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Im not sure if im a big fan of Germany having captured units i know its realistic and all but they couldnt have been captured in numbers enough to warrant a deck slot (atleast in wargame terms) and kind of doesnt feel right i mean theres a huge variety in german vehicles in WW2 i kind of find it hard to beliave there would be a big enough gap in terms of tanks to warrant a captured Firefly worth putting ingame for sheer balance reasons. I imagine the Firefly is the best tank vs tank on Allies side giving it to the Axis just kind of feels wrong when they will have access to King tigers Tigers Panters and all sorts of Panzer 4s and some late Panzer 3s plus infinite Stug variants and Marders. Now if you captured one and use it in battle that would be an intersting feature for Germany as Allies didnt do that very often if at all.
 
Im not sure if im a big fan of Germany having captured units i know its realistic and all but they couldnt have been captured in numbers enough to warrant a deck slot (atleast in wargame terms) and kind of doesnt feel right i mean theres a huge variety in german vehicles in WW2 i kind of find it hard to beliave there would be a big enough gap in terms of tanks to warrant a captured Firefly worth putting ingame for sheer balance reasons. I imagine the Firefly is the best tank vs tank on Allies side giving it to the Axis just kind of feels wrong when they will have access to King tigers Tigers Panters and all sorts of Panzer 4s and some late Panzer 3s plus infinite Stug variants and Marders. Now if you captured one and use it in battle that would be an intersting feature for Germany as Allies didnt do that very often if at all.
I can agree on Fireflies. I would have to somewhat disagree with you in regards to, as previously stated, French tanks.

I really feel that captured French tanks would be ideal early-phase units for the German armored divisions, depending on how the phases end up working out. Since it is specifically said over and over that the early phase is for light tanks, infantry, and the like, French Hotchkiss tanks sporting relatively thick armor and 37-mm guns would fit right in.
 
To be fair, the term "SPW" may indicate something other than a StuG. Marders, perhaps? Halftrack-mounted antitank guns? Either way, eith the kind of equipment we're given the impression of being in the early game, a 17-pounder is sort of cosmic-levels of overkill.
AFAIK the term SPW can only refer to Schützenpanzerwagen i.e. the Sd.Kfz. 250 and 251 families of halftracks.
 
I doubt the captured, or Allied Firefly is going to be a phase A vehicle. I find it more than likely that the reviewer made a mistake, seeing as they also thought all artillery will be off-map which was debunked by MadMat.

Also, if you look at what the 21. Panzer Division (which, I imagine, is going to be the one with the Firefly as it has all sorts of captured equipment so it fits into the scheme) can bring to the table, you notice it has very little in the way of outstanding tanks. Most of their tanks are made up of either captured French vehicles or Pz. III's and IV's. Now, you can argue that they don't really need a Firefly to deal with anything the Allies can throw at them, but at the same time, a Firefly doesn't really imbalance them either (seeing as it has no better armor than a regular Sherman, but it has a better gun), so it's not a big deal.

If you argue for the aesthetics, then yes, it is a more than a little bit odd. I'm hoping their numbers and price will be kept in check to avoid a situation where half the German tanks force are made up of Shermans, fighting Shermans.
 
Im not sure if im a big fan of Germany having captured units i know its realistic and all but they couldnt have been captured in numbers enough to warrant a deck slot (atleast in wargame terms) and kind of doesnt feel right i mean theres a huge variety in german vehicles in WW2 i kind of find it hard to beliave there would be a big enough gap in terms of tanks to warrant a captured Firefly worth putting ingame for sheer balance reasons. I imagine the Firefly is the best tank vs tank on Allies side giving it to the Axis just kind of feels wrong when they will have access to King tigers Tigers Panters and all sorts of Panzer 4s and some late Panzer 3s plus infinite Stug variants and Marders. Now if you captured one and use it in battle that would be an intersting feature for Germany as Allies didnt do that very often if at all.

couldnt agree more.. if germany has a firefly thats just plain ol dumb imo, not a fan of the these anecdotal units like this. lol @ germans having more powerful shermans then the americans will! its like in wargame how everyone had good f16s EXCEPT the US. sure some shermans were captured but i still see this as immersion breaking shenanigans. cant wait for the Sherman FF swarm + king tiger german meta.:rolleyes:
 
Also, if you look at what the 21. Panzer Division (which, I imagine, is going to be the one with the Firefly as it has all sorts of captured equipment so it fits into the scheme) can bring to the table, you notice it has very little in the way of outstanding tanks.


