example. Guild was based on spiritual achievement - Norma Cenva actually unlocked her psi potential being tortured, not by R&D project.

 

[Arkangilos]

In Warhammer, too, being a psyker is a question of genes -- which is why psykers were around long before the Imperium became spiritual

Psykers have always been spiritual. From the old ones to the Eldar, to Imperial Truth era Psykers. The warp LITERALLY feeds off of the soul and emotions. They weren't religious, but they WERE spiritualists.

And yes, faith acts as an innate shield against psychic influence, but this goes back to the (not necessarily religious) mental discipline I outlined earlier.

Mental discipline on this scale is spiritualism.

And yet there are various factors associated with the Spiritualist Ethos that seem to belie this level of artistic interpretation, such as all Spiritualists disliking robot Pops (explainable only by religious dogma).

Or, it could not be religious dogma, but instead the principle that that connect to one's spirit/emotion/inner self, you have to be a living being? Even materialists in sci-fi tend to dislike AI. The Star Trek utopia has all kinds of episodes on whether or not Data and the Doctor count as living beings with the same rights. Now, take it from a spiritual perspective where your life revolves around your "unprogrammed mind" and you see people creating a machine that can think. Is it real? Not to the spiritualist because it is programmed. Since it is programmed, it clearly doesn't have the same capacity for inner self that you do.

But should Theocracies have to be spiritual?

... Yes... I mean, considering that theocracies are religious states run with the idea that spiritual beings are there.

If they are, then it implies link between the two.

No, it implies that theocracies are spiritualists.

Theocracies are religious states.
Religious states are spiritualists.
But, not all spiritualists are religious.

Here are the discriptions:
Fanatic spiritualists:
Our science has proved that Consciousness begets reality. We regard with patience the childlike efforts of those who delude themselves it is the other way around, as they play with their blocks of 'hard matter'.

Spiritualists- "There are those think it behooves us to remember how tiny we are, how pointless our lives in this vast uncaring universe... What nonsense! The only truth we can ever know is that of our own existence. The universe - in all its apparent glory - is but a dream we all happen to share."

Do any of those say "religion"? Because to me what it says is, "there is something greater than this physical universe.

On the flip side Materalist in this game seems to imply that those with the ethos care only about *this* PHYSICAL universe.

 

[Cri11e]

The way I view it, you can have one and only one of the two following things:
1) Distinct ethics that have their own unique playstyles.
2) No ethics restrictions on mechanics.

I consider #1 to be more important, so that's the direction we'll be going. It'll be fully moddable, of course.

+1 +1 +1. Uniqueness = Replayability.

 

[Swarm lover]

I wonder how paradox will make the other 2 ascension paths just as interesting as the psionic one.

 

[Wise Strategist]

A few questions

1. Will the Psionic Theory tech still give you access to the Psionic Warriors army attachment, and will you still be able to get the tech if you get a scientist with the Expertise: Psionics trait?

2. Will possible for empires that are not spiritualist, but also not materialist to get a leader with the trait without having become fully spiritualist?

 

[aono]

Do any of those say "religion"? Because to me what it says is, "there is something greater than this physical universe.

...let's check AI personality for Fanatic Spiritualist. "Evangelising Zealots seek to spread their faith across the galaxy, and are not above using military might to force others to accept their beliefs.". Well, if you're nice person, who are individualist or xenophile, you can be another one: "Spiritual Seekers believe that all life is connected through some higher power that can be understood through its creations. They will seek peaceful cooperation with other empires in the hopes of studying their connection to the divine."
What about Spiritualist Fallen Empire? Well, "This Fallen Empire dedicates itself to the preservation and defense of its holy sites. Colonizing systems that they consider sacred is likely to incur their ire."
If you build your government by spiritual ethos (of course, you can be spiritualist and have a government based on another ethos, but it don't means "spiritualist governments are something another", that means that something is more important that being spiritualists for your empire) you have three choices. Let's check... "This government is a spiritualistic form of autocracy, where the ruler is treated as a divine symbol. Organized religion is widely employed in support of the state apparatus.", "This government is a spiritualistic form of oligarchy, where a divinely guided council made up of clergy controls the state. No division exists between the state and the dominant organized religion." or "This government is a spiritualistic form of democracy, where a religious council supervises the democratic process and serves in an advisory role.".
Ok, maybe they get rid from this religion, that limiting spiritual search, later?.. "This government is an advanced form of spiritualistic autocracy. Everything is shaped by the official state religion, and the ruler is worshiped as an infallible living god.", "This government is an advanced form of spiritualistic oligarchy, ruled by a divine council who are considered absolute authorities on all matters of state and religion." or "This government is an advanced form of spiritualistic democracy, where candidates for leadership are drawn exclusively from the ranks of the official state religion, which permeates all layers of society."

