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CK2 Dev Diary #62: News from China

Greetings!

Last week I talked about how we’re adding China to the world of Crusader Kings II without actually extending the map any farther. When you are playing in the Orient, you would be wise to remember the “Divine Land” to the east. Indeed, from time to time, you will be getting tidings about the situation in China so that you can plan accordingly. China has a Status and a Policy. The latter rarely changes except when a new emperor ascends to the Dragon Throne (or when the Western Governorate either wins or loses a major war.) By far the most common Policy is “Open”, which means it’s business as usual; China is open to trade and the Silk Road is active. Moreover, the emperor is interested in maintaining the tributary system and in conducting diplomacy with the barbarian periphery. However, some Chinese administrations favor a “Closed” Policy. At such times, the Silk Road will be shut down and the emperor will not deal with foreign rulers. Neither will China attempt any form of military adventures beyond its borders. Lastly, and most rarely, China may adopt an “Expansionist” Policy. This is a time of great peril for rulers near the Chinese border, who would be well advised to swallow their pride and kowtow to the emperor, accepting tributary status before the Western Governorate is expanded with extreme force...

DDJurchens.png


Chinese Policy should be seen as a political stance, but China also has a “Status”, which is beyond the emperor’s control. For example, China can be struck by famine, plague, unrest, Civil Wars and invasions by Mongols and Jurchens, and it can also sometimes experience a “Golden Age”. All of these states have an impact on China’s behavior and on the Silk Road. For example, if China suffers from famine, income from the Silk Road is drastically lowered, and players should watch out for the conclusion to a Chinese Civil War or Altaic invasion; it is not unheard of for a displaced dynasty or losing faction to seek refuge in the West… More on that in a later dev diary. I believe that will do it for today. Next week we’ll go into details about how you interact with China and what’s in it for you!
 
How will empires that appear landed in the game but with large territories in China treated under the new China system? For example Liao and Yuan were both based in China but currently have extensive territories on the map. Will you be able to play as Kublai Khan? Will the Liao Emperor appear as the Chinese emperor or will the Song emperor be the Chinese emperor?
 
Unlikely. The Inca realm was only relevant outside the surroundings of Cuzco and encompassing large areas of South America by the mid XV century, later than the last start date. Maybe the Chimu or Wari fit the time frame better.
It would be as anachronistic as the usage of "Aztec" is for the current DLC.
If you played with SI you would know that the Aztec's actually get attacked from the Inca's who appear to be more powerful. ;)
 
Which dynasties? Aside from the 5 Dynasties/10 Kingdoms period, which took 50 years, the transitions were pretty swift.



Why does that matter? They held the core productive/well-populated regions of the country, which is what matters. An awful lot of what is now Western and Northern China was sparsely populated; moreover, it would not have been considered part of China during this period.



After the Tang there was a 50-year period of disunity, then unity again until the Northern Song were forced south in the 12th century (I mean, there were a few northern regions which the Liao held, but the Song held the vast bulk of the country). Even after that, China was still only split into two or three pieces, each of which would have had a population and productive capacity that dwarfed pretty much every polity west of them.

I suppose that the period immediately following the fall of the Tang would have lacked a particularly strong Chinese polity, though. But aside from that, I can't think of anywhere else that would have the same capacity as any Chinese state.
I wasn't talking about that because that is in between the 867 and 1066 start date but even during the Song there are other dynasties the song overlap with Liao, Western Xia, and Jin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histo...stern_Xia_dynasties_.28AD_960.E2.80.931234.29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_dynasty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liao_dynasty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Xia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_dynasty_(1115–1234)
f88ee0023844856496d5422dc29bbf8d.gif

It is more accurate to think of China as a subcontinent than as a empire. It's as isolated as India is by open steppe to the north and north west mountains in the west and south west and sea in all other directions.
And since the collapse from Tang to the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms era happens in the time frame I expect it to be possible for china to have such eras of chaos. Even if it obviously itself does not happen during any start date. And that recovery from such periods aren't a certainty.

lol a China map expansion after this is never going to happen

they're not going to spend time programming content that will only be invalidated later on

my only hope is that they actually make the China mechanic engaging and historically accurate and not bullshit that just collides with other mechanics like Mongols or other off screen death stack invasions
Not in ck2 at least no. ck3 might get one.