Or they could just have this:

00110.jpg





As their phase A vehicle. UNIC halftrack with PaK 40. And not worry about trying to place and balance a tank that was used to snipe Panthers at a kilometer range.
 
To be fair, the term "SPW" may indicate something other than a StuG. Marders, perhaps? Halftrack-mounted antitank guns? Either way, eith the kind of equipment we're given the impression of being in the early game, a 17-pounder is sort of cosmic-levels of overkill.

Did the Germans use any halftrack mounted AT guns in 1944?
 
It was indicated here. I should have specified it in the OP:

https://www.pcgamesn.com/steel-divi...ormandy-44-units-phases-multiplayer-divisions

Alternatively, you can take control of the German 21st Panzer Division, one of Rommel’s divisions that spent the first two years of the war in Africa, and the only Panzer division to engage Allied forces on the first day of the battle. Like every division in Steel Division: Normandy 44, the 21st Panzer Division has an ace in the hole: a captured US Sherman Firefly tank. “As it is an armoured division,” says Le Dressay, “we’ve got a lot of slots in armoured and tank units. We’ve got a maximum of 36.” However, in the first phase of the battle however, we only have two slots for armoured units - this is the same phase where infantry-led divisions like the 101st excel - and Germany lack decent light tanks to use at this stage of the fight. Enter the captured US Sherman Firefly, which should provide the 21st with a helping hand during Phase A without wasting two valuable Armoured slots that could be essential later on.

Some of this sets off my amateur historian senses. There's a lot of suspect information here, including the 'U.S. Firefly' bit. That's just erroneous.
I didn't mean to doubt the facts (although Madmat said the "US firefly" wasn't their mistake it was the article writer's), I just think there's something off with having a medium tank that can punch through a Tiger at long range be a unit that is available in what is advertised as a mainly light tank and infantry phase of gameplay. Either the info is wrong or I've misunderstood the purpose of phases.
 
You can avoid that through economy and making recon/advance units legitimately worth the investment.

That is exactly what this phase system does, I don't see your argument. In the first phase tanks and SPGs will be few in number and expensive as compared to infantry and recon assets who would actually be at the head of any advance.

Having units be hardlocked at phases is just an arbitrary time-waster that artificially restricts the player, in the name of 'realism.' The kicker here, of course, is that it's not realistic in the slightest.

I'm sorry, but how are staged deployments not realistic? Have you any idea of how combat, particularity meeting engagements like we see in Wargame and SD, play out? No real military swarms armored columns down a highway to slam head-on into whatever the enemy might have with no preparation. Order of march and force concentration are priorities.

How they modeled it for SD follows realistic battle flow:

First your light infantry and cavalry recon elements establish where the enemy is coming from, who they are, and what the situation on the ground is.

Next your main battle formations begin to filter in and engage their opposite numbers on the enemy side, lines are drawn and the battle begins in earnest.

Finally, you commit your reserves, normally your best assets harbored to achieve the breakthrough and punch a hole in the line where you think the enemy is weakest. The other use of such reserves is to shore up your defenses where you think an enemy force may be making a breakthrough.

So the phase system is is not an artificial restriction, its a realistic representation of contemporary military thinking. You won't lead with your heavy hitters, you would save those for the knockout punch or to strengthen your defense.
 
Dont suppose you could be a champ and say a little bit more?
It's a complex issue due to the number of variants, and many units just not reporting when they received conversion kits when they got them. However, in one example, the Sd.Kfz 251/9 - which was armed with the 7.5-cm KwK 37 - was in use since 1942 and continued use until the end of the war. Most sources state that conversion kits were issued to 'upgrade' them to the /22 configuration, armed with the KwK 40, beginning in December of 1944.

