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CK2 Dev Diary #51: The Roof of the World

Hi folks!

PDXCON 2017 is over and it was fantastic to meet so many of you! I got a lot of interesting suggestions and feedback on our games, including, of course, CK2. So, a special thank you goes out to those of you who were there!

Now then, let’s talk a bit about those ugly gray areas on the map; the wastelands. Aesthetically, I’ve never liked the gray color of wasteland provinces in the non-Terrain map modes, so I took some time to change it so that wasteland is now always shown as Terrain, regardless of map mode (we might add options for this in the settings. Let me know what you think!)

Northern Siberia and the Sahara deserve to be wasteland; it’s difficult to do anything more about that (we’ve already twisted and manipulated the map projection, etc.) However, the Himalayas and the vast Tibetan plateau are a different story… Though mountainous, the region contains many important population centers and religious sites and has a rich history of interaction with China, India and Central Asia. In essence, the only reason it’s a “wasteland” in CK2 is that we haven’t prioritized doing it justice.

tibet_full.png

Tibet, 1066. Note that any green Coat of Arms are placeholders.


I’ve never been happy with the way the eastern edge of the map feels like the edge of the world when, in fact, it should be a dynamic hub connecting at least four major civilizations (China, India, the Steppe Nomads and the Islamic world.) Well, the time to do something about that is now! In our working build, we have added the necessary provinces, new cultures (Bodpa, Tangut and Nepalese), new religions (Bön and Khurmazta), and title history for the entire region.

himalaya.png

The Himalayan mountains, 867.

The Bön religion is a pagan faith which functionally has many similarities with the Romuvan and Buddhist religions: It is very hard to convert, has access to Gavelkind, and unlike other pagan faiths it can not be reformed (though this might change in the future.) Instead, it starts off with the ability to designate heirs, just like Buddhists. It has also got a Patron Deity system like that of the Hindus and the “defensive” Pagans.

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Purang, one of the Bön religion's Holy Sites.


In addition, we are looking over the great Muslim conquerors (Sabuktigin, Seljuq and Timur) to make sure they usually rise, toning down the Indian Holy Orders and making them creatable (rather than existing from the start.) We also plan to add or expand on adventurers for more generic conquests into and out of the subcontinent especially.

There is more, but that would be revealing too much too soon. :) Stay tuned for the next dev diary!

EDIT: Todays livestreams are cancelled due to attrition from PDXCON.
 
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And now I can play as Karakhanids easier. No more stuck with Samanids, I could start my expand from Kashgar. And will be connected to India through Kashmir ;)

Regards, Hope we could test the beta for the Provinces.
 
PLEASE ADD CHINA AND ASIA!!!!!

My theory is that the last "big" expansion was originally going to be China but Doomdark decided it would be too ambitious at some point, which is why they're scaling it back to previous expansion sizes now.

The reason why they showed Tibet so early is because it was originally part of the big China expansion, but they decided that it would be too much to handle, so Tibet became a part of the free patch material, and they went with another idea for the expansion.
 
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Don't get too excited. Burma is still wasteland, PDox won't extend the map any further.
You are right.
""In our working build, we have added the necessary provinces, new cultures (Bodpa, Tangut and Nepalese), new religions (Bön and Khurmazta), and title history for the entire region.""
Burmese culture is not there.
The addition of east Asia and south east Asia would've made CK2 a complete game, but seems it is not going to be happen.
 
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There has been one in CK2 for... at least 2 major patches now. Look down on the bottom right, it should be to the left of the minimap.

I was aware of that, but I was specifically referring to an EU4-style music player that allows you to select/deselect certain songs, determine whether it's in order or shuffled, and all that. Sorry if I was being vague about that.
 
Now then, let’s talk a bit about those ugly gray areas on the map; the wastelands. Aesthetically, I’ve never liked the gray color of wasteland provinces in the non-Terrain map modes, so I took some time to change it so that wasteland is now always shown as Terrain, regardless of map mode (we might add options for this in the settings. Let me know what you think!)

Northern Siberia and the Sahara deserve to be wasteland; it’s difficult to do anything more about that (we’ve already twisted and manipulated the map projection, etc.) However, the Himalayas and the vast Tibetan plateau are a different story… Though mountainous, the region contains many important population centers and religious sites and has a rich history of interaction with China, India and Central Asia. In essence, the only reason it’s a “wasteland” in CK2 is that we haven’t prioritized doing it justice.
I hope we will be able to turn grey wastelands on in game rules.

