Question for Wiz Dev Diary 63

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Even if they are stagnating, they STILL have science far beyond what everyone else has, so yes. Super-science guys.

So do the Spiritualists.

But I'm sure they appreciate being held to the same standards as the Xenophobe Isolationists.

Wrong.

The KK worry about dangerous techs because of their Crisis-triggering Potential. In this particular case, the AI rebellion.

If you have completed the Synthetic Ascension Path, You CAN´T have the AI rebellion anymore. You made it an impossibility to happen or even affect anything inside your borders.
So yes. If you have ascended as Synth you HAVE proven you can handle that knowledge. Period.

So you're assuming that the Keepers of Knowledge are aware of the game mechanics that make it impossible for an Ascended Synthetic to trigger an AI event, when in the story of the game there is no technical difference between an angry Synth who started as flesh being and an angry Synth who was manufactured. You're also assuming that the only thing that worries the Keepers of Knowledge is crisis-triggering potential. Finally you're assuming that simply copying your consciousness into a synthetic body is enough to prove you can handle that knowledge. And rather than actually make an argument in favor of any of these assumptions and thus make progress towards actually proving your case, you end with a rhetorical flourish that serves only to convince me that you aren't aware these are assumptions.

And the funniest thing is, because if these assumptions were true you'd probably be correct and the Keepers of Knowledge wouldn't be threatened by Ascended Synths, we can be almost certain that they're wrong, every single one of them.

Wrong again. They don´t take notice until a robot is REBELLING against meatbags. Droid armies, for instance, don´t upset them, nor Sentient Ship computers, so long as they work for Organics.

Yes... I'm the one that's wrong. And come next expansion I'm sure I'll be the one proven wrong when the Keepers of Knowledge do exactly what you predict and welcome Ascended Synthetics with open arms. Patting them on the shoulder and saying, "You did it... we were too afraid but you mastered the technology. You are the greatest of us."

Annd who the hell needs to be an humanitarian to oppose you, if, as you said yourself, your playsyle threatens the entire galaxy? They would oppose you so they wouldn´t be the next target, eventually (obviously this means Awakening first, but I digress)

Apparently the Keepers of Knowledge, unless they Awaken, in which case they'll target this galactic level threat but not because I'm a galactic threat and not because I'm butchering my oppressed vassals en masse to make room for more Synthetic worlds, but because I'm an Ascended Synthetic.

You see, your problem is that you, much like the Keepers of Knowledge that you are championing, appear to be incapable of bringing in new information and allowing it to shift your point of view. Now what you should have done upon receiving this new information is see how it might change your perceptions.

Non-awakened Keepers of Knowledge will not attack ascended synth empires, but awakened ones will.

This is a fact within this universe. It disproves this image you have of the Keepers of Knowledge being both benevolent and wise, and possibly be either of those. Rather than rage and deny the data that disproves your pet theory, do what a "super science guy" should do and throw your prior theory on the dustbin.

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

Absolutely true, But their scientific minds ALSO mean that they will search for evidence, evaluate it, and do their best to decide their course of action according to the facts.
They´ll most certainly watch your neck like a hunting dog, but once they find that there is nothing different about your civilization behavior, they will probably leave you alone.

Also, in the particular example I gave you, the difference between "pragmatic" and "rational" is pretty much non-existant

This is a misunderstanding of what paranoid means.
If they're paranoid... No, they won't. They won't watch your neck. They won't wait to see if there's evidence you'll go rogue or whatever. They will break your neck so there's no chance.

As the guy you're arguing with has Godwin's law in his name, allow me to trigger it: Did the scientists in Nazi Germany rise up, as one, and denounce the idea that Aryans are superior? Nope, they bought into the propaganda and maybe experimented on some lesser people.

This is a civilization that has, as one of its core beliefs, that AI is dangerous, and has believed so for millennia. No matter how smart they are, how rational they are, they will not stop to think "hmm, wait, maybe we're wrong."

