CK2 Dev Diary #40: Visiting the Cartographer

[ninoallen]

Hurray !!! Venice has finally been saved from the monster that is the ERE, hopefully now we can also save the Nubians and eastern Africans from the muslims???

 

[Karlingid]

Today Finno-Ugric languages are mainly associated by arctic and subarctic climates, with taiga and tundra regions, that were often characterized by hunting, gathering and semi-nomad reindeer husbandry up until the modern age. The case however was much different as recently, as a millennium ago. For centuries, the northwards advance of the Slavic-speaking population was steady in the region, slowly but steadily assimilating Finno-Permian speaking groups. This means, that the further we look back into history, the further south we find the Slavo-Finnic language boundary. About 1000-1300 years ago, the area of the present day Central Federal District of Russia was mainly inhabited by Finno-Permian groups, such as the Merya, the Muroma, and the Meshcher.342 Judged by the number of speakers it is a relatively small entity, but in view of its territorial extension it is, in fact, one of the larger families in the world. Both the wide territorial extension of the Uralic languages and the small volume of the Uralic comparative corpus suggest that it is an ‘old’ family, that is, that it was formed a long time ago."

I was never arguing for a Finno-Ugric empire, and I recognized the Merya, Muroma, and Meshcher. My argument was that "98%" of Finno-Ugric peoples had not been destroyed.

 

[Ruwaard]

Hurray !!! Venice has finally been saved from the monster that is the ERE, hopefully now we can also save the Nubians and eastern Africans from the muslims???

It might be an idea to transfer Croatia to Carpathia in 1102, when the Personal Union with Hungary started; and Sicily (and thus also Naples and Trinacria) to Italia from 1130 onwards (when Roger II received the crown from Anti-Pope Anacletus II, later recognized by Pope Innocent II in 1139).

 

[es333]

I was never arguing for a Finno-Ugric empire, and I recognized the Merya, Muroma, and Meshcher. My argument was that "98%" of Finno-Ugric peoples had not been destroyed.

"Judged by the number of speakers it is a relatively small entity, but in view of its territorial extension it is, in fact, one of the larger families in the world. Both the wide territorial extension of the Uralic languages and the small volume of the Uralic comparative corpus suggest that it is an ‘old’ family, that is, that it was formed a long time ago."

If you look at the geographic extent of the language family and many of the survivors are living in the Arctic and Sub-arctic areas then what happened to the Finno-Ugrians who lived in the temperate region, covering thousands of kilometers, for thousands of years. They're all gone, mostly assimilated.

Just try to draw parallels with the Celts, once dominating Western and Central-Europe, but now surviving only on the fringes of their former areas.

 

[Karlingid]

"Judged by the number of speakers it is a relatively small entity, but in view of its territorial extension it is, in fact, one of the larger families in the world. Both the wide territorial extension of the Uralic languages and the small volume of the Uralic comparative corpus suggest that it is an ‘old’ family, that is, that it was formed a long time ago."

If you look at the geographic extent of the language family and many of the survivors are living in the Arctic and Sub-arctic areas then what happened to the Finno-Ugrians who lived in the temperate region, covering thousands of kilometers, for thousands of years. They're all gone, mostly assimilated.

Just try to draw parallels with the Celts, once dominating Western and Central-Europe, but now surviving only on the fringes of their former areas.

And yet only three types of Celt have actually gone extinct: Gauls, Celtiberians, and Picts, and the third of those was due to assimilation by the neighboring Gaels, another Celtic group. We are aware of the cultures that were assimilated by Slavs and they're very closely related, if not necessarily subgroups, of the still-existing Mordvin peoples. I cannot stress enough that, in this situation, you are arguing against expert analysis for some sort of immense bastion of massive internal diversity where modern experts, archaeologists, and analysts can find no more than 6 distinct groups that went extinct linguistically. Of these, 3 are Samoyedic, not Finno-Ugric. Other groups, subgroups of still-existing peoples, went extinct within the past 100 years. Of the 3 extinct languages, Akkala Sami still have non-native and bilingual speakers. Of the remaining 3, the Merya people still profess an independent national identity, but do not speak the extinct Merya language. Despite this, they uphold their culture regardless, and even hold a flag of their own. The Meshchera sold a large village to a Slavic prince, and were recorded by contemporaries to speak the Mordvin language, and modern analysis points to them being a group of Mordvins rather than a complete separate group. The last extinct group, the Murom, appear to have been closely related to the Merya. This tallies up to 3 extinct Samoyedic groups, 3 Finnic groups assimilated by their similarly Finnic neighbors, and 1 Volga Finnic group with completely separate identity having gone extinct.

Finno-Ugric is an above-average size language family, and it covers a large area, but there's simple not that much room for missing ethnic groups to have not only escaped written record and gone completely extinct, but to also leave no archaeological record behind, and furthermore to cram a great diversity between gaps of what are otherwise quite spaced-out ethnic regions.

 

[John Ambrose]

Are you ever going to add the Channel Islands and the Scilly Isles to the map? Maybe with the Channel Islands as an actual holding? And the Scilly Isles just on the map? Always thought it looked odd without these.

