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Their supposed disadvantages are average phase A income and something like weakness to superheavy tanks.

However their fire support like m20, 107mm and other things like rgr support, the gun halftrack are effective and bring much more to the table and early in the game, too. Plus the obvious early game advantage is so much easier to leverage in the long run.

Lorraines are good to counterbattery mortars (and generally shell enemy location) because they have a huge HE value. Problem is that they come wtih 21 pzdiv or 716 inf and 2inf will win vs both of these easily. Also when using arti dont forget to shift queue a bunch of targets before you micro elsewhere.

Generally, heavy mortars are the most effective arti in the game (DPS per cost, accuracy and reaction time wise) but they will lose to any long ranged or tracked counterbattery.

PS you obviously want to play 352 or 716 or Luftlande to counterbattery and destroy a 107 mortar in A. You just cant let it live or be effective.
 
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Their supposed disadvantages are average phase A income and something like weakness to superheavy tanks.

However their fire support like m20, 107mm and other things like rgr support, the gun halftrack are effective and bring much more to the table and early in the game, too. Plus the obvious early game advantage is so much easier to leverage in the long run.

Lorraines are good to counterbattery mortars (and generally shell enemy location) because they have a huge HE value. Problem is that they come wtih 21 pzdiv or 716 inf and 2inf will win vs both of these easily. Also when using arti dont forget to shift queue a bunch of targets before you micro elsewhere.

Generally, heavy mortars are the most effective arti in the game (DPS per cost, accuracy and reaction time wise) but they will lose to any long ranged or tracked counterbattery.

PS you obviously want to play 352 or 716 or Luftlande to counterbattery and destroy a 107 mortar in A. You just cant let it live or be effective.

Why does 21st panzer or 716 lose to 2inf easily? 2 inf has very weak AT and does not deal well with massed fire support and the tons of MLRS that the 21st Panzer has, I have beaten 2nd inf players before by simply containing them in their expected town camp and then artying everything with rockets and lorraines until he capitulates. 716 can also easily beat 2nd inf, stack your reserve infantry along the frontline and dot IG18's and lorraines everywhere
 
Biggest issue of the game imo. I hate the arty spam because it´s skillless and it´s no fun to bring in arty and just point anywhere. I waste often my time with bringing in counter arty to do the same dumb clicking on a point. Instead of good tactic gameplay opponents often bring one arty after the other in and I have to counter it.
It´s so much boring and pointless to waste time and credits with arty gameplay instead of having a good ground fight. Even air is more interesting to counter.
In most cases I win the game because the enemy have simply not enough points after placing 9 pieces of arty+bombers against my ground troops, but after the win I feel frustrated and the win is not rewarding because it was 40 minutes of bad gameplay.
Arty is unrealistic precise and too effective so players, especially with low or no skill take as much as possible to get kills without danger of loosing troops.
I play usually only 352. Infantry because it has the best counter-arty on axis side and if I meet someone that think it´s cool to waste 40 minutes with dumb clicking on targets I can counter his crap. I would like to play the 17th but if you meet someone with a division which has long range arty you can only watch your stuff gets killed, thanks to the new update now also in phase C. Just lame and no fun at all.
 
Biggest issue of the game imo. I hate the arty spam because it´s skillless and it´s no fun to bring in arty and just point anywhere. I waste often my time with bringing in counter arty to do the same dumb clicking on a point. Instead of good tactic gameplay opponents often bring one arty after the other in and I have to counter it.
It´s so much boring and pointless to waste time and credits with arty gameplay instead of having a good ground fight. Even air is more interesting to counter.
In most cases I win the game because the enemy have simply not enough points after placing 9 pieces of arty+bombers against my ground troops, but after the win I feel frustrated and the win is not rewarding because it was 40 minutes of bad gameplay.
Arty is unrealistic precise and too effective so players, especially with low or no skill take as much as possible to get kills without danger of loosing troops.
I play usually only 352. Infantry because it has the best counter-arty on axis side and if I meet someone that think it´s cool to waste 40 minutes with dumb clicking on targets I can counter his crap. I would like to play the 17th but if you meet someone with a division which has long range arty you can only watch your stuff gets killed, thanks to the new update now also in phase C. Just lame and no fun at all.
What you say makes no sense. What do you do with some divisions against german emplacements? Long range Mgs, better long range infantry, IG 18, high ap at guns or 88's. You are forced to bring artillery to combat that. So no not only low or no skillers bring artillery, everyone with half of a brain would bring artillery to counter that.

