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CK2 Dev Diary #50: A Reason for War

Greetings!

The weather is slowly recovering from the chaotic mixture of snow/rain/hail/sun that has plagued the Swedish April and work is starting on the next, yet undisclosed, expansion! The next expansion is going to have a specific theme which most features will be focused around (we can unfortunately not go into any detail in this DD), though we also want to add some features that can be of use regardless of who or where you choose to play. One of these is planned to be a ‘Casus Belli Expansion’, where we want to add new and oft-requested CBs to the game. The Focus is going to be on CBs that enhance the early and late game (as well as a few more roleplay-focused CBs). While this is by no means a final list, it’s what we’ve made so far:


Forced Vassalization
This is a CB that can be used against neighboring realms to force them to become your vassal. To avoid making it too powerful it’s quite heavily limited, only realms that are of a lower tier, under 30 realm size and where the ruler is of either your culture group or religion are valid targets. It also has a direct cost (prestige). For example; this can allow England to, with time, extend ‘protection’ to the smaller Welsh and Irish realms.


De Jure Duchy Claim
This CB was added to try to avoid situations where massive realms would fight over one single county, essentially destroying their armies for near no gain. Players often think these types of wars aren’t worth fighting, and do not usually declare them themselves - instead they turn to Holy Wars or invite duchy claimants to expand in a more meaningful way. This CB provides interesting opportunity for conquest at the point where you form your first Kingdom or Empire. Any vassals present in conquered lands are preserved, and this CB also comes with a prestige cost.


Ducal County Conquest
At the very start of a game you might be stuck waiting for fabricated claims a very, very long time if you’re unlucky. This CB is available to Count and Duke tier characters, and allows you to go to war over any County that are part of a Duchy you hold land in, as long as the Duchy has no holder. The CB has a cost of prestige and gold, making it similar to a fabricated claim (as that’s essentially what it is). As an example, this gives count-tier characters in Ireland and the HRE an alternate way to claim a Duke-tier title, presuming that you can save up enough prestige and money.


Great Conquest
Unless you are playing as a Muslim, Nomad or Tribal-cultured ruler (who have access to invasions) you have no real way to expand in a meaningful way when you are playing as the ruler of a very large realm. While we still want expansion to be difficult, we also want to give players more static opportunities to expand. This CB is available to very powerful realms (at least 200 realm size) and can be used to claim an entire Kingdom from another character. Though the catch is that you have to fight someone that is as strong or stronger than you are, and using the CB itself costs a massive amount of prestige and piety.


Free Hostages
A long-requested CB, this allows you to go to war against a character in order to free any kidnapped concubines or wives, and release certain characters from prison (i.e. friends and dynastants). Rescued characters will, most often, be moved back to your court. It will also take hostages in turn, imprisoning a random close member of the target’s family!

It’s currently not possible to attack anyone who holds a close dynastic member in their prison (i.e. your child), is this something you’d like to see changed specifically for use with this CB? Otherwise it'll be of use primarily for freeing concubines (something that has been requested for a long time!).


Note that these CBs are by no means finished, and are currently being tested internally. Feel free to comment and feedback on them though, and also feel free to tell us what CBs you would like to see added!
 
I personally wouldn't like this, instead I would like a direct option to attempt to free them from captivity that works similarly to a plot in that you fire it when you feel the time is right. Success would be determined by things like your intrigue and your spymasters intrigue combined compared to the person holding your dynasty member prisoner and their spymaster combined, if you have a person in their court who really likes you (Like a council member or a commander perhaps? Or maybe even the targets wife/husband/child) or maybe one of their rivals or an unruly vassal from their realm for you to enlist and help. If you get caught the target has a choice to either punish (Kill/Injure/Maim/Disfigure) your dynasty member (Weighted heavily if the AI character is cruel), leave them to rot or perhaps even free them for as to not deal with further attempts at a break out (Weighted heavily if the AI character is kind/depressed).
You see I've wanted the rescue prisoner option for a long time too, but that's no reason not to add the option to go to war over it as well. More options facilitate more kinds of characters. Sometimes, I need to secretly remove a person from a foreign jail cell. Other times I need to need to burn a nation to the ground in revenge for a ruler having the audacity to take one of my own captive.

I also wish I didn't have to be a Satanist to have people kidnapped. To be honest that's usually my primary motivation for becoming a Satanist.
 
