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Zinegata

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Oct 11, 2005
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  • Age of Wonders III
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
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  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
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  • Prison Architect
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  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
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  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
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  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Leviathan: Warships
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  • Victoria 2
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A lot has been said about the gameplay issues of Steel Division - many of which are untrue or at best subjective - but comparatively little effort has been made by the community to understand the game from an experiential perspective rather than a mechanical one.

And what I mean by that statement is this: Games are not just a collection of mechanics (e.g. veterancy, armor penetration, etc). Games, especially real-time ones, are experiences where you can in fact observe and track a player's engagement and enjoyment over the course of a match. The emotional highs and lows of gameplay over the course of a match is often referred to as a game's pacing, and the failure to study this aspect for Steel Division (and Wargame, which has almost the same pacing issues) is a big reason why the game "feels off" for many players particularly for its multiplayer matches.

To serve as a baseline, let me elaborate on the general pacing structure of a Starcraft match - which has a pacing structure very similar to most traditional RTS games. Each Starcraft match begins with a player only having a handful of workers. They will spend the first few minutes trying to build up, and perhaps engage in a few (often critical) skirmishes - ones that are often timed to occur where one player has an advantage over the other. At some point, a major engagement will occur that will decisively shift the balance of the match to one player or another. The game then typically ends at this point in favor of the victor of the engagement, as the loser typically surrenders. If the loser doesn't surrender, what results is often just a few minutes of clean-up/mopping up by the victor where the final outcome is never in doubt.

Hence, the pacing of a typical Stacraft match is a build-up to a climax. It starts off relatively simple and unexciting (a couple of workers, no combat) before building up to skirmishes and then possibly to huge full-scale battles at full population. After the "climax" engagement, the game typically ends due to a surrender as what follows is just boring clean-up.

By contrast, Steel Division and Wargame do not follow this pacing structure.

Instead, SD and WG matches both tend to start very strong - because each player is generally given a large pool of actual combat units to start with. This potentially leads to large skirmishes or even full-scale battles being fought within minutes of the start of the match.

The problem is that the match very often becomes downhill from an emotional/experiential perspective from there.

After the initial engagements are fought and the majority of the starting units are lost, one or both sides are now forced to wait for reinforcements to arrive. The problem is that these reinforcements only arrive as a trickle and at a constant rate, forcing players to endure long periods of camping to build up, or to commit their forces piecemeal. Players are thus forced to wait and hope they could regain the "magic" of the first few minutes where they fought substantial battles - and in many cases could end up disappointed because they aren't really able to mass up to that level again.

Compare and contrast this to the middle of a Starcraft match, especially between experienced players. The rate of reinforcement at the mid-game doesn't remain a tiny trickle. Indeed, the reinforcement rate tends to accelerate mid-match as early game economy investments boom and produce a huge surplus of resources to allow the mass deployment of units.

To be fair, Steel Division tries to resolve this via the Phase system. In theory, the difference in income rates would allow specific Divisions to dominate at particular periods along with their equipment pool.

In practice however, the "trickle" of reinforcements throttles most of this potential. Even Divisions with very high income can only deploy one major unit every minute (e.g. a tank), and there's generally limited value to spamming less valuable units (Do you really need to deploy 12 Ersatztruppen instead of 9?).

Moreover, having Phases change at the same time for every Division removes the potential for timing attacks.

In Starcraft, each build has specific "windows" where they have an advantage over the opposition. For instance, a Zerg player might plan to attack a Terran player 12 minutes into the match because he knows that's when the Terran player is vulnerable based on the most popular build, and that failing to defeat the Terran at this point would result in the Terran player building a huge economy that would inevitably crush the Zerg. The Terran player by contrast might decide to forgo the usual build - anticipating the 12-minute attack by the Zerg - and instead go for an all-or-nothing bunker rush at the start of the match. It's this constant play vs counterplay of various builds based on timing attacks that has kept Starcraft fresh despite being a 20 year old game.

Steel Division unfortunately falls very short of this, largely because "timing" advantages due to the phases are negated by the opposition getting their new toys at the exact same time. 12th SS getting a Tiger E in Phase B has a lot less impact if the Scots also start deploying their 17 pounders. Indeed, it's notable that the "super units" with the most impact - like the 12th SS Firefly - are the ones that exist in Phase A where their "counter" units may not be available yet; which again frontloads most of the excitement in the game.