That is exactly what this phase system does, I don't see your argument. In the first phase tanks and SPGs will be few in number and expensive as compared to infantry and recon assets who would actually be at the head of any advance.
You can accomplish the same thing with a well-made and balanced economy without hard-locking units in arbitrary phases. The first is a 'soft' restriction that affords players the opportunity to flex their strategies. The later is a 'hard' restriction that just shuts player agency down.

I'm sorry, but how are staged deployments not realistic? Have you any idea of how combat, particularity meeting engagements like we see in Wargame and SD, play out? No real military swarms armored columns down a highway to slam head-on into whatever the enemy might have with no preparation. Order of march and force concentration are priorities.
I'm getting tired of seeing this argument, frankly. It's always preceded with a highly disrespectful comment and tone.

No, advance/reconnaissance forces didn't always clash first-thing in any given battle. Combat in the modern age, much less WWII, was not quite so symmetrical. The Second World War was not tanks and infantry standing in box formation, like the armies of antiquity, and preceding the fight with a bout of the skirmishers exchanging fire.

How they modeled it for SD follows realistic battle flow:

First your light infantry and cavalry recon elements establish where the enemy is coming from, who they are, and what the situation on the ground is.

Next your main battle formations begin to filter in and engage their opposite numbers on the enemy side, lines are drawn and the battle begins in earnest.

Finally, you commit your reserves, normally your best assets harbored to achieve the breakthrough and punch a hole in the line where you think the enemy is weakest. The other use of such reserves is to shore up your defenses where you think an enemy force may be making a breakthrough.
Battle of Arracourt. No German reconnaissance units came in contact with American reconnaissance units before the battle was joined. Now, in this case, it was partially because the Panzer-brigades did not have organic recon units. But that's the point; they don't come into play all the time. It's almost as if, in the minds of some people, 'surprise' doesn't exist. Initiative doesn't, either, I suppose.

As far as 'reserves' being 'veterans' or 'heavy hitters;' once again, you're thinking that modern armies circa 1944 were Roman legions, where the Triarii were typically held in the rear line to serve as the final wave of the battle. In fact, however, period TO&E doesn't agree with you. The late-type American Armored Division TO&E, for example, has its batallions split up into three 'Combat Commands.' A, B, and R. 'A' and 'B' were the active maneuver elements, and Combat Command 'R' was typically reserved for units awaiting reinforcement or otherwise being taken off the immediate divisional front for one reason or another. Now, the world isn't black and white, and they could be called into action as an element in their own right. But to say that the 'reserves' of a unit are the 'elite, heavy hitters' is absurd.

If we're to see another example; U.S. Tank Destroyer Battalions. These units were envisioned as a unit to be kept in reserve, to be massed and ride in like the glorious cavalry of old to counter a tank attack. Were they ever actually used this way? No. They were most often assigned to Infantry units to provide them with direct support from their motorized guns, ala German StuGs; which are another example of this whole 'phase' thing being nonsense in its own right.

Hard-locking equipment according to a time table, as if everyone agreed to play by the same rules as far as force deployment, isn't realistic. It's silly, and the only arguments I've heard in support of the idea that it is realistic, are done so from people who say "Oh, you just don't know how combat was!" while, ironically, showing off that they, in fact, have no clue themselves.

I suppose the Roman maniple must have worked exceedingly well, if they were still using it in 1944!
 
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You can accomplish the same thing with a well-made and balanced economy without hard-locking units in arbitrary phases. The first is a 'soft' restriction that affords players the opportunity to flex their strategies. The later is a 'hard' restriction that just shuts player agency down.

Except the problem is that nobody actually flexes strategy, it filters down to a set deployment scheme and a rush for the key points of the map.

I'm getting tired of seeing this argument, frankly. It's always preceded with a highly disrespectful comment and tone.