I personally wouldn't like this, instead I would like a direct option to attempt to free them from captivity that works similarly to a plot in that you fire it when you feel the time is right. Success would be determined by things like your intrigue and your spymasters intrigue combined compared to the person holding your dynasty member prisoner and their spymaster combined, if you have a person in their court who really likes you (Like a council member or a commander perhaps? Or maybe even the targets wife/husband/child) or maybe one of their rivals or an unruly vassal from their realm for you to enlist and help.
You know exactly what you described is currently in the game? It was added with the Way of Life DLC (why does none seem to know this).
CKii Wiki said:
Characters with the Intrigue focus get +3 intrigue skill. They can spy on characters to discover plots, get other imprisonment reasons, or slander people. They can also attempt to free certain prisoners and concubines from captivity.
 
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Prestige is mana now? If you made wars expensive and less desirable you wouldn't need mana-mechanics.
Honestly this. While I like limiting factors leader or country mana is pretty stupid. I think the best solution for this would be to increase maintenance costs for everything and decrease upfront costs to mercenaries (and perhaps also having mercs let you run into the red a bit). As it is now I never use mercs for long periods of time since their upfront costs are too high or they are led by a nomad and have like 50 dudes, best I ever do is hire a unit for a quick war and waste them on assaults since I don't value them.

I think the most elegant solution however would be to include levy size in depopulation. Essentially if your entire levy for a province is wiped out that alone will give that province a level of depopulation even if the enemy never set foot in it. Wars become a lot more costly since even if you win without the enemy setting foot on your territory heavy losses could still cripple your economy. It also could increase the frequency of non-muslim AI empires crumbling due to snowballing. Emperor loses his entire army in a war and his economy is crippled for a decade, enemy AI and rebels take advantage of this and attack, weakening the empire further causing more to attack. Could lead to the Eastern Roman Empire weakening more often (I have never seen the Eastern Roman Empire have a net loss of territory before the 1250s as starting dates let alone actually collapse) and make hordes more threatening since even if the player survives the war his army and economy could be crippled for decades.
 
I have never seen the Eastern Roman Empire have a net loss of territory before the 1250s as starting dates let alone actually collapse.
Naturally, since the reasons for their collapse (rivalries for the throne, political rivalries for various other interests, importance of the capital etc) are hardly modeled by the game. Up until the fall of Asia Minor the empire enjoyed tremendous staying power and strategic depth. The fall of Asia Minor was hardly caused by external forces anyway, Manzikert notwithstanding. It was the aforementioned political rivalries that were allowed to get out hand by weak and ineffective rulers occupying the throne for nearly a century that led to the gradual erosion of imperial power and the eventual collapse of that front.

That said I do agree that it is simply not costly enough to wage war. And I don't mean money, like you, I mean people. Get your entire levy obliterated again and again and in a couple of months you are back to full strength. That is just not good enough. Maybe a manpower resource a la EU4 is needed. While there is men, replenishment is fast, once you are out, replenishment would take a long long time.
 
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Naturally, since the reasons for their collapse (rivalries for the throne, political rivalries for various other interests, importance of the capital etc) are hardly modeled by the game. Up until the fall of Asia Minor the empire enjoyed tremendous staying power and strategic depth. The fall of Asia Minor was hardly caused by external forces anyway, Manzikert notwithstanding. It was the aforementioned political rivalries that were allowed to get out hand by weak and ineffective rulers occupying the throne for nearly a century that led to the gradual erosion of imperial power and the eventual collapse of that front.

That said I do agree that it is simply not costly enough to wage war. And I don't mean money, like you, I mean people. Get your entire levy obliterated again and again and in a couple of months you are back to full strength. That is just not good enough. Maybe a manpower resource a la EU4 is needed. While there is men, replenishment is fast, once you are out, replenishment would take a long long time.

I agree with this, but then you need (allot) more stuff to do within your own kingdom. The game shouldn't be like; max speed unitl next war, speed 1 (win war and gone is your manpower), back too max speed again until your manpower is back.
 
I like the idea of new CBs, I would love to see a stop raiding CB, something aroudn the lines, you raid me, I attack you and take your heir as hostage, to stop you for raiding me. not being able to punish raiding attacks seems silly.

and I would love to be able to depopulate/raze counties. reduce national income and levies for X years to depopulate/raze a foreign recently annexed county. give medium opinon penalties with your own religion/culture and a masive one to the target culture/religion.
 