 

[Zarpaulus]

There should be a Shroud crisis - it's unfair how only Materialists can bring doom upon themselves

Even in the current version Psi Jump drive has a considerably higher chance of attracting the Unbidden than regular Jump drive.

 

[Xoatl]

That's pretty much all I want!

It's why I am in favor of making only the first tier of psionic stuff unrestricted. I agree with Wiz that ethoses should feel unique (even if I think government types would warrant even more unique mechanics, a la Stellaris Zero), I just don't think it should be a simple yes/no but rather "degrees" of aptitude and pops or factions having unique reactions to these new mechanics. It just feels as if this would allow for more creative freedom and more interesting gameplay. Imagine if you were playing a materialist empire that has a few telepathic pops, then a faction comes up wanting to ban them. We already have this to a degree when it comes to Spiritualist empires and robot Pops. Why is it any different with psionics?

In Mass Effect, Humans were experimenting with eezo and biotics without alien influence. They did so via covert experiments, quite materialistic in nature. It's probably also the justification for why they are using head implants, something I have a feeling Asari biotics don't engage in, or at least not as a widespread practice.

As for the Warp, the "lords" of said realm are a gestalt consciousness of all the thoughts and dreams poured into the Immaterium, no matter if the origin was spiritual or not. A "soul" in 40k has nothing to do with spirituality either, it's just a glob of psychic energy attached to everyone's physical body. Even Tau have souls, yet they can't have psykers, and their soul has so little energy that it barely registers in the Warp.

In the end, I'm not saying that psionics is a necessarily Materialist pursuit. But it can be (see Terran Ghosts, 40k Navigators, ME Human Biotics), just like it can be a product of Spiritualist soul-searching. As I mentioned previously, the key element I see here is mental discipline, but this isn't something I'd associate solely with spiritualism. Many roads lead to Rome.

I agree that it is more of a gradient than it is binary and like all things a rational person should want to strike a balance between extremes. Asari would likely never have been as powerful biotics as they are now if their atmosphere wasn't saturated with eezoo. Plenty of other species had spiritual beginnings and worshipped Protheans but didn't get to their level.

The Warp I still disagree with, you might wave off souls as being globs of psychic energy. But corrupting space marines was particularly the greatest thing because they served their chaos god without end. After dying and recombing in the warp they'd be sent out to die again. It's much more than a finite piece of energy that's thrown away. They are entities that have been so thoroughly corrupted that their infinite souls now serve chaos forever.

The majority of examples you brought up are lacklustre, I've experienced those universes and at the very least it's greyer than you lead on. Except 40k out of those three. That's definitely a spiritual universe. I believe the Imperial scribes that the Chaos realm and gods were primordial for much of existence until a critical # of sentient POPs emerged in the galaxy. There is strong evidence that souls are persistent, particularly ones that are very powerful like the Emperor and Primarchs. Solid indisputable references to the Emperor (and others) reincarnating for thousands of years before the events of the games and tabletop. Albeit, at times 40k can get pretty loose, blurring the distinction of souls and psychic energies. Like the birth of slaanesh caused by a particularly debaucherous and dark night on an elven planet. The activities conducted on that night and surrounding it caused a huge release in lustful, purpley, gooy psychic energy that it spawned Slaanesh and Slaanesh immediately started saying how it has lived since the beginning of time. Back to non-linear time. Both accounts of that are true, Slaanesh was created right then and Slaanesh has lived the entirety of the universe from start to finish because it was created in a realm that disregards physical law and only plays by the rules of consciousness ie the soul ie magic. But now I'm just entertaining a tangent.

