Can you post a screenshot pls? So I can figure out what it might be.
My code isn't very dependent on Plus, so that's unlikely - but you never know.
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I'll try to see if I can get one, but I don't know how much help it would be. It's just the red strike through you use for when a resource is unavailable, except for all possible options.
Ok, so I did some more testing. The refined goods event does work, but if you are playing a nomad, it seems to be more restrictive than I remember it being.
Ah well, that could be WAD then.
Most refined and finalized tradegoods have rather strict requirements on holdings - most tradegoods require ANY, and some even FEUDAL (city, temple, castle) holdings in the province to be producible. In general, reading the tooltip when you hover over the option should give you the reasons.
So you might want to not raze each and every tribal holding you conquer
Fun fact: I decided this after doing some research (reading books) on the Nomads. Historically, there were factions within these realms that favored razing everything to the ground, but the brighter rulers realized they needed the subjugated people for the resource they produced, since cows and horses give you neither metal for swords nor grain to improve your diet.
It was updated only for the BETA4, but I just tested it with V4.06 and it sadly produces severe problems with resource distribution - but only if you play without India.
A lot of (random) provinces will not get any resource assigned on startup, which pretty much breaks the mod. And quite frankly, I have no idea why that is happening.
It might even have been there before, but since I did not test a lot without India I might have overlooked it.
Anyway, so you can use the mod with current (V4.06) Ck2+ WITH India enabled, but not without it!
You also might want to add
Code:
supported_checksums = { QGHR }I will properly update the mod and hopefully fix the issue much later, because my time is short atm - so if your PC can't handle India, you currently should not use this submod.
It was updated only for the BETA4, but I just tested it with V4.06 and it sadly produces severe problems with resource distribution - but only if you play without India.
A lot of (random) provinces will not get any resource assigned on startup, which pretty much breaks the mod. And quite frankly, I have no idea why that is happening.
It might even have been there before, but since I did not test a lot without India I might have overlooked it.
Try specifically excluding Indian provinces (using regions etc) in a limit for that event, and see if that makes a difference. I have a feeling that may be an indirect result of how those provinces are disabled
Ah, thx.
Yeah I was really getting confused since it was totally random. I will try that - would that mean I should also exclude Indian regions, or only provinces?
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A lot of these production decisions don't really make sense.
Like, apiculture produces either wax or honey?
Honeycomb contains both.
Animal husbandry produces either meat or fat?
Cows contain both.
I get that it's about balance, but it's a little weird.
Also, I'd hope it's eventually possible to respec provinces if your production is all kinds of fucked.
Like, apiculture produces either wax or honey?
Honeycomb contains both.
Animal husbandry produces either meat or fat?
Cows contain both.
I get that it's about balance, but it's a little weird.
Also, I'd hope it's eventually possible to respec provinces if your production is all kinds of fucked.
I think it represents more of a focus; are the local cattle breeds for milking or for slaughter? Is the infrastructure in place for large scale tanning or is the preparation of meat or tallow the main industry?
That said, it's be nice if you could somehow link different industries relating to the same sources for bonuses (e.g. cattle into meat and cattle into leather in the same province gives more profit than the sum of the two individual bonuses, likewise wool into cloth into clothes gives more bonuses for cloth and clothes than the individual industries alone) to represent the bonuses of reduced infrastructure cost for keeping the whole production chain local.
Yeah, I understand what you mean. And indeed, I have pondered about this a lot myself.
The problem really is more on the technical side here, as there is a great disparity between the different animals.
In the early planning stages of the mod, animals would each produce two animalproducts, which made more sense for Apiculture especially, as you pointed out.
However, there were a few problems with it because
a) it bloated the province interface even more, especially with two animals in a province - and while you might be using ARKOpack to mitigate this issue, I can tell you my plans require a LOT more province modifiers for various other things in the future (did anyone of you ever open up my modifier_icons.dds file? )
b) it brought problems with Sericulture - because Sericulture can only produce one thing, it would use only one animalproduct slot. And for the technical framework, it is very important to me that I can assume uniformity between the various tradegoods lest things get much more difficult.
c) it was still only a compromise - "Flock" (Sheep) for example can produce RawMeat/AnimalFat/Milk/Wool/Hide, and by only producing 2 out of them it would still be strange - why can't I eat the sheep if they give me wool and milk? And if I would allow an infinite number, I would just aggravate a) and b).
So in the end, I decided it was to be capped at 1 animalproduct for mainly technical reasons.)b) it brought problems with Sericulture - because Sericulture can only produce one thing, it would use only one animalproduct slot. And for the technical framework, it is very important to me that I can assume uniformity between the various tradegoods lest things get much more difficult.
c) it was still only a compromise - "Flock" (Sheep) for example can produce RawMeat/AnimalFat/Milk/Wool/Hide, and by only producing 2 out of them it would still be strange - why can't I eat the sheep if they give me wool and milk? And if I would allow an infinite number, I would just aggravate a) and b).