Edit: Also people who play 352nd after this patch and complain about certain things are not to be taken serious.
 
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Oh yah and eating shit from an uncounterable SK18 battery was super fun. Even more so that AA is actually lethal so you can't bomber train it.

Not many allied divisions get heavy mortars in A, and when B rolls around you can get destroyed by the Axis rocket artillery. Most "long range" arty takes a long time to shoot and isn't accurate. Meaning just counter his heavy 1600m range mortars with fk18s at 2km range.
 
Oh yah and eating shit from an uncounterable SK18 battery was super fun. Even more so that AA is actually lethal so you can't bomber train it.

Not many allied divisions get heavy mortars in A, and when B rolls around you can get destroyed by the Axis rocket artillery. Most "long range" arty takes a long time to shoot and isn't accurate. Meaning just counter his heavy 1600m range mortars with fk18s at 2km range.

I've exactly the same argument but within the german side. Yesterday i've played the 17th SS and was against a canadian player, as they removed the SK18 from the deck, you have only FK18 and nebelwerfer to arty and they don't have the range to match up with sextons (2000m against 2400m, plus as sextons are vehicles fk18's don't do any shit to them anyway). I did had a rough time with counter-battery and these sextons were also killing all my infantry during phase B and C and i couldn't do anything about it. My only choice was a JUG87G and obviously it was impossible to get to target with enemy AA or GRW 120mm mortar which isn't a vehicle and has only 1600m range. Good luck counter battery with it. These sextons were impossible to counter. I did not, they were alive at the end of the game.

They've maybe cancelled some arty spam with this new patch but they've precisely created what you said.
 
17th vs Canadian is a hard matchup. However you can't counter SParty with static. In fact SParty IS the counter to static. SK18 offered no counter because you couldn't reach it with anything but plane trains.

That was the issue with the SK18. No division had ANY counter. There are axis divisions that have SParty to fight Allied ones. Yours didn't.

What I'm getting at is example: 2nd ID doesn't have a real counter to panthers. That doesn't mean panthers are OP or that we should remove them because 15th scots has vetted 17 pdrs that handle them well. IF 17 pounders and fireflies didn't exist in any division, and panthers had no real counter then it's an issue.
 
I disagree, when you fire with static SK18 you may at least conduct to panick and you have the range over sextons. You can't counter really but you make time. They have to relocate. They are not constantly harassing.
Now, i'd say you just don't have any unit within the 17thSS to do anything to them sextons.

I agree SK18 has no counter with its 4000m range but how many are still existing in the 352nd deck when the one in the 17th SS is removed?
All the other decks have arty vehicles or arty units with range and/or power (Wespe, hummel, lorraine, pzh. 39, sk18)., pretty much the same with every allied deck (except maybe the 6th airborne or the 101st aiborne but both have the sky with their planes to counterbalance). With the 17thSS there is nothing left to do anything against sextons, you have only 4 cards of planes. You'll struggle against any player with one arty vehicle protected by AA and firing at 2400m against you, and if the player is good he'll prevent you to do any push with infantry, stugs and will support his own pushes with his arty.

I could be wrong but i i felt the same as you did with the no countered sk18. But within the 17thSS, sk18 was if i'm not mistaken a phase C card and 352nd infantry still has these phase B sk18 right now.
And you may bring sextons with 2400m range in phase B, in some allied decks even in phase A. As you may have them in phase B not even phase C and the late end game like sk18's in 17thSS, sextons have a huge advantage to benefit from.
And i agree, all is about range, even a panther needs to be at 1200m to fire and you have the ability to bring something like the 17 pounder to shut it down or planes more close to your front. My point is i couldn't find any solution with the 17thSS to counter two sextons brought early phase B. If someone tell me i'm missing something i'd very glad to hear a strategy, cause i had none.
To me that's unbalance.
It's not just certain divisions may have middle solutions, it is just here you can't do shit.
 