It makes me wonder, its that old ying yang symbol. A small part of consciousness plays a role in the physical world so I'm sure a small part of the physical plays a role in the spiritual world (ie requiring certain conditions to be met in physical space in order to spawn Slaanesh). Knowing what mechanism that is would be the first step of understanding psionics through a materialist lens. Sadly our physical instruments aren't fine enough to manipulate or detect these "trans-dimensional energies". Our souls on the other hand.

 

[Me_]

The way I view it, you can have one and only one of the two following things:
1) Distinct ethics that have their own unique playstyles.
2) No ethics restrictions on mechanics.

I consider #1 to be more important, so that's the direction we'll be going. It'll be fully moddable, of course.

I'd argue that you can also have:
3) No restrictions but ethics gain massive bonuses to certain mechanics, which make them feel unique - Endless Legend has some such systems (only with nations instead of mechanics) e.g. Forgotten gain huge bonuses to espionage, which means that playing them is very espionage focused, while for others it's just a side mechanics

That being said, I actually prefer 1) - it's simpler to manage and gives bigger incentive to play multiple times.

 

[Tindalosihound]

No, it implies that theocracies are spiritualists.

Theocracies are religious states.
Religious states are spiritualists.
But, not all spiritualists are religious.

Here are the discriptions:
Fanatic spiritualists:
Our science has proved that Consciousness begets reality. We regard with patience the childlike efforts of those who delude themselves it is the other way around, as they play with their blocks of 'hard matter'.

Spiritualists- "There are those think it behooves us to remember how tiny we are, how pointless our lives in this vast uncaring universe... What nonsense! The only truth we can ever know is that of our own existence. The universe - in all its apparent glory - is but a dream we all happen to share."

Do any of those say "religion"? Because to me what it says is, "there is something greater than this physical universe.

On the flip side Materalist in this game seems to imply that those with the ethos care only about *this* PHYSICAL universe.

It depends on what your definitions are. Religion as a term is often hotly debated as to its exact limits (Quite often it's an irregularly declining word: "I have a personal relationship with god, you have a religion, he has a cult), so forgive me If I just quote wikipedia here: "Religion is a cultural system of behaviors and practices, world views, sacred texts, holy places, ethics, and societal organisation that relate humanity to what an anthropologist has called "an order of existence". Different religions may or may not contain various elements, ranging from the "divine", "sacred things", "faith", a "supernatural being or supernatural beings" or "some sort of ultimacy and transcendence that will provide norms and power for the rest of life.""

So no, none of those say Religion to me, or rather they all do. And I could also see them applying to Materialist societies, or simply societies which are neither. A society founded around a religion which worships the natural world might need never involve psionics or the Shroud. But in Stellaris, they could not have a religious form of Government.

And also on another point, the Jedi are repeatedly referred to as a religion in Star Wars. Even if they themselves never called themselves one, their relationship with the force was seen as a religion by the Galaxy at large.

 

[aono]

And also on another point, the Jedi are repeatedly referred to as a religion in Star Wars. Even if they themselves never called themselves one, their relationship with the force was seen as a religion by the Galaxy at large.

Let's just not forgot - it's not "you join Jedi Order so you gain Force", it's "you have Force so you can join Jedi Order". Or you can just be Force Sensitive, and don't even know about it, it just makes you better in everything you do.
Jedi just have best in galaxy practice in training Force Sensitives, but if Order would disappear it don't mean Force would disappear as well.

 

[Grand Historian]

Let's just not forgot - it's not "you join Jedi Order so you gain Force", it's "you have Force so you can join Jedi Order". Or you can just be Force Sensitive, and don't even know about it, it just makes you better in everything you do.
Jedi just have best in galaxy practice in training Force Sensitives, but if Order would disappear it don't mean Force would be as well.

There's also the fact that the Jedi obviously have forms of orthodoxy in regards to their beliefs surrounding the force - as many Jedi are referred to having unorthodox view about it - and they were willing to enforce this orthodoxy enough to try to purge the Sith on multiple occasions.

The Sith are a bit of a dichotomy; spiritualist materialists. On one hand, they venerate dead sith lords, worshipped the Emperor, many of the more esoteric of them outright worship the Dark Side, and most are religiously devoted to the suicidal Sith code. On the other hand, many also view the Dark Side as something to be studied, controlled, and use it in an almost empirical fashion to try to increase their own power/lifespan/etc.