Finally, the imposition of a game timer puts pressure on players to refrain from quitting until the end of the match. The problem here is that it also tends to prolong the agony of a match that's clearly already lost. In SC by contrast going "GG" is acceptable for a simple reason - you don't want players to feel beat down after a match. You want them to be ready to play another round - either because they want to win again or they want to avenge a loss.

In summary, RTS games typically have a pacing structure that builds to a climax. The game starts a little slow but builds up to a very exciting climax that involves a big battle. The game then typically ends very quickly after the big battle as there's no point to playing the rest of the match which turns into a mop-up operation.

Steel Division and RD by contrast frontloads all of the excitement at the start. You get a big battle immediately that often involves some super units that are hard to counter. It then all goes downhill as the match turns into turtling to build up or piecemeal deployment of units. Worse the matches are encouraged to "go the distance" even if one side or another is already clearly winning. This is the very opposite of the typical RTS model where a match ends on a climax.
 
Interesting idea. So are you suggesting smaller starting points + larger timed payments or a COH2 style territorial income system coupled to victory points or what?
 
Interesting idea. So are you suggesting smaller starting points + larger timed payments or a COH2 style territorial income system coupled to victory points or what?

There are very many ways to make the pacing more climactic rather than anti-climactic. My intent here is to make people think more about this aspect of the game rather than the forum's tendency of retreading specific mechanics (e.g. veterancy) over and over that doesn't actually do much to fix the core anti-climactic pacing of the game. Veterancy for instance might make certain Divisions better or specific cards more broken. Having an anti-climactic pacing however means you have a lot fewer people willing to put up with the game in the first place. The latter is far more damaging than the former.

I would also note that any "fixes" to the pacing would involve quite a radical redesign, which may not go over well with players who are invested in mastering the current mechanics. That's why I limited the discussion first to showing that the problem exists, rather than discussing solutions that could work to fix it.
 
These are the exact reasons I love Steel Division and have found a renewed interest in Wargame: European Escalation (after having played years of StarCraft). So what you are saying is subjective, like the rest of them. I stopped liking the strict timing pressures and set build orders of StraCraft 2. I find Steel Division more dynamic and harder to predict. It's kind of like a card game; you build your deck and then decide how and when you want to play certain cards.
 
Just about SD, your observations are intresting. However, I disagree to some points.
First, your analysis lacks take incount of the major game mode for what SD was designed: conquest. Due to the frontline system, this mode add plasticity to the game, at the different of RD and in a minor way to Starcraft, the main battles could appear nearly everywhere on the map, mobility is a key-feature into SD gameplay. Accordingly, when your Tiger is blocked by a migthy 17pdr you just have to relocate it or to counter the 17pdr whit the appropriat unit.
Then, your minimizing the importance to build-up an attack force in SD and RD, as in Starcraft, to enforce the frontline.
Finally, hopefully that SD is not Starcraft. It will be boring if every STR are Starcraft/C&C-like.
 
Was a good read, I don't think you should stick to just starcraft but it is a good example of pacing.
Not to mention the music in Starcraft in the first few minutes can reflect the idea behind accelerating pacing.
Something Wargame still had, but is more and more disliked by a large part of the community.

You can't say a problem does exist, as you did say it's quite subjective issue. Maybe you are overstating importance of pacing or you just trying to find something too complain about instead of playing.

Sorry , but maybe you do have good points. C&C, and literally every base building had tech to unlock and ways to progress. It also was usually never fixed and was up to the player to choose the path, and also makes for a lot of strategy deciding whats safe and whats worth the investment at any paticular time in a match.

I noticed there is much more come back potential in BroodWar. With Army trades being more the focus late game than the economy. Which is a fundamental difference in SCII I think and also is kinda like wargame in that respect. BroodWar still has a player base after 20 years, so maybe he is on to something but I do have a bias to this idea of pacing, as I have also experienced it in almost every RTS game I have played. I think this is just the mechanics and how much more micro focused the game is, maybe anouther factor is the unit cap however. With Starcraft if you have the infrastructure and bank you can rebuild a whole army in just a few seconds as zerg excluding things like Ultras as usually that's a late game thing it forces you to use it instead of sitting back on a maxed out army.