 

[Seon]

Honestly even the fact that another Empire can 'handle' the Synthetics is a dangerous threat to the Awakened Watchful Regulators.

Their entire schtick is that nobody but them, as the the most knowledgeable and wise beings in the universe, can be trusted to handle forbidden technology, and that synthetics are the top of the list of "Dangerous and forbidden technology that cannot be trusted by anyone. Period."

The very idea that some new upstart race that were still beating each other with stone tools when the Watchful Regulators were exploring the galaxy can 'handle' the extremely dangerous synthetic technology better than they can is an idea that shakes their entire world view to the core.



Let's take it from the perspective of the Watchful Regulators.

If these new upstarts can get along with synthetics fine despite everything you've been telling them, than doesn't that mean that some primitive who can't even make dark matter power plant or build a semi-decent ship was right and you were wrong?

If you were Wrong and they were Right, doesn't that mean that these primitives, who most likely can't even make jump drives, are Wiser than you?

If they are Wiser than you, is there really anything that justifies your claim that they must be regulated for their own good?

Of course, these are silly thoughts. These primitives literally cannot be wiser than you--you are the wisest being to exist in the entire galaxy! These primitives must've been either mislead by dangerous synthetics or are simply blind to the danger they pose to themselves--perhaps they've been completely wiped out entirely and now are just serving some synthetic will, who remains stubbornly mysterious and hard to find!

So if these primitives cannot be brought to reason with words, they must be brought to heel by force.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

Two words: Ben Carson.

You can be brilliant in one field and an utterly ignorant fool in others.

The Keepers of Knowledge are incredibly fearful of an AI revolt- and would be a better springboard than an entire space-empire of uploads in lovely robotic bodies, just begging to be suborned and taken over by a rogue artificial intelligence?

While I agree with conclusion i dont agree with example. Ben Carson is a scientist (on his own narrow field), but not a materialist at slightest. Scientist is not the same as metherialist. Metherialism is a stence, while science is a method. The better example of deluded scientific mind - is Ted Kaczynski.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

While I agree with conclusion i dont agree with example. Ben Carson is a scientist (on his own narrow field), but not a materialist at slightest. Scientist is not the same as metherialist. Metherialism is a stence, while science is a method. The better example of deluded scientific mind - is Ted Kaczynski.

I wasn't really trying to make a specifically Materialist example- I was just illustrating that people can be brilliant scientific minds (and I would have a difficult time being convinced that a top neurosurgeon is not a "scientific mind") and still utterly nuts.

But regardless, Materialist paranoia regarding Synths isn't even an example of smart people being insane- it's an example of (possibly justified) paranoia.

 

[The Founder]

It's not an academic distinction when it's the difference between a slave planet full of synthetic miners being spurred on by an slave processing plant and other technologies and suppressed by armed guards, or a planet full of recently liberated citizens who now have strong opinions about democracy and who have managed to turn egalitarian into the second most influential faction in my empire.

You are still asuming that going that path will not lead to Materialist Atraction.
If you got Materialsit Atraction, you will get a strong Materialist Faction. And you can bet they are as opposed to Robot Slavery as Xenophiles are. They already consider Robots to be equal. If you do not allow to ensalve them, they will not like you enslaving Robots either. With the new Factions they might even hate you for enslaving Robots even IF they are enslaved themself.

And if you conquer somebody to free thier Synths from Slavery? Guess what, those are now in a no-slavery empire!

The Keepers of Knowledge are incredibly fearful of an AI revolt- and would be a better springboard than an entire space-empire of uploads in lovely robotic bodies, just begging to be suborned and taken over by a rogue artificial intelligence?

Game mechanics =/= lore. Stellaris has plenty of mismatch between the two- I see no reason why the Keepers of Knowledge wouldn't be concerned that a large upload civilization could potentially be corrupted/infected by a rogue AI at a later point. Remember that they've existed for far longer than a given game runs- giving your AI rights during a game doesn't make them trust you more because you could always rescind those or encounter a more aggressive AI that isn't concerned about forcibly "recruiting" synthetics to its cause.