You know exactly what you described is currently in the game? It was added with the Way of Life DLC (why does none seem to know this).
I'm aware that this exsists but I'd like a more refined system like I explained witb consequences and such that feels more intiguey and not CB where any Medievil King would've just executed the captive prisoner as soon as you use it.
 
Another CB change/fix that would be nice would be if crusades were allowed to ignore the "target has six counties in the kingdom" rule for holy sites, or at least for the most important holy site. For example, if Rome falls, the Catholics should probably try to retake that at once even if it is the only county in Italy that has fallen (or the only county that has fallen to that particular religious enemy) instead of sending the crusaders somewhere else, and the same goes for Muslims and Mecca, Jews and Jerusalem, etc.
 
I would love a CB that allows me to press all of the claims both I and my vassals have against another realm. It's similar to the issue for Ducal claims - I've got a ton of minor claims against, say, the Byzantines, spread across Italy and the Caucuses. Right now, I'd have to go to war one at a time over decades to press all those claims. Why not one war to press them all? That seems more realistic.
 
The new CBs aim specifically to not de-emphasize the importance of marriages & claims. What they do aim for is to reduce the frustration when lady fortune seems to have abandoned you - it provides you with more options and more paths to take, though these alternate paths will be limited heavily by costs and specific requirements.

Might I say they do sound like they succeed in not de-emphasizing the importance of marriage & claims game.

The marriage and claim game is actually one of my favorite parts of this game. I love the game of lining up people and marriages inviting people to court through means trying to line it up.

And really none of these new CBs devalues this part of the game.

Just a few more options at various levels with added cost.
 
Hmm... One casus belli that could be interesting from a Roleplay perspective is Vengeance. Say if a close friend or relative was unjustly murdered by someone outside your realm, you could maybe first be able to demand that they are handed over, if it's denied you declare war. Upon victory you imprison the murderer to do with as you wish. In essence it's like the revolts that happen when you fail to arrest a vassal

This is absolutely something I would love to see. As it stands, when someone plots to and successfully kills, e.g., your son, there's oftentimes absolutely nothing you can do about it. Maybe you can counterplot, but oftentimes the offender is in a distant realm with a small group of potential plotters, so it's not possible to get it to go anywhere. That leaves you as, say, the Emperor of Britannia with 15k soldiers at your command, staring across the Channel at the Count of Normandie who just had your heir murdered with absolutely nothing you can do about it.

Being able to declare a war of vengeance, where on victory you imprison the leader of the plot with no other territorial or monetary gains, would be a neat addition.
 
This is absolutely something I would love to see. As it stands, when someone plots to and successfully kills, e.g., your son, there's oftentimes absolutely nothing you can do about it. Maybe you can counterplot, but oftentimes the offender is in a distant realm with a small group of potential plotters, so it's not possible to get it to go anywhere. That leaves you as, say, the Emperor of Britannia with 15k soldiers at your command, staring across the Channel at the Count of Normandie who just had your heir murdered with absolutely nothing you can do about it.

Being able to declare a war of vengeance, where on victory you imprison the leader of the plot with no other territorial or monetary gains, would be a neat addition.

Vangeance CB for murders should let you kill your target, without tyranny. It should give you a modifier which makes weaker people than you that aren't brave, or craven people, much less likely to plot against you or your close family.
 
Vangeance CB for murders should let you kill your target, without tyranny. It should give you a modifier which makes weaker people than you that aren't brave, or craven people, much less likely to plot against you or your close family.
The game really should have some sort of general opposite to tyranny, a Madman factor if you will. Torturing and executing traitors, always imprisoning people you have the right to, eliminating rivals publicly (executing, dueling, banishing, or castrating), and driving out opposing claimants. Combining this with the ability to declare rivals (maybe limit the number of rivals you can declare) I feel like it would make the political game more in depth.

Ideally Madman wouldn't be the opposite of tyranny, actions could give you both (eg. executing your rival who never committed any crime) and characters consider both differently. Brave characters mostly ignore madman, craven view it much more strongly, while just characters hate tyranny more and arbitrary characters don't care. So if you are acting like Caligula an arbitrary craven character will probably just keep his head low and hope for the best, a just and brave character will attempt to overthrow or assassinate you.
 