 

[es333]

And yet only three types of Celt have actually gone extinct: Gauls, Celtiberians, and Picts, and the third of those was due to assimilation by the neighboring Gaels, another Celtic group. We are aware of the cultures that were assimilated by Slavs and they're very closely related, if not necessarily subgroups, of the still-existing Mordvin peoples. I cannot stress enough that, in this situation, you are arguing against expert analysis for some sort of immense bastion of massive internal diversity where modern experts, archaeologists, and analysts can find no more than 6 distinct groups that went extinct linguistically. Of these, 3 are Samoyedic, not Finno-Ugric. Other groups, subgroups of still-existing peoples, went extinct within the past 100 years. Of the 3 extinct languages, Akkala Sami still have non-native and bilingual speakers. Of the remaining 3, the Merya people still profess an independent national identity, but do not speak the extinct Merya language. Despite this, they uphold their culture regardless, and even hold a flag of their own. The Meshchera sold a large village to a Slavic prince, and were recorded by contemporaries to speak the Mordvin language, and modern analysis points to them being a group of Mordvins rather than a complete separate group. The last extinct group, the Murom, appear to have been closely related to the Merya. This tallies up to 3 extinct Samoyedic groups, 3 Finnic groups assimilated by their similarly Finnic neighbors, and 1 Volga Finnic group with completely separate identity having gone extinct.

Finno-Ugric is an above-average size language family, and it covers a large area, but there's simple not that much room for missing ethnic groups to have not only escaped written record and gone completely extinct, but to also leave no archaeological record behind, and furthermore to cram a great diversity between gaps of what are otherwise quite spaced-out ethnic regions.

So your main point is that the cultures have survived, but the Uralic language family has just lost massive amounts of land during the Indo-European expansion into Northern-Europe? I understand your point.

 

[Karlingid]

So your main point is that the cultures have survived, but the Uralic language family has just lost massive amounts of land during the Indo-European expansion into Northern-Europe? I understand your point.

Basically, yes. Most of the cultures have survived, however they are significantly reduced.

 

[Helios Panoptes]

Let's not forget that Anatolia used to match roughly with the Sultanate of Rum. Apart from classical connotations, I'd assumed that was the practical purpose of its borders.

I think it was supposed to be. k_greece is pretty much the borders of Byzantium during the Komnenoi period minus Trebizond, after all.

 

[Kalderus]

I think it was supposed to be. k_greece is pretty much the borders of Byzantium during the Komnenoi period minus Trebizond, after all.

The bigger problem is that now, in the 1066 start date, if Alp Arslan and the Seljuks succeed at an invasion of Anatolia (after they very likely take Armenia from the buffoon Konstantinos X), then they will take the entire Asia Minor-Aegean coastline, which will look at least a little odd that early.

 

[Helios Panoptes]

The bigger problem is that now, in the 1066 start date, if Alp Arslan and the Seljuks succeed at an invasion of Anatolia (after they very likely take Armenia from the buffoon Konstantinos X), then they will take the entire Asia Minor-Aegean coastline, which will look at least a little odd that early.

But that lines up perfectly with 1081.

And it keeps 1081 from having the Crusade for Greece.

 

[Thure]

The bigger problem is that now, in the 1066 start date, if Alp Arslan and the Seljuks succeed at an invasion of Anatolia (after they very likely take Armenia from the buffoon Konstantinos X), then they will take the entire Asia Minor-Aegean coastline, which will look at least a little odd that early.

Ehem... Anatolia in 1081:

 

[nNagato]

I personally thinks Samos should remain in Greece because it was an important "Greek" place I believe (Like Ephasus? Is it?) even though geographically it indeed may seem more suitable to be put in Anatolia. Trebizond I think should be more like a titular kingdom than de-jure where you can only create if you are independent. Moving Venice de-jure to Italy is going to significantly harm some Byzantine Emperor starts, but is an acceptable and reasonable thing to do.

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

Ehem... Anatolia in 1081:

Why no Armenia? They still owned the land around the the Ceyhan since at least the year before this. The Byzantines also still controlled Antalya, the coast of Paphlagonia, the area around Maiandrus river, and a few scattered other places.

 

[Andrelvis]

Hooray for more accurate geography. Any chance we will see another map projection technique used in the future?

What do you have in mind? An equirectangular projection would IMO be great for games like Europa Universalis IV and Victoria II. Not sure what I would choose for CK2 though.

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

What do you have in mind? An equirectangular projection would IMO be great for games like Europa Universalis IV and Victoria II. Not sure what I would choose for CK2 though.

I used Albers Equal Area Conic for mine, and it seems to work well in addition to providing a replicable dataset for different projections if you start on equirectangular.

(Disregarding the bad positions) It tends to work well in-engine with this projection, too.

 

[Vaximillian]

@CrackdToothGrin, now if only you were able to resume working on that mod… that would have been unspeakably awesome.

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

@CrackdToothGrin, now if only you were able to resume working on that mod… that would have been unspeakably awesome.

I've decided to wait until the last DLC is confirmed, whenever and if-ever that's confirmed and then I'll do it. I have precious little time outside actual work to constantly be on the look-out for compatches and updates.

 

[Nikwax74]

Great news on the Danube modification!

Now only if you could rename Szekesfehervar "county" to Somogy, as Szekesfehervar is (and was) actually the capital city of County Fejer.
Hungary should look like this: http://laszlorex.hu/sztlaszlo/terkep.jpg

 

[SBolshevik]

Great news on the Danube modification!

Now only if you could rename Szekesfehervar "county" to Somogy, as Szekesfehervar is (and was) actually the capital city of County Fejer.
Hungary should look like this: http://laszlorex.hu/sztlaszlo/terkep.jpg

Considering you're the third person to report this on this very thread, you'd be better off making a separate thread in the Suggestions subforum, where it won't be buried by troves of other posts.