Although that is kinda off topic but the reason I mention is it is fundamentally different than having an steady trickling income most games you part of the challenge is to find your tempo, or at least do something to get more income. Almost all base builders will have pacing because of pre reqs and resource collection ext. In a game like Black and White, you have to build a small town. You can gather stuff yourself (typically you must early and make sure to plant trees :), but it's nice when it starts too automate itself so you can focus on your army and defending your settlements and what have you.

Some games like Act of Aggression use Defcon or "black ops" and Shield and Sword doctrines to implement pacing. It works well and it's nice and asymetrical. However it's raelly up to the player if it's worth the investment. Something that would be cool in Steel Division is buying your way into the next phase lets say. So if you stay on Phase A too long you might lose the ground you gained and now are dealing with a few Heavy tanks, and you are lacking 17 pdr.
Although that is pretty much a way to slow pacing but also introduce more openings for timing pushes. Right now in SD you really can only save up so early for the next phase before you start getting out numbered and you still need to get reinforcements to the front once it hits the next phase.

However Starcraft has chance to mine out so you actually have that force that slows the pacing down as well. Wargame it's pretty much your availability and supplies. The guy with an extra fob could do a lot later depending. Although it could be expanded on I am sure to make late game play different. SD phases pretty much do that except they happen at the exact same time for both players so I feel there is something lost there that could of added more depth to the strategy.

DoW uses an Escalation system, it scales the income you get and slowly ramps up. However it's fixed % increase to the amount of base income you have from the resource generating nodes you built.. On fixed points.

C&C you'd need to collect resources and build a base before you could do anything, (or sell your Cc)
However this may be why C&C 4 maybe got a bunch of heat, introducing mobile Commands. It was new and cool but people also gave a lot of heat too the progression and unit unlocks 'outside' the game itself even I think there was a pay wall to some units. Generals 2 never really got going, I was hyped when I saw trailer on Frostbyte engine. Than I learned they were going Free to Play, which just ment it was going to have unit unlocks like C&C4.

You know what games don't have accelerating pacing, Chess. However the only 'reinforce' you get is pawn promotion so there is quite a tempo in chess and the board gets more and more open as the game progresses. Which is a form of Pacing.

SD does have pacing, however it seems arbitrary to me as every division has it different and it's set in stone.

I think the OP using Starcraft as an example for a 'standard' in RTS games having pacing. However I am trying to think of games with no pacing, It's kinda hard. All I can think of is something like Roller coaster Tycoon 2 or better yet Men of War, has really limited pacing. It's just a timer till you can deploy later units, each unit has a timer. I not really sure how the points trickle in but I can understand the supply cost units have as a 'standard' game maxes at 100. In Roller Coaster Tycoon when you start a scenario and your park is already built you pretty much are thrown right into it you can increase the park revenue but the increase is marginal at best, and if you have a loan it's actually kinda 'anti-climatic' Although I remember it being quite fun and those parks being really well built with room to build your own rides.

I am sure there are games out there, Strategy games that don't have a typical pacing. However almost every Base Builder will have some sort of pacing. The Decisions you make get more and more complicated usually in later stages in the game. Where Early it's more like a plan you set in motion that should be adapted to your opponents plan. At least that's how it plays out in Star Craft. Cheese is a big part of some RTS, some games try make cheese hard. Almost always Early or a timing push which starts to blur the lines between cheese and a 'legit' attack. Cheese can lead to slowing opponents to follow up with more aggression as well which is one of the reasons game can be fresh.

I have good memories of me and my friend playing 1v1 in SC. He cannon rush me, and transition to void ray rush he liked double cheese. We also in team games took majority of our starting drones and attacked all one dude with them. Although in the new expansion it's not easy to cheese as game starts faster paced with more workers. While brood war has more cheese with less workers to start.

Wargame and Steel division would be hard to cheese if you only had light units early and a limited income. Or on contrary high income and ways to respond to every threat early.

Availability played a big part in Wargame but most of the time you made sure you wouldn't run out. ALB changed it quite a bit for the better, you could run 100% dry and the late game would be a lot different of a game where more deployment points don't matter anymore at a certain point.
 
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I'll say something: 10v10.

Fun and playability are why people play it...and loss of a certain element of both of those due to the reduction of the game from 40 to 30 mins is a bit of a topic within the 10v10 crowd at the moment. It's been a bit unpopular, and very much something of a surprise.

Anyone know why it happened?
 
Interesting read. Thanks for the feedback(s.)

