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CK2 Dev Diary #53: Time to pay Tribute

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk to you about a part of the game that we’ve chosen to overhaul and improve - the Tributary system! Introduced in Horse Lords, the ‘Make Tributary’ CB allowed you to go to war with a neighboring realm to make them pay you 40% of their income until the death of your current character. It was quite a simple system that didn’t always fit the intended purpose very well, so we decided to make it more advanced and capable of diverse use!

Tributaries can now come in a lot of flavors, as they are entirely definable in a new ‘tributary_types’ file. You define a name and then you set the parameters for how you would like the Tributary to work. You are able to customize a lot of things, for example; the various tribute percentages, if the Tributary should be set free on death or if the Suzerain must defend the Tributary in wars.

With this new system we have lots of ideas on where we could add new types of Tributaries, i.e. Permanent Tributaries or Nomad Tributaries. If you have any ideas for a type of Tributary (and when it would make sense to have it/when to gain access to the CB) feel free to post a suggestion in this thread!

To demonstrate, here’s the script for an example Tributary type:

Code:
example = {                                # name used for that type of tributary. "default" is the standard type, replacing the old tributaries, and "none" is reserved and should not be used
    tributary_name = TRIBUTARY_DEFAULT_NAME        # localization string used for tributaries of that type (ie "Tributary" for the default type, "Permanent Tributary" for the Permanent type, etc)
    tributary_plural = TRIBUTARY_DEFAULT_PLURAL    # localization string used for tributaries of that type, when there is more than one (ie "Tributaries" for the default type, "Permanent Tributaries" for the Permanent type, etc)
    suzerain_name = SUZERAIN_DEFAULT_NAME        # localization string used for suzerains of that tributary type (ie "Suzerain" for the default type, "Permanent Suzerain" for the Permanent type, etc)
    tribute_name = TRIBUTARY_DEFAULT_TRIBUTE    # localization string used for "paying $TRIBUTE$" for that tributary type
    breaks_at_suzerain_death = yes        # yes/no value determining if the tributary relationship is dissolved when the suzerain dies.
    breaks_at_tributary_death = no         # yes/no value determining if the tributary relationship is dissolved when the tributary dies
    suzerain_must_defend = no             # yes/no value determining if the suzerain is forced to accept calls to arms from tributary in defensive wars (wars were the tributary is the defender)
                                        # if they decline anyway, they will lose the tributary and an amount of prestige defined in defines.lua, called SUZERAIN_DEFENDER_CALL_DECLINE_COST
    tributary_can_be_summoned = yes     # yes/no value determining if the suzerain can calls the tributaries to war (as tribal vassals / allies)   
    tributary_must_defend = yes            # yes/no value determining if the tributaries are forced to accept defensive calls to arms
    tributaries_can_infight = yes        # yes/no value determining if the tributaries can fight against each others, if both tributaries are of the same type
                                        # if tributaries are of different types, they will always be allowed to fight each other, even if they have the same suzerain
    suzerain_can_join_infighting = yes    # yes/no value determining if the suzerain can join a tributary in a war against another
    tributaries_can_unite = no             # yes/no value determining if, when trying to break, the tributaries can band together against the suzerain, à la major revolt
    breaks_on_realm_change=yes            # yes/no value determining if the tributary relationship is dissolved when the tributary's titles change realms
    cbs_against_suzerain = {            # list of CBs tributaries can use against their suzerain
        free_tributary_cb
    }
    income_tribute_percentage = {        # how much of their monthly income the tributary must pay to their suzerain.
                                        # THIS IS ONLY EVALUATED WHEN THE TRIBUTARY RELATIONSHIP IS FORMED
                                        # and is not reevaluated afterwards
                                        # this value is an MTTH and should compute a value between 0 and 1, inclusive
                                        # in case the total is less than 0, it will be counted as 0
                                        # in case the total is more than 1, it will be counted as 1
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain
        value = 0.10
        additive_modifier = {
            value = 0.05
            FROM = {
                is_merchant_republic = yes
            }
        }
    }
    reinforce_tribute_percentage = {    # How much of the tributary's reinforcement rate will go to the suzerain's instead.
                                        # THIS IS ONLY EVALUATED WHEN THE TRIBUTARY RELATIONSHIP IS FORMED
                                        # and is not reevaluated afterwards
                                        # this value is an MTTH and should compute a value between 0 and 1, inclusive
                                        # in case the total is less than 0, it will be counted as 0
                                        # in case the total is more than 1, it will be counted as 1
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain

                                        # this is applied by subtracting the percentage, as is, from the tributary's reinforcement rate
                                        # and adding a scaled (based on demesne size= version of the percentage to the suzerain
                                        # So, for example, the tributary loses 10% of reinforcement rate, but the suzerain gains 10% * (tributary's demesne size) / (suzerain's demesne size)
        value = 0.10
        additive_modifier = {
            value = 0.05
            FROM = {
                is_merchant_republic = yes
            }
        }
    }
    prestige_to_suzerain = {            # how much of prestige the suzerain gains every month per tributary (of that type) he holds
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the suzerain's prestige every month.
                                        # current scope is the suzerain, FROM is the tributary
        value = 0
    }
    prestige_to_tributary = {            # how much prestige the tributary gains every month
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the tributary's prestige every month.
                                        # to make them lose prestige, return a negative value
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain
        value = 0
    }
    piety_to_suzerain = {                # how much of piety the suzerain gains every month per tributary (of that type) he holds
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the suzerain's piety every month.
                                        # current scope is the suzerain, FROM is the tributary
        value = 0
    }
    piety_to_tributary = {                # how much of piety a tributary gains every month
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the tributary's piety every month.
                                        # to make them lose piety, return a negative value
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain
        value = 0
    }
}

I’d also like to expand upon something we touched upon in the last DD; the new ‘unjust conquest’ CB (now renamed to Border Dispute). When declaring a Border Dispute over a County you first and foremost have to pay an upfront cost of Piety and Gold scaled to your tier (in the case of Pagans, prestige is used), but you also take an opinion hit from both your religious head (if you have one) as well as any landed characters of the targeted religious group in both your realm and the one you’re attacking. Note that these opinion modifiers stack! This makes the border Dispute CB dangerous to use on characters of your own religion, especially if you have a religious head capable of excommunicating you. You will primarily want to use this CB to expand early on when drawing the ire of your co-religionists is worth the risk, or against characters not of your religion.

Border_dispute_tooltip.png

Example is of an Irish Count wanting to conquer another Irish Count.


Note that Muslims, Nomads and in certain cases Pagans do not have access to this CB, as their current CB’s are already superior. It is also possible to turn the CB off entirely by using Game Rules.
Border_dispute_GR.png


Note that we’ve also decided to leave Fabricate Claim as it is right now.
 
YOU'LL NEVER GET ME MONEY, NEVER
 
I was somewhat skeptical of an "unjust war" for Christian realm, but I like this Border Dispute better. Prestige + gold doesn't necessarily matter, but a realm-wide opinion malus is a good way to balance it. Thumb up from me!
 
Remove the fabricated claims, especially due to the new "unjustified demands" or implement at least a rule to deactivate this "feature" !
 
Remove the fabricated claims, especially due to the new "unjustified demands" or implement at least a rule to deactivate this "feature" !
You know that the Fabricate Claim job is for more things than claiming a single, out of your realm province, don't you?
 
Where does the gold from declaring the war go? Does it just vanish?

It goes to the ruler making people shit up about unjust war declarations I guess.

Any insight as to why the Fabricate Claim is remaining?

The same reason why the new CB is a game rule: not everyone is fond of the change.

Remove the fabricated claims, especially due to the new "unjustified demands" or implement at least a rule to deactivate this "feature" !

Why would they do it? With the new rule on, you don't need it unless you want to claim a county far away from your borders. It is still there for those who want to use the old system.
 