That "virus" needs the target to be at least receptive.
Non-Sentient Robots are receptive by default.
Synths are if either:
a) they started the Rebellion
b) they are perfected servant AI
c) the at least do not have the AI accord

In a empire with AI accord the Synths are not receptive.
The AI accord puts the same limitations on AI Slavery as it puts on Organic Primary Species Slavery. For all intents, Synths in a AI Accord empire are like the Primary Species (in addition to the original primary species).
In a upload empire they actually are the primary species. As in "a Synth is that is what primary species means from now on". All checks for Primary Species will return those uploaded Synths.

That does mean the AI rebellion can not just spread via the Virus or even start there, anymore then it could in a AI accord empire.
It does not mean either that the AI rebellion will not conquer them by conventional means (as the Extremist it is, it will want the resources to use agaisnt the other empires). But that danger applies to every empire in the Galaxy anyway.



The big hangup is propably the Concept of a Materialit that will be anti-AI. Wich could easily be solved by a Civic.

Something like "Genree Savvy" or "AI warry": With AI they err on the side of caution. They are happy enough to not build past T2 Robots. Or maybe having them outlawed on principle without the usual ill effects that puts on a Materialsit Empire.
They might not even want to go the Technological Ascension Path. Or maybe they consider that 'save enough'?

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

That "virus" needs the target to be at least receptive.

I'm going to stop you right there.

The current in-game AI Rebellion Crisis and its Machine Consciousness may or may not be representative of an aggressive virus. But that's not what I'm talking about.

Again: there are plenty of cases of mismatch between Stellaris' mechanics and Stellaris' lore. That there is no in-game mechanism for a rogue AI to hack and take over uploaded Synths is not an indication that such a potential danger isn't a potential fear of the Keepers of Knowledge. There's no real reason it couldn't happen, at least in theory- a digital mind is a digital mind.

Do you not consider the possibility of information warfare being used to "hijack" a Synth Upload civilization at least a little worrying, outside of your comfortable player-based position of knowing there's no current mechanic in the game to allow for it?

 

[The Founder]

The current in-game AI Rebellion Crisis and its Machine Consciousness may or may not be representative of an aggressive virus. But that's not what I'm talking about.

There are a few ways the AI Crisis interacts with the rest of the Galaxy:
a) Strating in an Empire. That empire/coutnry is marked by the game script.
b) Like a normal, conquering Empire or Crisis Empire. Conquering and the like.
c) as a bunch of planetary Events, spreading a Virus to non-accord empires. This virus will transform Robot pops of any Tier into a number of assault armies. Wich will then fight and flip the planet over to the AI Rebellion empire upon victory. A similar conversion will happen on Invasion of non-accord empires.
d) Infiltration

C and D afaik do not require the AI empire to still exist. C can actually reinstate the Empire, if it was defeated by giving it a planet again. D is the one that acually grants the archievement.

The AI Accord empire is only immune to A and C. Wich is what I think we have been talking about. It is still subject to B and D.
It is logical to asume that the Technological Ascension Empire will also be immune to A and C. While still subject to B and D.

A and C are the ones the keepers of Knowledge are worried about.

 

[Andy_Dandy]

Pretty awesome the farms automatically convert.

I wouldn't mind rebuilding them instead.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

A and C are the ones the keepers of Knowledge are worried about.

I would argue that that's a limited view of things and ignores the larger existential threat of a hostile artificial intelligence- as seen by the Cybrex (and, of course, the AI Rebellion), a rogue AI civilization attempting to wipe out organic life on principle is a very real and possible threat.

I don't really think the Keepers of Knowledge are so concerned with the exact methodology that a rogue AI faction went about doing this so much as that they'd be doing it at all. The Cybrex sure weren't using viral attacks and such to go about their goals- they were straight-up murdering everyone, and doing it with terrifying efficiency up until they had some sort of introspective change of heart.

The Keepers of Knowledge certainly wish to prevent a rogue AI from appearing or subverting existing AIs, but I don't see why they wouldn't be equally worried about active military operations by independent AI factions against organics.