And this is the explanation in lore ^^
Seriously, this is a very good explanation - otherwise you would also have to find it weird that some provinces do not produce grain at all, even thought that was such a staple food it was basically produced throughout the entire world, and in almost every province.
The Tradegoods in this mod should only represent those goods that were produced in quantities greater than the local need for subsistence.
So if you want, you can picture the local population eats up all the honey, and thus can only export the wax
That is an interesting idea, however, I am not sure how to represent that since province modifiers are not very dynamic.
Basically, I am building a trade framework onto something that was not really designed for it, and it's not easy to dynamically account for anything like that except with additional events and province modifiers, which in total would lead to the problem I mentioned above as a).
Furthermore, I am not entirely sure it would mirror historical reality. Let's take your example and look at the (quite famous) English wool trade:
Wool from sheep in England was exported to continental Europe, a trade so important because it generated revenue for the English king, and so lucrative that the right to collect the tariffs on wool was given by the king to moneylenders as a payment of his debts.
The wool could then have been imported into Flanders, where it was spun to great quality cloth that was sought-after in all of Europe - which in turn made the entire region insanely rich.
However, that cloth would not necessarily already be tailored into clothing - maybe it was imported to say, Paris, where the local tailors produced a pretty clothing after the latest fashion there.
All in all, the products have been traded over large distances, but it generated wealth for many participants along the way, because the final product is much more valuable than a rough wool cloth tailored directly in England. It's almost like "globalization" (which is under a lot of fire in recent years) already existed in the Middle Ages ^^
Now, I am aware that this does not work for everything - e.g. it is nonsense to transport sheep from England to Venice to have them slaughtered there, and the raw meat to Lübeck to have it salted. But to avoid such silliness, the tradegoods have traderanges which restrict the logical distance they should be traded.
TL;DR probably not going to happen, sry ^^
Do you suppose it'll ever be possible to respec the production of something, though?
Say, if the continental French and Italians have made wax and other stuff in all the apiculture provinces, can viking invaders eventually switch them over to making honey for mead?
Say, if the continental French and Italians have made wax and other stuff in all the apiculture provinces, can viking invaders eventually switch them over to making honey for mead?
Two questions:
* What does "science" and "engineering" actually look at? The tech levels? The development of various holdings? Sometimes it seems inconsistent, so it would be nicer if it were clearer what this meant.
* Is it possible to increase the number of natural resources in a province?
* What does "science" and "engineering" actually look at? The tech levels? The development of various holdings? Sometimes it seems inconsistent, so it would be nicer if it were clearer what this meant.
* Is it possible to increase the number of natural resources in a province?
A good suggestion, I shall see to it.
It's tech levels. But yeah... that's kinda a problem right now ^^
Some stuff in the mod is still "for the future", so to say. I am even referencing and checking for things in the code which currently don't yet exist, but that simply does no show up in the game yet. I think I am sometimes planning a bit too far ahead, wanting to do all kinds of things, but my time is short, so short...
"Scientific" is the planned renaming of the current "Tolerance" tech, once I get to the point where I overhaul technology. "Engineering", similarly, is the planned renaming of "Construction".
The levels are 2, 4 or 6, for Low, Medium or High, respectively - though some lucky cultures don't have to have certain tech levels, e.g. Indians can make Silk from the start.
Since I was a bit optimistic when I did the localization for the modifiers, I already named the requirements to their supposed future names.
For now, I'm afraid you'll have to live with it, or you can of course change the localization yourself.
Natural Resources are capped at 1, 2 or 3 per province, depending primarily on the terrain. All provinces normally get 2 resources, except for arctic, which only gets one, and desert, which only gets one unless it is bordering a major river or lake. A volcano does open up an additional third slot which can only ever be of plant type, provided you have volcanoes enabled.
So no, there is no way to have more than that amount of resources in a province, by design - the "framework" in the background can only handle this much.
Though my creativity is running wild again, so no promises you'll get what you want, but things might change again ^^
Ah that makes sense.
(Never underestimate the value in letting the player see why something happens
)
Yeah. That's why I made these tooltips in the first place - it was tedious as hell, because vanilla can just automatically colour their boni green, mali red etc. I had to literally type everything myself there, as the code that actually checks for these conditions is totally elsewhere. Then the same thing again for the event tooltips, individually this time and not bundled together as with province modifiers.Ah that makes sense.
(Never underestimate the value in letting the player see why something happens
The only thing that was worse was the localization for the "List Tradegoods" event - look at the code if you want, these tooltips were just insanely long. I wouldn't have done it if I didn't need it for testing/debugging...
So don't blame the mod for not being user friendly enough, I really tried
CTD will be undergoing a major rework and not be updated in a while.