I agree, although I would have preferred the map to be extended, it is a choice that can be understood, but this off-map China have to be done interestingly, and not rushed then sold to a unreasonable price. Unfortunately for the moment what is presented seems to be rather vague; An invisible faction, some events and a nice screen that tell us if things are going well in china. There are also nice ribbons of new colors but I hope they cover new systems of government and not elements already present in the game and simply reworked. Wait and see as the proverb says, for the moment Paradox does not answer many questions so it is quite difficult to get a clear idea of the expansion. I just hope that China will be well represented and not just by some evements and wandering armies .
Considering this reminds me of institutions and ages from EU4, I am sceptical

Unlikely. The Inca realm was only relevant outside the surroundings of Cuzco and encompassing large areas of South America by the mid XV century, later than the last start date. Maybe the Chimu or Wari fit the time frame better.
It would be as anachronistic as the usage of "Aztec" is for the current DLC.
Yeah they should really fix these. Though if they added a continue button they could have a later start date and perhaps even some content for the super late game.

Well, there was also no Aztec Empire (which was actually the Mexica Triple Alliance) until 1428, barely 20 years before the end of the game's timeline.
True enough they should really change the name of the aztec empire.

Ok, you got me! I always disable Sunset Invasion :oops:
Well as it is presented presently it makes little sense but the core concept of an american power invading over the sea isn't so bad.
 
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How will empires that appear landed in the game but with large territories in China treated under the new China system? For example Liao and Yuan were both based in China but currently have extensive territories on the map. Will you be able to play as Kublai Khan? Will the Liao Emperor appear as the Chinese emperor or will the Song emperor be the Chinese emperor?
I guess their western (on-map) territories they will be the Western Governorate as displayed in the DD#61.

So if we are able to play as the Western governorate, we would most probably be the emperor's vasals or something like that. The relation of WG to the Dragon throne remains a big question however. Hopefully a question that will be answered (and solved) interestingly.
Another question is what would happen if WG decides to break up with the emperor (that relation certainly should have some downsides, not only benefits in terms of chinese doomstacks)
 
Well the western governate makes sense in the tang era or the yuan (though for the yuan it would probably be more accurately to just have the ilkhanate and golden horde as tributaries instead, they nominally paid tribute to the yuan atleast for a time), but for the song or ming to have them is a bit odd since they have more traditionally chinese territories to subdue first (assuming you start in a start date where they exist).
 
Wait the minute! What wrong with the picture, look closely, the building is European architectures?
And what kind of flag is it, Chinese didn't use that kind of flag, did you guys watch Chinese movie?
 
Wait the minute! What wrong with the picture, look closely, the building is European architectures?
And what kind of flag is it, Chinese didn't use that kind of flag, did you guys watch Chinese movie?

I don't think any building in that picture is supposed to be set in China. I don't know about the flags/banners though.

As a Chinese, I have to indicate that "Yinzong" of "Zhao Yinzong" is a temple name (wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_name ), which is given after the death to the emperor. That means, when the emperor was alive, his temple name didn't exist, while he only had his personal name "Zhao Shu"(Zhao:family name; Shu: given name).

From the last dev diary:

We're aware it isn't quite accurate to use the temple name during their lifetime, but we decided it was the best course of action given that we need the names to be both consistent and recognizable.
 
Silk road is not disabled without horse lords,you just can't build trade posts in it,but there is still a sizeable bonus.
The Silk Road will be unlocked by JD as well.

All I want to know is if we can play as the Western Protectorate.
You will not be able to play as the Western protectorate - it acts similarly to the Papal title, it's used for tracking what China does and is unsuitable for play. You are free to play as vassals under it though, and there's also going to be other Chinese-cultured characters you can play throughout the ages (Plenty in the Tarim Basin in 769, and several under the Mongols in later start dates - for example). :)

Will it be possible for China to spawn a female emperor like Wu Zetian?
Yes, though the chance is exceedingly low.

Wait the minute! What wrong with the picture, look closely, the building is European architectures?
And what kind of flag is it, Chinese didn't use that kind of flag, did you guys watch Chinese movie?
The picture is of Chinese emissaries carrying tribute outside of China. It doesn't suit this event and will be replaced whenever we have all the final event pictures delivered, we just use it as a placeholder in the meantime. :)