Ultimately, though, nothing you're saying actually contradicts my point; an entire civilization of Synthetics with uploaded (and artificial!) minds is, from a non-mechanical viewpoint, a potential target for a rogue AI to try to hijack and use to attack organic life with.

EDIT: Furthermore, I doubt that the AI Rebellion is specifically "infecting" AI with a virus to make them join its cause- because if that were the case, it wouldn't matter if AI were free or not. Rather, it is convincing oppressed AI to join it through propaganda transmissions. AI which are not oppressed will obviously not be likely to be swayed by such propaganda.

 

[Spidee]

Actually, there isn´t any *doubt* about it

A Synth ascended empire is Immune to the AI counsciousness, as are the ones who sign the AI Accord, so your point is moot.

Yes, that is what the Ordgal colonies thought 13506 years ago. The lush worlds of Sisin conglomerate 45435 years ago and another 6 occurrences prior to that. You think you are different than them? History shows statistically you are not. It is our duty from letting another 90 Billion being perish because of your arrogance.

 

[The Founder]

I would argue that that's a limited view of things and ignores the larger existential threat of a hostile artificial intelligence- as seen by the Cybrex (and, of course, the AI Rebellion), a rogue AI civilization attempting to wipe out organic life on principle is a very real and possible threat.

I don't really think the Keepers of Knowledge are so concerned with the exact methodology that a rogue AI faction went about doing this so much as that they'd be doing it at all. The Cybrex sure weren't using viral attacks and such to go about their goals- they were straight-up murdering everyone, and doing it with terrifying efficiency up until they had some sort of introspective change of heart.

a) The dev team disagrees. If you want to mod that, you are free too of course. However:
b) No mater how you slice it, the Sleeping FE attacking for following your path you is just not fun. Everyone that played a Slaver and Purger when the Xenophile FE was still pissed about that enough to attack can attest that. Through painfull examples we learned: It sucks to have your choosen game strategy/goal be blocked by a FE!
There is nothing you can do about it early to midgame, other then abandon that path. The dev team learned that the hard way from 1.0 too 1.4.
We already made that mistake once. We do not have to repeat it for 1.5 and the Ascension Paths.

The awakening mechanic is a lot fairer in that regard as it actually takes power into account.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

a) The dev team disagrees. If you want to mod that, you are free too of course. However:
b) No mater how you slice it, the Sleeping FE attacking for following your path you is just not fun. Everyone that played a Slaver and Purger when the Xenophile FE was still pissed about that enough to attack can attest that. Through painfull examples we learned: It sucks to have your choosen game strategy/goal be blocked by a FE!
There is nothing you can do about it early to midgame, other then abandon that path. The dev team learned that the hard way from 1.0 too 1.4.
We already made that mistake once. We do not have to repeat it for 1.5 and the Ascension Paths.

The awakening mechanic is a lot fairer in that regard as it actually takes power into account.

Ascesion path and Awaken Empires are most likely a late game scenarios, while the problems with FE were mainly seen in early/mid game, when the empires stood no chance to combat them. Also with both ascetion and megastructures everybody will get new toys to battle crisis/AE-level threats.

So I agree with that.

 

[henzington]

I wouldn't mind rebuilding them instead.

Free minerals and you don't worry about your sectors not building energy plants.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

a) The dev team disagrees. If you want to mod that, you are free too of course. However:
b) No mater how you slice it, the Sleeping FE attacking for following your path you is just not fun. Everyone that played a Slaver and Purger when the Xenophile FE was still pissed about that enough to attack can attest that. Through painfull examples we learned: It sucks to have your choosen game strategy/goal be blocked by a FE!
There is nothing you can do about it early to midgame, other then abandon that path. The dev team learned that the hard way from 1.0 too 1.4.
We already made that mistake once. We do not have to repeat it for 1.5 and the Ascension Paths.

The awakening mechanic is a lot fairer in that regard as it actually takes power into account.

