Stellaris Dev Diary #60: Psionics and The Shroud

[Xoatl]

That'd be a nice touch. Though maybe a bit late for any meaningful ethics shift before you're eaten by demons. =P

Although I'm still liking the idea of being stubborn Space-Dwarves and just matching all the weird space magic with a whole bunch of mundane guns.

A whole bunch of mundane guns can be fun too. Especially used on those demons.

 

[Zarpaulus]

Libertarians aren't necessarily Egalitarians, though -- the former term has become quite muddled by various different leanings, some of which I'd argue go against the original meaning of the word.

If I may make a movie recommendation: "Gattaca" is an interesting glimpse at a possible future where a lack of social balance results in only portions of the populace reaping the benefits of genetic enhancements... Not too dissimilar from availability of education in some countries, too.

Once only part of your population gets biomodded, you effectively end up with "subraces" whose treatment will ultimately differ, be it based on bias or actual skill, or a combination of both. Yet if you want your entire species to undergo such changes, you'd have to enforce them, just like Authoritarian governments are more likely to greenlight human experimentation.

iirc, the Federation in Star Trek has banned genetic manipulation for the exact same reasons. It was the subject of several episodes in TNG and DS9.


There are more biotics in the ME setting than just the Asari; you've already pointed out how the source of their psionic power is from eezo exposure rather than cultural indoctrination.

Even IF we'd describe the Asari as a spiritual people (what I can agree on), the setting is the perfect example of why psionics can appear in multiple Ethoses. That some biotics may be Spiritualists arguably did not mean all of them are.

The same applies to StarCraft: just because Protoss are Spiritualists does not make Terrans Spiritualists, too, yet they have their own telepaths.

The Warp also has no inherent connection to Spiritualism; it affects everyone and merely serves as a conduit and you do not have to be spiritual to be linked to it. Even the Imperium's psykers existed long before the Imperium's state religion.

Lastly, the Bene Gesserit's usage of breeding programs and the very drug you mention is just another piece of evidence of how psionic ability has an innate *physical* requirement rather than being a product of faith alone. Even Stellaris' ascension dialogue suggests so.

"I mean you can be wrong, just don't be this wrong."

GATTACA was about embryonic selection, genetic engineering in Stellaris appears to be gene therapy.

And I'm pretty sure that if the government is offering something beneficial for free, the majority of the population will take it. Environmental adaptations to the planet type they inhabit in particular.

 

[Luzahn]

Xorulon for Megapresident, 2224: "Nuke The Shroud"

 

[Arkangilos]

Why do you keep assuming Spiritualism =/= Science? I'm a spiritualist, I'm also religious, and I completely support science.

The ghosts busters are spiritualists by definition of this game. They believe there is something besides this physical universe. The government (in ghost busters) on the other hand was Materialist. They laughed at the group, called them liars, and said it was hallucinations.

Don't confuse government types and ethos. Ethos is the stance on how they approach the world. Government type is how they handle internal politics.

-example-

You can be spiritualist, egalitarian, militarist and whatever government type any of those allows.

What can that mean? Well, the country is a representative republic that cares about the military, equality, and finding out more about the non-physical world.

If they were Materialist, egalitarian, and militarist, and a representative republic, they would be the exact same thing but they would focus more on the physical world. As in the rocks I can physically hold. Does this mean that psychics don't exist? No. It means that the government doesn't recognize them as existing, because it cares only about the rock it can stand on, not the alternate plane of existance that has absolutely no proof besides some story and conspiracy of some random guy being able to read your mind.

 

[Drakonn]

Currently we have 3 new contents (psionic path, biological path and syntethic path). If it is a single ethics per content, does this suggest that all ethics will be getting theirs in the future? Otherwise it is quite a strong motivation to choose from only the 3 ethics that will have special features attached.

Pretty sure there will be. After all Purity is coming in some form still.

One to a purity of genetics and another to diverse genetics?

Personally, I hope that's not it. I like playing Xenophobes in the game but wouldn't want that tied to genetics. Though I support your idea of rival mechanics and branching paths

 

[aono]

Why do you keep assuming Spiritualism =/= Science? I'm a spiritualist, I'm also religious, and I completely support science.

In-universe, we're dealing with something "irrational," truly outside of scientific understanding. (Of course, it's hard to wrap our heads around this, because reality doesn't *have* anything outside of scientific understanting.)

I don't. Luzahn did.