Border dispute seems really balanced, nice work. Very glad Fabricate Claims is remaining, I use it for reason to revoke on my vassals too when I want their land for my demense. It's also very useful as a Kingdom/Empire when you want one specific county, or even waiting a number of years with a young ruler and getting a few claims for specific counties in the one realm and then attacking.

One thing I would kind of like would be some way to Fabricate a claim on feudal baronies in my own demense, for when I want to play tall. Currently my best way to get baronies is to just murder all of the barons and hope that inherit it soon and not get caught.
 
The claim fabrication costs gold, and this cb is supposed to be less powerful and more expensive than a regular claim fabrication

Sure, it makes sense gameplay wise. But it is hard to grasp flavor wise.
Wouldn't it be better to simply get rid of the gold payment in both claim fabrication and border dispute?
Fabricating claims would then cost mostly time, and declaring a border dispute would mostly cost opinion/piety/prestige. It would still be easy to balance, in my opinion.
 
Quick question, if your religious head is in your realm (or the realm you are attacking) will they get two loads of the negative opinion penalty with them, or just one instance? Either option makes sense from different perspectives. It is reasonable that a religious head would be more upset about a war that directly involves them, but on the other hand you are committing exactly the same amount of injustice against your brothers in faith when the pope is your vassal as you be if he weren't your vassal.

Also how does this CB interact with alliances? Will Allies be able to be called into border disputes you initiate despite them believing them unjust? If they can be called would it be reasonable to make them less likely to accept such call to arms?
 
You know that the Fabricate Claim job is for more things than claiming a single, out of your realm province, don't you?
I know, but ...
Why would they do it? With the new rule on, you don't need it unless you want to claim a county far away from your borders. It is still there for those who want to use the old system.
Yeah, it's a gamey feature, a possible reason for bordergore, it's against the spirit of the game to gain claims via the succession-mechanic and 1 of the major reasons for claims everywhere.

Edit:
Due to "1 of the major reasons for claims everywhere", it's 1 of the major reasons for (useless) wars everywhere, too.
 
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100% of the time, I expect to use this CB cautiously. 99 times out of that 100, I expect myself to use that Border Dispute CB to fix ugly borders. The remaining 1 will be used out of sheer spite towards a hated enemy.
 
I’d also like to expand upon something we touched upon in the last DD; the new ‘unjust conquest’ CB (now renamed to Border Dispute). When declaring a Border Dispute over a County you first and foremost have to pay an upfront cost of Piety and Gold scaled to your tier (in the case of Pagans, prestige is used), but you also take an opinion hit from both your religious head (if you have one) as well as any landed characters of the targeted religious group in both your realm and the one you’re attacking. Note that these opinion modifiers stack! This makes the border Dispute CB dangerous to use on characters of your own religion, especially if you have a religious head capable of excommunicating you. You will primarily want to use this CB to expand early on when drawing the ire of your co-religionists is worth the risk, or against characters not of your religion.
Would that mean that you're re-thinking the relations with the religion head to mean a little more? The Pope seems very passive for a game about the Middle Ages, and other religious heads often have even less to say unless you happen to be one. I'd be very excited if that were the case :)
 
Is there a direct risk of excommunication for using the Border dispute? Or does that stem from just getting a lowered opinion with the pope? In my experience excommunications rarely ever happens based on the pope having a low opinion.

I disliked the CB at first, and I still do to some extent, but I'll also admit it now looks better. So kudos.
 
I don't think the downsides are severe enough to really stop blobs from going crazy with it. The Pope hardly ever uses Excommunication and large rulers can put down vassals rather easily. Unless the Pope is getting more bite this next patch, kingdoms and empires will laugh at these penalties.
 
For tributaries I would really like the Baqt type between Egypt and Nubia.It would basically a tributary without the military aspect. Just a Non Agression pact but no protection of each other. So 'Money for Non Agression'
This!
Or like the relationship that was established between Republic of Ragusa and Ottoman Empire, that let the small city survive from the middle ages till the Napoleon' arrival....
 
Nice addition, but it is red herring for real problems of this game.
"Your leg is broken, how about you do this dumbbell curls to improve your arm strength!"