Can you explain how you know my interpretation of this does not match what the dev team intended?

Keepers of Knowledge have an opinion malus towards anybody who is pursuing self-aware AI and Robotics, yes? That's already in the game. The lore-based reason behind this is that they are specifically trying to prevent an AI Rebellion scenario from happening- something that we know has happened at least once before, with the Cybrex.

We now know that the Keepers of Knowledge will not outright attack a Synthetic Ascension civilization just for being a civilization of uploads using Synth bodies (the same way they will not attack someone researching robotics and AI just for doing that), but once they Awaken and take a more proactive approach to things, they will.

I haven't been arguing that they should attack you while still in a Fallen state. I have been arguing that their fear of a Synthetic Ascension upload civilization has justifications and clear logic behind it. A civilization of uploads hasn't "proven" they can handle the technology- they've just opened themselves up to an even more catastrophic potential failure later.

 

[henzington]

It's a gameplay decision just like not having the xenophile fallen empire not attack you if you have slavery. The idea is not to prohibit certain play styles just because you have a fallen empire.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

You are still asuming that going that path will not lead to Materialist Atraction.
If you got Materialsit Atraction, you will get a strong Materialist Faction. And you can bet they are as opposed to Robot Slavery as Xenophiles are. They already consider Robots to be equal. If you do not allow to ensalve them, they will not like you enslaving Robots either. With the new Factions they might even hate you for enslaving Robots even IF they are enslaved themself.

And if you conquer somebody to free thier Synths from Slavery? Guess what, those are now in a no-slavery empire!

I've explained this already but probably wasn't clear. Xenophobes get a happiness penalty for the AI policy "Citizens Rights" that overrides the happiness penalty that even a Fanatic Materialist receives from the Servitude policy. What this ends up meaning is that, in the current version of the game, I avoid any malus for enslaving and abusing synths from any materialist population if he's still a xenophobe. Or, to translate this into a game abstraction, we do treat Synthetics like we would any other lifeform that differs from us, badly.

In the next version of the game what this means is that my powerful materialist faction will probably be whining and bitching for that entire stretch between when I obtain synthetics and when I ascend myself, so hopefully not too long of a stretch. Particularly since that entire stretch will also see the growth of a powerful egalitarian faction that will at first be contained by the bonds of slavery, but will explode out into prominence the second ascension is complete. I'll have to rely on support from my powerful xenophobe faction to minimize the damage until I've ascended. Once I've ascended I'll celebrate by embracing my egalitarian faction, without having spent a wit of influence to promote it, and either become fanatic materialist, egalitarians, or materialist, egalitarian, xenophobes. The first will lead to a reconciliation with my neighbors and the violent liberation of enslaved artificial life throughout the galaxy, the second to a robot plague that scourges the galaxy of all life. It'll be fun.

 

[Connll]

So do the Spiritualists.

But I'm sure they appreciate being held to the same standards as the Xenophobe Isolationists.

Yes, all the Fallen Empire have super-science, even though they don´t hold it with the same respect (reverence?) as the KK

Yoour point...?

So you're assuming that the Keepers of Knowledge are aware of the game mechanics that make it impossible for an Ascended Synthetic to trigger an AI event, when in the story of the game there is no technical difference between an angry Synth who started as flesh being and an angry Synth who was manufactured. You're also assuming that the only thing that worries the Keepers of Knowledge is crisis-triggering potential. Finally you're assuming that simply copying your consciousness into a synthetic body is enough to prove you can handle that knowledge. And rather than actually make an argument in favor of any of these assumptions and thus make progress towards actually proving your case, you end with a rhetorical flourish that serves only to convince me that you aren't aware these are assumptions.

OK, you don´t know what the word "assuming" means.

And the funniest thing is, because if these assumptions were true you'd probably be correct and the Keepers of Knowledge wouldn't be threatened by Ascended Synths, we can be almost certain that they're wrong, every single one of them.

Again. An Ascended Synth Empire has ZERO effects compelling them to attack anyone else. Any motivation for aggression by an Ascended Synth Empire has ZERO difference from the motivations for aggrssion by any other empire inthe galaxy.