You should probably ask for some context about this:

The problem is that the match very often becomes downhill from an emotional/experiential perspective from there.

After the initial engagements are fought and the majority of the starting units are lost, one or both sides are now forced to wait for reinforcements to arrive. The problem is that these reinforcements only arrive as a trickle and at a constant rate, forcing players to endure long periods of camping to build up, or to commit their forces piecemeal. Players are thus forced to wait and hope they could regain the "magic" of the first few minutes where they fought substantial battles - and in many cases could end up disappointed because they aren't really able to mass up to that level again.
 
can climaxes be achieved without objectives/research/unit caps? Feel free to provide some examples if you think they can.

I share your concern about pacing, but from the opposite viewpoint. The first 14 minutes have little to keep you in the game. Thanks to orders in deployment and anaemic speed of all units, deployment bleeds into phase A, making it feel agonisingly long. What hurts even more is that it is both the most important phase in the game, and the one that offers the least choice. By contrast in Wargame, the opening and deployment are very distinct. Wargame has more second-to-second decisions thanks to its flow of income, and that keeps you engaged.
 
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I can add from myself, that what I find unique and entertaining about SD is exactly it's pacing. I'm really bored with all those RTS games that are fast paced and are won mostly by APM. There are just to many of them on the market and all are the same when it comes to pace. I was bought by SD being slow - it really enables you to use your brain rather than muscle memory. This is unique. But this is only my personal preference.
 
Interesting read OP.

What i find most important about RTS games is possibility of comebacks. This is what really let my emotions fly when i Play multiplayer. Doesn't matter if I am losing or winning in the end. I find it fascinating and motivating when you cannot be sure who is the winner in the end despite of one Player having the map control or the lead. I am playing SD in the Moment as well as DoW 3, but in both games (which have Problems with activity of Players) the possibilities to come back after being dominated (or lets say losing the first battles) seems very limited. (I am not claiming too be very good in one of the games). It seems to be set in Stone after a few fights who will be the winner and that takes the excitement from me.

A game i loved in Terms of Coming back possibilites was C&C: Red Alert 3. There was always a way too start sneaky attacks on the dominant Player and hide away and build back up. Keeping the other Player busy and slowly destroying his economy.

Edit: i find the pacin in sd good as it is. Doesn't have to be like in other rts imo.
 
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Interesting read OP.

What i find most important about RTS games is possibility of comebacks. This is what really let my emotions fly when i Play multiplayer. Doesn't matter if I am losing or winning in the end. I find it fascinating and motivating when you cannot be sure who is the winner in the end despite of one Player having the map control or the lead. I am playing SD in the Moment as well as DoW 3, but in both games (which have Problems with activity of Players) the possibilities to come back after being dominated (or lets say losing the first battles) seems very limited. (I am not claiming too be very good in one of the games). It seems to be set in Stone after a few fights who will be the winner and that takes the excitement from me.

A game i loved in Terms of Coming back possibilites was C&C: Red Alert 3. There was always a way too start sneaky attacks on the dominant Player and hide away and build back up. Keeping the other Player busy and slowly destroying his economy.

Edit: i find the pacin in sd good as it is. Doesn't have to be like in other rts imo.

Ok...i feel the opposite. There are ways to come back in SD, that make's it realistic.
 
I'll say something: 10v10.

Fun and playability are why people play it...and loss of a certain element of both of those due to the reduction of the game from 40 to 30 mins is a bit of a topic within the 10v10 crowd at the moment. It's been a bit unpopular, and very much something of a surprise.

Anyone know why it happened?

No idea why and still wondering here. Literally nobody I know is playing 10v10s anymore and it's not because they don't want to. The OP makes some good points and I would like to relate that to the 10v10 situation. He says that the initial rush and pacing is lost compared to other games, I say it's not and especially in 40 minute 10v10s. You can build for a counter attack over time that allows you to amass another 500+ point attacking group to check the line ahead of you, instead of just pulling out single units to fill in holes. Now we are restricted to just stemming the tide of the extremely aggressive A/B phases that never get to see the potential of half the units in the game now. I am frustrated with this change and everyone I play with is too. Make 10v10s great again.
 
WiC had a pretty small unit cap, but once you lost those units the points would start flowing again.
Part of the problem in that game was the call in units from air drops.. Did not effect the unit cap so you save those and waste the reinforcing units made more for an annoying part of the game. Where you'd be dropping Sheridan and saving them all game and putting paratroopers in the trees by their back lines calling in artillery all game. Than your main force was just rolling around trying to trade well.