The game really should have some sort of general opposite to tyranny, a Madman factor if you will. Torturing and executing traitors, always imprisoning people you have the right to, eliminating rivals publicly (executing, dueling, banishing, or castrating), and driving out opposing claimants. Combining this with the ability to declare rivals (maybe limit the number of rivals you can declare) I feel like it would make the political game more in depth.

Ideally Madman wouldn't be the opposite of tyranny, actions could give you both (eg. executing your rival who never committed any crime) and characters consider both differently. Brave characters mostly ignore madman, craven view it much more strongly, while just characters hate tyranny more and arbitrary characters don't care. So if you are acting like Caligula an arbitrary craven character will probably just keep his head low and hope for the best, a just and brave character will attempt to overthrow or assassinate you.

What I was thinking was more along the lines of "Harsh Justice" - No unwarranted actions, but instead following up every crime with swift retribution. I.E., assassinate the heir, and you'll get taken out yourself. Be a good vassal and obey the rules, nothing to fear.
 
What I was thinking was more along the lines of "Harsh Justice" - No unwarranted actions, but instead following up every crime with swift retribution. I.E., assassinate the heir, and you'll get taken out yourself. Be a good vassal and obey the rules, nothing to fear.
Not disagreeing with you, just saying that its stupid when the past three attempts to overthrow a king failed and those involved were tortured to death and yet another revolt comes the following year. Also I really wish you could execute traitors without incurring tyranny. A man leads a revolt so his duchy can gain independence but I can't execute him without being a tyrant. Is there any historical precedence to rebels being so protected by the law?
 
I agree with this, but then you need (allot) more stuff to do within your own kingdom. The game shouldn't be like; max speed unitl next war, speed 1 (win war and gone is your manpower), back too max speed again until your manpower is back.
At the very least, CK2 isn't as bad as EU4 in that regard during peace times. Once you get a few vassals, there's a lot of characters you can be dealing with and managing while you wait for your manpower to recover. Working on splitting up your vassals is a good example.
 
The game really should have some sort of general opposite to tyranny, a Madman factor if you will. Torturing and executing traitors, always imprisoning people you have the right to, eliminating rivals publicly (executing, dueling, banishing, or castrating), and driving out opposing claimants. Combining this with the ability to declare rivals (maybe limit the number of rivals you can declare) I feel like it would make the political game more in depth.

Ideally Madman wouldn't be the opposite of tyranny, actions could give you both (eg. executing your rival who never committed any crime) and characters consider both differently. Brave characters mostly ignore madman, craven view it much more strongly, while just characters hate tyranny more and arbitrary characters don't care. So if you are acting like Caligula an arbitrary craven character will probably just keep his head low and hope for the best, a just and brave character will attempt to overthrow or assassinate you.
I don't think I need more reasons to engage in the wholesale slaughter of my enemies. As it stands, those characters that don't learn their lessons end up dead anyway.
 
I'm curious with all these new CB being implemented into the game, will we more than likely be able to see a lot more A.I rulers form dejure Kingdoms from earlier start dates like 769 and 867? Those start date tend to have a lot of bordergore, especially 769. Speaking about 769 its self Kingdoms like England, Russia, Hungary( Magyar get reck most early game, and Byzantium all always holy wars the Avar's ), and Austria always gets reck by the Umayyad with no support from the other christians lords.
 
Honestly I feel this like a plug rather than a solution to the problem.

Basically you say that the chance system is bad because it can let you wait for years and that's not fun, so you give something that let you do it anyway. That is a criticism that a lot of people made though since the release of the game, and that's why pagans and other religion are so popular when people want to do a conquest run.

I have this feeling with a lot of things in the game, like culture and religion conversion that can happen after 300 years or just 2 months after you sent your chaplain. That's not really fun either. I think the base chance system is not really a fun one at base for these things, I think we as player should have more imput on this.

For example I would much prefer a system similar to the publishing paper event chain where we fabricate a claim after a fixed amount of time but the important thing is to make this claim real to others. For example if we fabricate a half-assed excuse, then we would gain great opinion maluses with neighbors and/or threat, that way if we abuse it we would risk leading to a coalition against us twice or thrice as fast as with conquest. However, if through high learning/diplomacy/intrigue or even traits we manage to make a good justification for our claim, we would not gain any of that.
 
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