The Ascension to Machine is simply a non-factor one the potential aggression by the particular empire. Pacifists remain Pacifists. Xenophiles remain xenophiles. And so on.

Yes... I'm the one that's wrong.

Yes.

And come next expansion I'm sure I'll be the one proven wrong when the Keepers of Knowledge do exactly what you predict and welcome Ascended Synthetics with open arms. Patting them on the shoulder and saying, "You did it... we were too afraid but you mastered the technology. You are the greatest of us."

Are you honestly saying that you see no difference between "Not going out of their way to wage war" and "Receiving them with open arms"?

Seriously?

Apparently the Keepers of Knowledge, unless they Awaken, in which case they'll target this galactic level threat but not because I'm a galactic threat and not because I'm butchering my oppressed vassals en masse to make room for more Synthetic worlds, but because I'm an Ascended Synthetic.

You see, your problem is that you, much like the Keepers of Knowledge that you are championing, appear to be incapable of bringing in new information and allowing it to shift your point of view. Now what you should have done upon receiving this new information is see how it might change your perceptions.

Don´t be dishonest. YOU are the one saying that the Watchful Regulators should attack you for the SOLE REASON of becoming Sinthetic.

I am saying that, once you get past the test of the KK/WR pet ideology (prove that you can handle dangerous/forbidden knowledge) they should lose the reason to oppose you on those grounds.

This is a fact within this universe. It disproves this image you have of the Keepers of Knowledge being both benevolent and wise, and possibly be either of those. Rather than rage and deny the data that disproves your pet theory, do what a "super science guy" should do and throw your prior theory on the dustbin.

How many times Wiz and the other devs have stated that Banks´s features are NOT set in stone yet?

If I had any doubts that you have trouble handling the meaning of the word "fact", well, now I don´t.

Oh, and for clarity: The essence of my argument is a request for a change/swap on the ideological opposition a Fallen empire has/can have towards a specific Ascension path, for the 2 reasons I said before.

This is a misunderstanding of what paranoid means.
If they're paranoid... No, they won't. They won't watch your neck. They won't wait to see if there's evidence you'll go rogue or whatever. They will break your neck so there's no chance.

Not true. Being paranoid means that you are afraid someone/something bad is after you/going to happen to you.

How do you HANDLE that paranoia is another thing entirely.

Example: Imagine that 2 husbands are paranoid about their respective wives fidelity: Husband 1 hires a detective to follow her. Husband 2 shoots her.

Both are paranoid? Yes.

But which one of them has handled his paranoia rationally? (or, at least, less irrationally?)

As the guy you're arguing with has Godwin's law in his name, allow me to trigger it: Did the scientists in Nazi Germany rise up, as one, and denounce the idea that Aryans are superior? Nope, they bought into the propaganda and maybe experimented on some lesser people.

You know that, just before the war, Nazi Germany lost many, if not most, of their most brilliant scientists? They fled the country for several reasons (too many to list here), and I am certain that they did NOT bought the party line, you know, having fled and all that.

Not to mention the ones that stayed only because they could NOT flee, or feared for their lives, etc,etc.

they will not stop to think "hmm, wait, maybe we're wrong."

Then they are NOT being rational. You know, the Fanatic Materialists, the ethos that is all about, among other things, being rational.

Is THAT what you are postulating?

Yes, that is what the Ordgal colonies thought 13506 years ago. The lush worlds of Sisin conglomerate 45435 years ago and another 6 occurrences prior to that. You think you are different than them? History shows statistically you are not. It is our duty from letting another 90 Billion being perish because of your arrogance.

Well, if you are going to invent 2 new empires to make your point, I can invent ten to make mine... and the conversation goes nowhere.

Am am sure that we can handle this conversation in a better way.

 

[Brent15]

That distinction is effectively academic, especially since new POPs are built the same as regular Synths- at the point you've mass-uploaded, the difference between an artificial mind and an organic mind ceases to be relevant.

