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CK2 Dev Diary #51: The Roof of the World

Hi folks!

PDXCON 2017 is over and it was fantastic to meet so many of you! I got a lot of interesting suggestions and feedback on our games, including, of course, CK2. So, a special thank you goes out to those of you who were there!

Now then, let’s talk a bit about those ugly gray areas on the map; the wastelands. Aesthetically, I’ve never liked the gray color of wasteland provinces in the non-Terrain map modes, so I took some time to change it so that wasteland is now always shown as Terrain, regardless of map mode (we might add options for this in the settings. Let me know what you think!)

Northern Siberia and the Sahara deserve to be wasteland; it’s difficult to do anything more about that (we’ve already twisted and manipulated the map projection, etc.) However, the Himalayas and the vast Tibetan plateau are a different story… Though mountainous, the region contains many important population centers and religious sites and has a rich history of interaction with China, India and Central Asia. In essence, the only reason it’s a “wasteland” in CK2 is that we haven’t prioritized doing it justice.

tibet_full.png

Tibet, 1066. Note that any green Coat of Arms are placeholders.


I’ve never been happy with the way the eastern edge of the map feels like the edge of the world when, in fact, it should be a dynamic hub connecting at least four major civilizations (China, India, the Steppe Nomads and the Islamic world.) Well, the time to do something about that is now! In our working build, we have added the necessary provinces, new cultures (Bodpa, Tangut and Nepalese), new religions (Bön and Khurmazta), and title history for the entire region.

himalaya.png

The Himalayan mountains, 867.

The Bön religion is a pagan faith which functionally has many similarities with the Romuvan and Buddhist religions: It is very hard to convert, has access to Gavelkind, and unlike other pagan faiths it can not be reformed (though this might change in the future.) Instead, it starts off with the ability to designate heirs, just like Buddhists. It has also got a Patron Deity system like that of the Hindus and the “defensive” Pagans.

bon.png

Purang, one of the Bön religion's Holy Sites.


In addition, we are looking over the great Muslim conquerors (Sabuktigin, Seljuq and Timur) to make sure they usually rise, toning down the Indian Holy Orders and making them creatable (rather than existing from the start.) We also plan to add or expand on adventurers for more generic conquests into and out of the subcontinent especially.

There is more, but that would be revealing too much too soon. :) Stay tuned for the next dev diary!

EDIT: Todays livestreams are cancelled due to attrition from PDXCON.
 
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BTW, having unowned provinces appear as terrain works well in EU4, but there it works well because you're gradually expanding into it and you have the feeling of taming the wilderness. It doesn't just sit there, empty, for the entire game.

In CK2, I feel like it'd be better if you had some sort of map-like appearance for the wasteland. Little pictures of towns, sand dunes, dragons. Especially for areas that had significant populations. Even if it was just a matter of labeling, it would look better if places like Burma were labelled as "Mysterious Lands" or something instead of Wastelands.
 
Not about maps at all, but i would love to see some more flavor to the designated regent system which make it worth fighting for. For example that a designated regent should be able to start war or/and change laws depending on how power the king has and how much the regent liked/likes the previous/ ruler.

I would also like some work on the assassinations so that you could get so alternatives in how to execute them depending on how many there in the assassination plan and/or how much chance they have to succeed. One last suggestion regarding the previous dev diary in which you should be able to go to war with your liege lord if he/she has have your closed kin imprisoned illegally.

Apologies if my english are a bit unpolished since it´s not my first language.

Best regards, emand91
 
Ok, this is cool. But... it's not east enough! China please :)
India -> Big Gap of Terra Incognita -> Japan.

Maybe add the New World, too, so the Sunset Invaders have a place to live.
 
India -> Big Gap of Terra Incognita -> Japan.

Maybe add the New World, too, so the Sunset Invaders have a place to live.
They've put us on the wrong feet with this, next week they'll reveal the new world (Colombia to Canada that is) that can't be reached in any way, without full ship tech (which the Aztecs get for free with sunset invasion active) (except for going to Canada via Greenland if shiptech 3(?) is achieved - I'd love setting up a permanent Vinland or keeping contact alive while christianity spreads through scandinavia).