No, advance/reconnaissance forces didn't always clash first-thing in any given battle. Combat in the modern age, much less WWII, was not quite so symmetrical. The Second World War was not tanks and infantry standing in box formation, like the armies of antiquity, and preceding the fight with a bout of the skirmishers exchanging fire.

I must have missed the part where I compared this game to the maneuvers of a Roman legion or another antiquity type formation. The Second World War was in fact far more attacks on objectives, with a general understanding of enemy positions and strengths. Sadly we won't see that sort of fight ingame like we didn't see it in Wargame, we're not launching an assault on Cherbourg, we're not attempting to shatter British lines and relieve Caen, we're only going see meeting engagements. That is units coming out of march and fighting each other with units coming to the fight as they arrive. Frankly I think that Eugen has come up with the best solution to take that into account without using RNG to pick random units from your deck and deploying them automatically.

There's a difference between a realistic real time tactics game and a WWII simulator. No, reconnaissance elements did not always meet first and foremost but in the type of fight that Eugen is setting up that would be the most likely case. Two (or more) divisions moving into an unknown and unoccupied zone would not just throw troops in there like the spam we see so often in Wargame. Why throw a tank company at a village in the distance if you don't even know what's in it or if it's even worth the gas to get there?
 
If you don't want heavy tank spam in the beginning of the game (not that it was really possible in Wargame, but I digress) then you can do so through a well-formulated economy combined with making recon units worth the investment, which I feel Wargame did fairly well.

As far as this silly stigma against 'rushing to objectives;' in the very same meeting engagements you're describing, the objective is nearly always to rush as quickly as you can to secure advantageous positions.
 
How can you know where the advantageous positions are unless you know what the lay of the land looks like? Where the enemy is coming from? How far away the enemy is? What might be a great linchpin for a defensive line is useless if your advance already bypasses it by several miles before you encounter the enemy. We, as players, have great eye-in-the-sky perspectives but that doesn't mean that you can realistically claim to that knowledge if you want your game to feel authentic.
 
By the Second World War, officers had access to advanced tools known as 'maps.' These 'maps,' as they were called, cataloged the lay of the land in an operational area. They were created by highly skilled artisans called 'cartographers.' These men, these arcane masters, produced maps of such detail that they could even grant commanders with topographical details including elevation of various land features.
 
For someone complaining about disrespectful tones, you sure don't mind being a ass yourself.

However, thanks for the info. I had no idea that officers in WWII had access to maps showing real-time locations of friendly and enemy forces as well as exact and colorful displays of frontline positions for both sides.
 
Your original statement was that you could not know what an advantageous position was. Maps existed, as do hills overlooking objectives. As do radios, which were very well proliferated in various armies during the Second World War. Speaking of radios, there were also trained reconnaissance personnel, as well. Did you know that reconnaissance units didn't always combat other reconnaissance units, though? Some times, they didn't run into enemy reconnisance units at all. Some times, they would find the main body of enemy troop movements, and using their radios, they would report the position of the enemy. Aerial reconnisance was also a thing that was used quite a bit during the Second World War, as well.

Joking aside, saying that there's no way to identify an advantageous position without 20th century velites skirmishing with one another is silly. These two issues are completely disconnected, and the fact remains that when a meeting engagement did happen, armies naturally raced for the high ground and any position of assumed advantage they could find. In fact, this initiative often determined the winner. So, rushing forces to key locations on the map isn't a bad thing. That's just how modern armies work.

Phases, however? That's not how armies work. That's just an arbitrary game mechanic. It's also not the topic of the thread.

I would also thank you to refrain from name-calling. If your argument can carry itself on its own, then let it.
 
It's a complex issue due to the number of variants, and many units just not reporting when they received conversion kits when they got them. However, in one example, the Sd.Kfz 251/9 - which was armed with the 7.5-cm KwK 37 - was in use since 1942 and continued use until the end of the war. Most sources state that conversion kits were issued to 'upgrade' them to the /22 configuration, armed with the KwK 40, beginning in December of 1944.

Kinda sounds like a poor man's stug. I dont see why it would need to be on the battlefield a phase before the medium tanks, you'd want it to be fighting tanks.