The ghosts busters are spiritualists by definition of this game. They believe there is something besides this physical universe.

So, when materialists killing Unbidden and close portal?.. Materialists are opposed "divine spark". "There is not demons, gods, spirits or such things, but parallel universes? Why not? Unbidden are not gods, they just energy form of life from alternative universe."
Also if you're read spiritualist description, there is nothing about "physical universe" there. Fanatic one speaks about MATERIAL ('hard matter') one, but, you know, current materialistics physics have a couple of words about energy or, for example, gases.

You can be spiritualist, egalitarian, militarist and whatever government type any of those allows.

What can that mean? Well, the country is a representative republic that cares about the military, equality, and finding out more about the non-physical world.

No. That means country is a representative republic with militant, equality and spiritual ideas spread among population, and when thing going to governments, spiritualism is not something anybody intrested. You can ponder mysteries of Universe as long as you want, but your politics build on equality.
If you want to build your politics on spiritualism, you take your choice with spiritualism in demanding. And, well, it's teocracies.

 

[Arkangilos]

I don't. Luzahn did.


So, when materialists killing Unbidden and close portal?.. Materialists are opposed "divine spark". "There is not demons, gods, spirits or such things, but parallel universes? Why not? Unbidden are not gods, they just energy form of life from alternative universe."
Also if you're read spiritualist description, there is nothing about "physical universe" there. Fanatic one speaks about MATERIAL ('hard matter') one, but, you know, current materialistics physics have a couple of words about energy or, for example, gases.

Alright, I'm having a hard time trying to actually figure out what you are trying to say there. But here is my response:

... Which is why I said it would make sense for your pops to become more spiritualist when the unbidden happen. Then, as a government you have a choice to try and suppress the spiritualist movement, or you have to choice to reform your government's ethos to go with it and then actually devote resources into it.

 

[Nicegye]

Im just waiting for this to drop so I can play the game again and PURGE ALL THE XENOS FILTH.

and make ringworlds.

 

[aono]

Which is why I said it would make sense for your pops to become more spiritualist when the unbidden happen. Then, as a government you have a choice to try and suppress the spiritualist movement, or you have to choice to reform your government's ethos to go with it and then actually devote resources into it.

And once again - why? Nothing in description of ethics forbids materialist to acnowledge existance of parallel universies inhabited by energy creatures. After all, sensors can see them!

 

[Arkangilos]

In Warhammer Warp IS empirical state of being, with souls and daemons, it actually exists and is (was) a subject of scientific research

This is what I was referring to. You can be spiritualist and scientifically study it. That's why I don't get why you think that just because they studied it scientifically, they aren't spiritualist. Scientifically studying it in no way goes against spiritualism.

 

[Arkangilos]

And once again - why? Nothing in description of ethics forbids materialist to acnowledge existance of parallel universies inhabited by energy creatures. After all, sensors can see them!

This is part of the description for Materialism:
"As we reach for the stars, we must put away childish things; gods, spirits and other phantasms of the brain."

 

[Madzai]

The way I view it, you can have one and only one of the two following things:
1) Distinct ethics that have their own unique playstyles.
2) No ethics restrictions on mechanics.

I consider #1 to be more important, so that's the direction we'll be going. It'll be fully moddable, of course.

That's the point of ethic scale then? If you force them down "the unique playstyle"?
At least in other 4X games races have at least some kind of backstory to support their preferred style. Stellaris was different because it allow you to choose how to play different ethic combinations. With 1.5 in will be a narrow road supported both by Traditions and Ascension perks that in theory were supposed to make gameplay more diverse.

 

[aono]

This is what I was referring to. You can be spiritualist and scientifically study it. That's why I don't get why you think that just because they studied it scientifically, they aren't spiritualist. Scientifically studying it in no way goes against spiritualism.

Of course, and I agree with you. Well, when humans studied warp, they were materialists, but point stands. You can't just say, as Luzhan did, that something can't be studied scientifically and that's why "it's spiritual, not materialistic".

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

This is what I was referring to. You can be spiritualist and scientifically study it. That's why I don't get why you think that just because they studied it scientifically, they aren't spiritualist. Scientifically studying it in no way goes against spiritualism.

I think the "Spiritualists hate science!" meme comes from them being opposed to the research-boosting Materialist ethic; however, a Materialist empire can fail to take advantage of that boost, and a Spiritualist empire can devote entire worlds to research labs- its not as if the SPiritualists get a penalty to research.