Know what; I'd actually love it; natives playable with new dlc; Aztecs with SI
 
If we do get China that's cool with me, but since Tibet's now playable, I wouldn't mind some more detail in Africa. The area is so poorly done at the moment that I'd almost rather it not be in. But a Mali that's as historically rich as it was, with other empires like Kanem-Bornu and Ghana to fight against? That'd be interesting.
 
A bit more on this:
There were actually not just 1, but 3 jiedushi who should be on the map.

Hexi (河西)
Although Hexi was supposed to be in the Hexi Corridor, the successful Tibetan offensive drove the Tang military northwards, and by 769 the control was conveniently reduced to Shazhou (Dunhuang) and Guazhou (Anxi). The Jiedushi then was Zhou Ding (周鼎).

Beiting (北庭)
The seat of the Jiedushi of Beiting was in Beshbalik (庭州 Tingzhou), and controls Turpan (西州 Xizhou) and Kumul (伊州 Yizhou). The jiedushi (though the office was actually 都護 duhu at that time) in 769 was Cao Lingzhong (曹令忠), later awarded the imperial surname of Li and became Li Yuanzhong (李元忠). Additionally, according to the internet, he's a Soghdian.

Anxi (安西)
Centered in Kucha (龜茲 Qiuci), and controlled the rest of the Tarim Basin. There were two jiedushi around that time and there seems to be no information on when the succession occurred. The earlier one was Erzhu Mou (爾朱某), the latter one was Guo Xin (郭昕), nephew of the Tang general Guo Ziyi (郭子儀).

Source of names and offices:

https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/喻安西北庭諸將制


https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/賜李元忠郭昕詔

A Chinese monk Wukong recorded the local kings and Chinese commanders in the Taklamakan on his way home, and here's the excerpt of the section from entering Tang-controlled territory to taking a detour in Uyghur lands (due to Tibetan occupation of Gansu). I was able to find two copies of the text which helped me spot scribal errors and typos.

http://nigioikhatsi.net/han/16-shizhuan/51/2089/2089-2.htm
渐届疏勒(一名沙勒)时王裴冷冷。镇守使鲁阳。留住五月。次至于阗(亦云于遁或云豁丹)梵云瞿萨怛那(唐言地乳国)王尉迟曜。镇守使郑据。延住六月。次威戎城亦名钵浣国。正曰怖汗国。镇守使苏岑。次据瑟得城使卖诠。次至安西。四镇节度使开府仪同三司捡校右散骑常侍安西副大都护兼御史大夫郭昕。龟兹国王白环(亦云丘兹)正曰屈支城。

于此城住一年有余。次至乌耆国王龙如林。镇守使扬日祐。延留三月。从此又发至北庭州本道节度使御史大夫杨袭古。

时逢圣朝四镇北庭宣慰使中使段明秀来至北庭。洎贞元五年己巳之岁九月十三日。与本道奏事官节度押衙牛昕。安西道奏事官程锷等。随使入朝。

https://suttacentral.net/lzh/t780a
漸屆踈勒(一名沙勒),時王裴冷冷,鎮守使魯陽,留住五月。次至于闐(亦云于遁或云訟丹),梵云瞿薩怛那(唐言地乳國),王尉遲曜、鎮守使鄭據,延住六月。次威戎城亦名鉢浣國,正曰怖污國,鎮守使蘇岑,次據瑟得城使賈詮,次至安西,四鎮節度使開府儀同三司撿挍右散騎常侍安西副大都護兼御史大夫郭昕,龜茲國王白環(亦云丘茲)正曰屈支城。

於此城住一年有餘。次至烏耆國,王龍如林、鎮守使楊日祐,延留三月。從此又發至北庭州,本道節度使御史大夫楊襲古,

時逢聖朝四鎮北庭,宜慰使中使叚明秀來至北庭,洎貞元五年己巳之歲九月十三日,與本道奏事官節度押衙牛昕、安西道奏事官程鍔等,隨使入朝。

Here are the cities and names mentioned, the local kings' name are sinicized though. All four kings mentioned were found in the seat of the Four Garrisons of Anxi.