Losing everything for nothing should be bad though, as even if the opponent doesn't get much more point income they maybe will have a force ready to counter attack. If you lose lots of time and you won't get your points back instantly if it want less incentive to being over defensive. Maybe instead of a hard unit cap maybe you just get less points for having more units alive. It would act as a comeback mechanic, and stop a leading player from snow balling which is a problem in Wargame and several other RTS games. It could also stop the issue in an even match of the map being so saturated it would just be WWI pushing and enough artillery on both sides to drain all supplies.
It would encourage using units you can afford to lose also bringing in more specific choice making in what units you are deploying not just to spend all income as fast as possible. However you don't wanna lose everything at once. It would be encouraging taking risks hopefully if your not making moves the income would slow down hopefully encouraging players too making more moves and counter play.

Problem with this , is the game could be way to even and you may see more ties and stale mates . Maybe with frontline it would work just fine.
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If Income would slow down but never end, you still would want to preserve units and reduce losses. However if you have chance to take land you will be more willing to take it and it would actually reward the player giving a bit more income to both sides. So the more aggressive both sides play.. The fast the whole game could play out. If you have a bad start I could see the tall spot on the left representing the come back and more maybe emotional "hope" and chance that you can hold in there and slow the advance and recover from your losses faster than your opponent would. It's also a good way to challenge players to keep playing, instead of taking serious losses and than just having to fight a uphill and destruction would be the worst as if you lost income it would just snow ball with little to no chance of comeback.
 
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Not a problem to snow ball? or this kind of forgiving reinforcement not stop snow balls? The way I see it a few problems can come out of this. I'll be it some maybe not so bad in some ways and some silly, some I maybe I havn't thought of. However a lot of it would rely on momentum. If you trade well but don't take advantage of the losses you inflicted the enemy will regain strength faster so you will actually have to press your advantage sooner to make the most of it. Also though you will get closer to their spawn so even if you have more income your units wont all be involved. I could see players able to make massive hard to destroy armies all at the same time and if they hit a critical mass and the other is still growing that could be a snow ball for sure.

A immersion problem with this is Artillery I'd imagine availability would have to be pretty limited or else players would drain the shells than just sacrifice them to get more units out. Maybe try to use a secondary weapon on the vehicle but it would be more beneficial than resupplying unless it was your last artillery piece. Line infantry and Reserves could also get availability buffs,although you might see some 'spam' of them if this was the case.

Snow balling isn't really a 'problem' but I've lost a fair number where you are fighting uphill right. The opponent will have an easy time on more units and potentially income after the opening. So you will have to try to makeup for it and sometimes the leading player can just force you into offensives anyway which makes it really hard to come back if they play safe and smart you have a very hard battle depending what the objective is. I played a battle in ALB recently I can share a replay, our income was close to even all game, but it was destruction on Gol. He got a early kill lead and did a fighting retreate all game using lots of Mi-7. Conquest I'd have zone in center but it's not on the destruction version However I would of been forced to push as deep either (which I didn't do quickly or agressive enough and ran out of time)

Lots of RTS have a snowball mechanic, the Conquest mode in RD actually helped comeback. However was more unforgiving to taking losses than this would be. Resulting in maybe more careful play. Which nothing wrong with it, however it can make still harder to have more comebacks as both players will get reinforcements at roughly the same rate. The player that lost more in opening will have a smaller force but it really all depends on positions and how much is focused where if you are to make a attack after taking losses. Which if like above if you took losses the player losing can keep throwing units at you , which if they do it well can result in them having a big of momentum to maybe turn the battle around. It would be a bit more focused on who wills it. Depending but it might encourage some people to do more all in openings like pushing everywhere they can at once at attempting to keep momentum.
 
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I always found it interesting that the most exciting part of wargame was the very beginning, but I also thought it was dumb in a lot of ways because there's literally no way to scout an opening in a way that gives you time to do anything about it. In other RTS games, part of the point of having bases to build is so someone else can scout them and have an inkling as to what's going on- to force players to give tells. Once the game develops, it gets stagnant at times because the income kind of works against crescendoes of action.

The old 1984 mod for ALB had an interesting system where you got your points in a lump sum every five minutes, which might be worth an experiment.