 

[Arkangilos]

Of course, and I agree with you. Well, when humans studied warp, they were materialists, but point stands. You can't just say, as Luzhan did, that something can't be studied scientifically and that's why "it's spiritual, not materialistic".

No they weren't. They were still spiritualists. This is what I'm talking about. You keep saying studying is part of Materialism, BUT IT IS NOT.

 

[Heretic Saint]

And I'm pretty sure that if the government is offering something beneficial for free, the majority of the population will take it. Environmental adaptations to the planet type they inhabit in particular.

Possibly (barring religious concerns or "truther" skepticism), but at this point we've also gone away from "selling" it. My criticism was founded mainly on the idea that an egalitarian society was compatible with genetic enhancements being distributed only to those who can afford it.

If that wasn't an intentional emphasis, I apologize for having mis-read your intent.

Why do you keep assuming Spiritualism =/= Science? I'm a spiritualist, I'm also religious, and I completely support science.

Indeed, which is why some people don't understand why Government Ethos should bar a certain type of research.

Especially when it's Non-Spiritual or even Materialist Ethos supposedly banning research into psionics. It'd make more sense for a Spiritual Government to ban research into robotics (though even this is a stretch, and subject to how you interpret an empire's culture), yet so far this isn't planned to happen. Feels so inconsistent!

The ghosts busters are spiritualists by definition of this game. They believe there is something besides this physical universe. The government (in ghost busters) on the other hand was Materialist. They laughed at the group, called them liars, and said it was hallucinations.

Ehh, here I'd disagree. You don't have to be spiritual to believe that there is something besides what contemporary scientific dogma suggests. That's why a lot of scientific principles such as relativity are dubbed "theories" rather than "facts". What was spiritual about the Copernican revolution, for example, which replaced the geocentric theory with the heliocentric? It was started by a simple observation of a comet, quite an ordinary scientific process.

The same applies to the Ghostbusters, given that they used technology to measure and interact with paranormal phenomena. This is different from "pseudoscience" that puts forth practices which cannot be proven by scientific method.

 

[aono]

"As we reach for the stars, we must put away childish things; gods, spirits and other phantasms of the brain."

So what? Who said everything that is from parallel universe is god or spirit? Kirk visited Mirror Universe - but it don't make mirror Kirk god or demon.
We should drop everything that can't be proved as existing, phantomes of the brain. Unbidden are real, they're on scaners. So do daemons in WH40K.

You keep saying studying is part of Materialism, BUT IT IS NOT.

No. I'm saying that DAT humanity was atheistic, rational and refuse to acnowledge existence of anything their scanners couldn't actually see. THAT'S why they were materialists, not because they studied something.

 

[Arkangilos]

... Just because you are a spiritualist does NOT mean you worship something. How many times do we have to show you the description until you understand that's Spiritualism =/= worship

 

[Arkangilos]

Ehh, here I'd disagree. You don't have to be spiritual to believe that there is something besides what contemporary scientific dogma suggests

We are arguing semantics. Materialism in this game is believing that contemporary scientific dogma is all there is. Spiritualism is saying there is more to existence than that.

For example, even if I said there is absolutely no god, that does not make me a Materialist.
What makes me a Materialist is if I *also* said that all there was was this world, no others. There are no spirits, no apporations, nothing. If a daemon came through I would deny that it exists. Now, I make up my first government, and my friends and I are all that are there. I say, "ok, we will only study this world, because it's all there is." Now that government is Materialist, and will not study psychics.

On the other hand, I may not believe in a god, but I could believe there is something more than the physical. That would make me a spiritualist. I then form a government with that ethos, and that government is willing to do research into it.

 

[aono]

... Just because you are a spiritualist does NOT mean you worship something. How many times do we have to show you the description until you understand that's Spiritualism =/= worship

Spiritualist is a man, by description, who believes there is grand order of the universe, that universe is caring, that we're not pointless. That's spiritualism - in-game. "There are those think it behooves us to remember how tiny we are, how pointless our lives in this vast uncaring universe... What nonsense!" Yeah, that's natural foundation for religion. That's why every spiritualistic government is theocracy. That's why if they're agressive, they are trying to spread their faith. That's why they defend "holy" worlds.

Materialism in this game is believing that contemporary scientific dogma is all there is.

Oh really? Contemporary scientific dogma refuses FTL, year-based species morphism, possibility to actual use antimatter to produce a lot of energy and actually is quite sceptical about xenolife.