Kashgar(疏勒): King Pei Lengleng, Commander Lu Yang

Khotan(于闐): King Yuchi Yao*, Commander Zheng Ju

Bharuka(威戎城): Commander Su Cen

???**(據瑟得 Mandarin: Ju se de/Middle Chinese: Kyo she tək): Commander Jia Quan

Kucha(龜茲): Jiedushi Guo Xin of Anxi (安西), King Bai Huan

Arsi(烏耆): King Long Rulin, Commander Yang Riyou

Beshbalik(庭州): Jiedushi Yang Xigu of Beiting (北庭)

*Yuchi Yao is Sata II Vijaya ingame. His brother Yuchi Sheng (Dhondhros Vijaya ingame) went to Changan to fought the An Lushan rebellion and stayed there afterwards.

**I couldn't find any other reference to this city on the Internet, and the title of the local commander (城使) is different from everyone else's (鎮守使)

The date of his departure from Beshbalik, the only definite date in the passage, is 6 October, 789 in Julian calendar, according to this converter:
http://sinocal.sinica.edu.tw/
唐德宗貞元5年9月13日
西元789年10月6日(星期二)

So the information was 20 years later than the start date, but still better than nothing, I guess?
 
BTW, having unowned provinces appear as terrain works well in EU4, but there it works well because you're gradually expanding into it and you have the feeling of taming the wilderness. It doesn't just sit there, empty, for the entire game.

In CK2, I feel like it'd be better if you had some sort of map-like appearance for the wasteland. Little pictures of towns, sand dunes, dragons. Especially for areas that had significant populations. Even if it was just a matter of labeling, it would look better if places like Burma were labelled as "Mysterious Lands" or something instead of Wastelands.

Something like the approach Civ VI takes for portraying terra incognito.
 
Those historic adventurers do tend to need a bit of a leg up from what I've seen, between this and last week's we might be getting a VERY chaotic and warlike dlc
I haven't played CKII in a while so not sure whether it's still a problem, but at least in the past the main reason they didn't rise was that the automatic cull grabbed them before they got the chance.
 
The Bön religion is a pagan faith which functionally has many similarities with the Romuvan and Buddhist religions: It is very hard to convert, has access to Gavelkind, and unlike other pagan faiths it can not be reformed (though this might change in the future.) Instead, it starts off with the ability to designate heirs, just like Buddhists. It has also got a Patron Deity system like that of the Hindus and the “defensive” Pagans.
Will the Bon Faith require other DLCs than the Old Gods to have mechanics like Zunist or will it be like the standard Pagan faiths?
 
You are modding yourself? It looks quite nice! Is this Tianxia: Silk Road Expansion ? But the portrait seems not to be the portrait in Tianxia.
No, Tianxia has China, SEAsia, Indonesia, Japan, Mongolia and Manchuria.
 
I, for one, say no to China for it is historically inaccurate!

I was fine with watching England flip to Sunni, reforming the Roman Empire, fighting the Aztecs, boning Jeanne d'Arc, fighting Cthulhu, becoming the Saoshyant, kung fu Elephant battles, straight up made up kingdoms/empires, seducing every queen & princess in the game despite being an infirm-crippled-inbred 70 year old, fighting constant wars with some adventurer that somehow got enough money to fight the entire empire, immortality, the gates of hell, demonic possession, holy possession, and people going around wearing giant skull masks in public.

But China? China is too damn far! I mean I'm going to buy it anyway like everyone else will but I'm letting you know I'm not buying it! I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
You're my new favorite person. The devs could go either way with the whole China thing but I think they will make the right decision and make the best game that they can.