Yeah, same. I actually don't care for the new look. Might be that I'm just too used to grey wasteland.

Let's talk more about the wastelands...
I think that around the edges of deserts, there could be new terrain type, usable also for some wastelands in between normal provinces (which should be Syrian desert, Rub al-Khali in Arabia, Kara-Kum and Kizil-Kum deserts in Central Asia etc. as well as those parts of Sahara between "The Trans-Saharan corridors"). On political map they would work like sea provinces with regard to trade posts or EU4 wasteland provinces - if surrounded by some state/dynasty, the wasteland-province's political colour would change depending on who owns majority of bordering land.

More importantly, these semi-desert provinces would work as some kind of "shelter" and "retreat & ambush" territory for certain type of armies. They would be accessible only to armies of certain type of government (nomadic and tribal) or cultures (Mongol, Altaic and Turkish culture group, Bedouin Arabs, Berbers, Baluch etc.), and/or those with cavalry tech above certain level. This was these wasteland-provinces could be crossed by these armies - effecting in suprise attacks (so typical for nomadic hordes against settled kingdoms) and in regions on the edge of the deserts with strong nomadic presence (such as Arabia and North Africa), thus would give local nomads/desert tribes a chance to regroup and attack invaders from outside and thus would boost their chance to defend themselves against armies from Europe or Egypt who tend to overrun these regions way too easily.

Similar thing could work for mountain passes or provinces in high mountains, which would be passable only to some cultures or causing different attrition to various cultures
Generaly speaking it would solve many problems if there would be some terrain bonuses tied to cultures - for instance desert/steppe based cultures could have large bonuses on arid/plain terrains, especially against infantry units, or cultures which are not used to this type of terrain would suffer much larger attrition than others, which might prevent things like Byzantines expanding into the Steppe and effectively controlling it, Europeans easily conquering (and controlling) North Africa etc.

Also with the exception of certain cultures, I believe that the attrition in the desert should be much higher in order to prevent an easy creation of Trans-Saharan empires (or in general empires stretching on both sides of major geographic barriers like deserts or mountain ranges - typically Hungary often expanding on the outer side of Carpathian range (Ukraine, Wallachia) instead of into the Balkans.
As for the prevention of trans-Saharan or trans-desert(ish) empires, I have proposed creation of oasis holdings (scroll down a little), with some more info about them here. Generally speaking, these holdings would exist in desert or semi-desert areas (something similar could exist in high mountains or other hardly accessible terrain types) and they would somehow make it extremely hard to replace these holdings by another holding type. Those holding types couldn't be held by other than tribal government and thus any foreign power would suffer an opinion malus for controlling them even as vassals => These territories would need to be controlled only as tributaries, or the liege would permanently face revolt - both would be historically accurate for these regions.

Any other ideas?
 
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It just occurred to me that Tangut culture might mean we're getting a Xi Xia state in Dunhuang on certain start dates. It'll be interesting to see how that's handled.
 
It just occurred to me that Tangut culture might mean we're getting a Xi Xia state in Dunhuang on certain start dates. It'll be interesting to see how that's handled.
I would be gravely offended if they add Western Xia before the Guiyi Army.
 
Most likely it'll all just be Khitan placeholder culture. I don't really mind though because without new portraits they're basically meaningless to me. I'd still like Mongols to get some new portraits but probably won't happen.
 
It just occurred to me that Tangut culture might mean we're getting a Xi Xia state in Dunhuang on certain start dates. It'll be interesting to see how that's handled.

Actually, isn't it confirmed? Check that map on the first page...

"The full title of the Western Xia as named by their own state is reconstructed as /*phiow¹-bjij²-lhjij-lhjij²/ which translates as "The Great Xia State of the White and the Lofty" (白高大夏國), or called "mjɨ-njaa" or "khjɨ-dwuu-lhjij" (萬祕國). The region was known to the Tanguts and the Tibetans as Minyak.[1][7]"

Their Wikipedia article also suggests they referred to themselves as "Minyak."
 
But the on-map Minyak is in Kham/Qinghai, not Gansu. You can see a separate light-purple state where the Xi Xia ought to be.