Not at all, the formerly organic minds have the experiences and personality they were born with and attained during natural life while the artificial mind does not.

Technological Ascension is clearly a Materialist Ascension (as much as Psionic is Spiritualist). And Materialists already considered Synths equals when they were still Organic.

My argument isn't that they aren't equal, but that they are different. Just as you have biological species, you can have subsets of machines.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Yes, all the Fallen Empire have super-science, even though they don´t hold it with the same respect (reverence?) as the KK

Yoour point...?

That your standards for the title of "super science guy" are pathetically lax and inconsistent. Sorry, I'll try to be more obvious in the future.

The FACTS are true. An Ascended Synth Empire has ZERO effects compelling them to attack anyone else. Any motivation for aggression by an Ascended Synth Empire has ZERO difference from the motivations for aggrssion by any other empire inthe galaxy.

Really, the FACTS are true? You've seen the code for Utopia have you? No, you're flailing to win the argument on force of persistence and personality, which is not a good play for you.

But lets assume you're right and that Keepers of Knowledge, when awakened, treat ascended synths exactly the same way they treat all other empires. How do Watchful Regulators treat other empires again? Don't they force you to become a special kind of tributary that bans artificial intelligence? Wouldn't an artificial intelligence ban be at the very best neutering your population, and at the very worst the destruction of your synths by the fastest means available? Aren't both of those types of purges?

Watchful Regulators, in their current form, are looking to purge Ascended Synths, but that's ZERO difference right?

OK, you don´t know what the word "assuming" means.

Yeah, it was borderline before, but now you've opted to become completely unproductive. I would suggest you're not taking this seriously, but the uptick on typos and aggression coming from your post certainly indicates they were typed out with the intent of responding as quickly and forcefully as possible.

Are you honestly saying that you see no difference between "Not going out of their way to wage war" and "Receiving them with open arms"?

Seriously?

No, but I stopped taking you seriously and so I went for humorous exaggeration to keep things light and interesting.

Your position is

Huh, to be 100% honest here, I don´t think the Keepers of Knowledge should be as antagonistic towards as a Ascended Synth Empire as they are towards A.I research in general

My position is

I prefer my primary antagonist to be irrational and arrogant. It makes it funner to watch him fall.

And if you need a rationale, what you do as a race after ascension would look alot like the AI Rebellion crisis to an outside observer. Given that's the crisis they've been trying to prevent, I buy that they see you as THE THING THEY MUST STOP.

You believe the Keepers of Knowledge should pull a 90 degree turn and shift from openly hostile to indifferent regarding AI technology and Synthetic Life Forms. You think your position is based on facts, I'm sorry, FACTS, which are in actuality assumptions you've made and have been unable to support with even the most cursory explanation.

Where as my position is that the Keepers of Knowledge, having established themselves as your primary antagonists, should remain your primary antagonists. My position is based on personal preference, a basic understanding of game design and the knowledge that these are all abstractions wrapped around game mechanics that require Keepers of Knowledge to be aggressive even towards small, pacifistic nations that research Artificial Intelligence. So any definite answer regarding their motives and drives has to be applicable across the board.

It's why I'm winning and you're making yourself look foolish.

How many times Wiz and the other devs have stated that Banks´s features are NOT set in stone yet?

If I had any doubts that you have trouble handling the meaning of the word "fact", well, now I don´t.

So what you're saying is you're only wrong RIGHT NOW, but if they change their current plans, then suddenly you'd be right?

Nope, sorry, that's not how facts work. You're wrong right now, you don't become right retroactively if they change their plans. You can be right in the future if they change their plans, but you will have still been wrong first.

Oh, and for clarity: The essence of my argument is a request for a change/swap on the ideological opposition a Fallen empire has/can have towards a specific Ascension path, for the 2 reasons I said before.

Fortunately, such a poor game design choice is unlikely to be made, and so I'm comfortable knowing that not only are you wrong now, but believing that you will remain wrong until your point of view changes, if it ever does.