 

[Malecord]

The way I view it, you can have one and only one of the two following things:
1) Distinct ethics that have their own unique playstyles.
2) No ethics restrictions on mechanics.

I consider #1 to be more important, so that's the direction we'll be going. It'll be fully moddable, of course.

for me it's... ok I guess.

I had an issue in vanilla Stellaris with psi stuff only being researchable by spiritualists simply because psi powers had material causes (originated by biological brains) and had dramatic material effects on the universe (fleets jumping on the opposite side of the galaxy and soldiers brains being damaged by enemy psichers). With all these events happening around them how could they be so stubborn to not even try to analyze it? That made absolute non sense.

But in Banks psi mastery, or better, awakening is not the result of a focused tech research but rather of a collective effort that involves all aspects of society, as represented by ascension perks. With these assumptions I'm ok with materialists (or any non spiritualist) being locked out. Because psi is not something that can be so easily reproduced with research in a lab: it requires all pops in the empire to work together to manifest.

 

[Arkangilos]

On the other hand, many also view the Dark Side as something to be studied, controlled, and use it in an almost empirical fashion to try to increase their own power/lifespan/etc.

That doesn't mean they are materialist. Spiritualists still do all of that.

 

[Lothmar]

Anyone else have a feeling that everyone's gonna at least try one Spiritualist play through first thing after this launches (if only temporarily until psychic powers are achieved then shift away)?

 

[Luzahn]

Really, I think that any sort of psionic powers are "spiritualist" as far as Stellaris is concerned. The Spiritualist/Materialist dichotomy here isn't so much faith versus science, it's transcendent vs mundane, nonphysical vs physical. You can still study the "spirit realm" using the scientific method; you're spiritualist by accepting that the nonphysical is "real" in the first place.

I mean we see world religions analyzing aspects of their faith empirically; they're just measuring things which don't exist in the first place.

 

[blackchoas]

Anyone else have a feeling that everyone's gonna at least try one Spiritualist play through first thing after this launches (if only temporarily until psychic powers are achieved then shift away)?

not really psionics is the only version we know about right now, but there is also a robotics and genetics path similar in level to this

 

[Xoatl]

With all these events happening around them how could they be so stubborn to not even try to analyze it? That made absolute non sense.

For the same reason we're having trouble coming to a consensus in this chat, a strict Materialist society would view any notion of something greater than the physical world as complete rubbish. But at the same time you need to accept it as truth to begin making any progress in psionics (who knows, maybe I'm talking out of my ass). There's already evidence of psi-phenomenon and parapsychological events in the real world but that is swept under the rug by our largely Materialist academia. For centuries scientists who had spiritualist bends were pushed aside in the historic conversation if at all possible. Materialist vs. Spiritualist is probably the most clearly defined ethos extremes in my mind for this reason. A materialist would think the goals of a spiritualist is fantasy and a waste of time. A spiritualist would think the goals of a materialist is fleeting and a waste of time. Similar while simultaneously different from one another like most extremes. Fundamental ways of thinking that blocks you off from some things while opening up others. Which is why I advocate balance and why I agree with Saint that there must be some ways to make hybrids slightly. I'll be happy to see it done thoughtfully in mods though.

 

[Zarpaulus]

A few things to remember about 40K:

First, the Emperor was pretty much the only human psyker after the shamans committed mass suicide to create him up until humanity started using warp drive to colonize the galaxy.

Second, there were hundreds, if not thousands of small human empires scattered throughout the galaxy before the Emperor took over Terra and began his Grand Crusade.

Judging from the Imperium's treatment of psykers it seems more like a number of the pre-Imperium petty empires followed the psionic path and after conquest by the Emperor's Authoritarian, Militarist, Xenophobic Imperium their former POPs retained the Latent Psychic trait.

I also recall seeing this on Martin Anward's twitter:

So, you could say that the Emperor was the Chosen One of neolithic Earth but he purged all of humanity's other Latent Psychic POPs and then stepped down for 38,000 years until the Dark Age of Technology got so bad he came back out of the shadows to lead humanity on his bright and glorious golden path.

 

[Aegrim]

Are we getting any new end game crisis? Any tied in to these new features?
Can the AI go down these paths too?