In the meantime, the problem with India has eluded its detection, which leads me to the conclusion that it might be more deeply rooted than previously thought - Might have something to do with my custom triggers, which is no quick fix.
Since I won't bother repairing something that will be redone anyway, the submod will stay compatible only in conjunction with the India module for the time being.
The latest feedback has made me ponder whether some things could be improved on, and I have come to the conclusion that they could. The first iteration of this mod was, after all, also a test for me to "teach" me modding techniques, since I only ever adapted other people's stuff before. The release of a working version has assured me that I can do things, and hopefully now that I know how to do things, I can focus on making them better.
Just to give you a quick idea what I am aiming for:
Provinces will all have 3 Base Resources. Desert and Arctic will have only 2.
Volcanoes will no longer offer an additional slot, but still give the %-bonus to tax income.
Natural Barriers will still block one slot, but with the additional slot they will have less of an impact.
In addition, both Barrier types will "lock" one remaining resource slot to a specific resource. For "Deep Woods" this is "Wood" (quite logical, it was kinda strange to have woods but no wood before), and for "Swamps" this will be the new "Peat" resource, which frankly will act a lot like Wood really. But flavor.
The overall amount of resources will be greatly increased (I'm maybe at +30% more already ^^), with the third slot hopefully allowing about the same coverage as currently, only with more options for the player. Though a fair warning: Production chains could also become more complex.
Animals will still be restricted to only one product, for balance reasons, and for visibility since otherwise this could mean up to (3x3=) 9 modifiers per province, which is too much.
Provinces with a lot of holdings (more than 3-4 maybe, not yet decided) will gain access to a second "Refined" production slot, allowing provinces of great economic importance (e.g. Constantinople) to produce more stuff.
"Finalized" products will still be restricted to one slot per province, emphasizing the importance of choosing the right specialization.
The planned trade route extension will be included, to better integrate some regions into the trade network.
I'm not sure yet, but the event prompts to produce stuff will get changed somehow.
Some other stuff I don't know yet.
What can you do?
- Request tradegoods that you really want to see (for example there will now be Cinnabar, from which you can extract Mercury). Now I am adding them, but things will likely not get redone a third time.
- Suggest any other major changes.
- Suggest a better name to go with the acronym.
- Wait. Wait. Wait.
Luckily most people play with India anyways, based on recent stats released by PDS
Yup, right I forgot you did get that info ^^
Also, a short update:
I think I would allow a second "refined" good for provinces with 3+ holdings, and additionally a second "finalized" good for provinces with 6+ holdings. So the really big provinces (Constantinople etc.) can have some major industry diversification going, while the rest still has to specialize.
I'm still pondering just how detailed the tradegoods should be this time around. For example, I think I will probably not represent the difference between "tanning" and "tawing", even though I did read some interesting things about that lately. My megalomaniac approach is to represent the Medieval economy as truthfully as possible within this game, so either this is going to be great or overly convoluted and complicated
I spend quite some time reading on the books my University has on Medieval Economy, and luckily I also managed to get into the course about the "Late Medieval Economy of the Cities". Hopefully I'll learn something that I can put to use here...
Oh, and because this is a submod and does not get as much attention as it would on the main forums, and also because I'm kinda curious what you as the main mod dev team think, I invite you people like vukica and zeress to also give your opinion on this submod's design - if you so wish. Even if you don't want to use it, and even if you haven't used it yet, just based on the general design I presented in this thread.
Because the feedback I got until now - for which I am grateful - has focused mainly on matters of convenience, information-feedback to users and balance.
But I'm also quite interested in whether the general design and implementation (and, less important, the coding) I did is good, or if I should have done something different. I'm only asking you because you guys have written new gameplay elements in the past, and thus probably naturally have clearer ideas about how and why things should be done than the average mod user.
Only if you want, of course, please don't feel compelled. I'm just politely asking
My opinion would be horribly uninformed and superficial at best; when I do spend time doing anything with CK2 it's exclusively Plus related, in one way or another. Not due to a lack of interest but just due to a lack of time for much anything else.
With that caveat out of the way; for me personally it'd be far too micro intensive and distracts from the general things I personally look for in CK2 when compared to say EU4. Namely the dynastic aspects of the game. Clearly a lot of work and thought went into the mod but it wouldn't be for me. Perhaps if it more relevantly tied into dynastic aspects, like say plots to screw over other production avenues. arson, thievery etc. But for me personally I don't care for the actual means of production to be that detailed, so to say.
Again though, this is my horribly uninformed opinion based purely on a superficial glance with no actual experience using the mod, so take it with a grain of salt
EDIT: I think what's really important is to remember why you are modding/developing etc in the first place. Are you doing it for yourself? Doing it to make other people happy? A combination of those? Something else entirely?
Whatever it is you should always strive to follow what was in your heart to begin with.
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