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I'd precise i'm speaking about a 3vs3 team play when i did only have a third of Odon map with a 3rd Canadian player against me. 17thSS has probly more chance to do something in 1vs1 with his spread infantry and nebels as sextons canno't be everywhere at once. Even with his 4 card of planes if AA isn't everywhere. But there there was nothing i could do, i didn't lost ground but i couldn't do shit and we only won due to my teamates in their parts.
 
Allies have the ability to fast move their self propelled guns into range, using smoke to cover sight lines if you really have to try hard. Axis have this too, but it's limited to the armored battle groups. Now axis infantry units are hard countered by default it feels like, and still have to deal with the armor situation. Planes being mitigated was a good thing, but now options for attacking indirect fire is limited and difficult.
 
Id rather we try increments. I'm still not a fan of the SK18, however I'm way more interested to see how it does with only one division. Sort of a unicorn if you will. No point in Overnerfing things.

IMO the issue is you played a mediocre deck versus one of the best. Your advantages are hard to use against 3rd Canadian deficiencies. The SK18s may have helped panick the Sextons true. I believe the answer is more about making other parts of 17th SS better.
 
Allies have the ability to fast move their self propelled guns into range, using smoke to cover sight lines if you really have to try hard. Axis have this too, but it's limited to the armored battle groups. Now axis infantry units are hard countered by default it feels like, and still have to deal with the armor situation. Planes being mitigated was a good thing, but now options for attacking indirect fire is limited and difficult.

Yes, I did push the river at the end with stugs and marders, but it was precisely the end, in the last 5 minutes. It is not your first move whith a map full of treelines to say the least.


Id rather we try increments. I'm still not a fan of the SK18, however I'm way more interested to see how it does with only one division. Sort of a unicorn if you will. No point in Overnerfing things.

IMO the issue is you played a mediocre deck versus one of the best. Your advantages are hard to use against 3rd Canadian deficiencies. The SK18s may have helped panick the Sextons true. I believe the answer is more about making other parts of 17th SS better.

Sure, i agree, but you know you do not choose your map in 1vs1 nor you choose your opponent in teamplay. 17thSS was good for this part of Odon (town and woods) and he managed well his phase A. That was too overwhelming to make sens.
If you look 352nd, 716th, 3rd Fallshirmjager or 91st Luftlande, they all have decent arty or planes, sometimes both. 17thSS becomes the only one not able to get air superiority nor arty superiority. And with armor you have stugs 4 or marders, everything else is slow infantry or support.
 
Against 2nd US Inf, a combination of bombers and couter battery fire works fine, at least in phase A and mid phase B.
After that, AA is too strong and you can only rely on counter fire with your long range arty.

Of course this depends on the opposed German division.
 
The 352nd gets the SK18 because without it it would just be a very mediocre 716th infantry div, if your opponent already has the means to establish a frontline and call in 150 point arty units then you're probably getting beat badly.
 
The 352nd gets the SK18 because without it it would just be a very mediocre 716th infantry div, if your opponent already has the means to establish a frontline and call in 150 point arty units then you're probably getting beat badly.

Not badly, it was even, 3rd canadian has the ability to make you struggle with his stormtroopers + mortars within forests with a ram. Jut enough to get B and get his sexton.
And again it was not 1vs1, you don't have to bring that much infantry to hold the line, what's usually delaying some big expense like a sexton.
 
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That is what I was getting at. It wasn't a dig at you. If you are going to play 17th SS, you just have to know they are not a super strong deck. Meaning if you get paired up against a strong one like 101st or 3rd Canadian, it will be difficult because your division strengths have a hard time exploiting 3rd Canadian weaknesses. IMO that is mainly their limited tanks and AT tabs. You only have stugs if you *theoretically* managed to wipe out his few ATGs. You would have to rely on your pak 40s and 43s to kill off his TDs. That is difficult if he is using his sextons to out do you. Your infantry will more than likely lose to his. You really only have Nebel advantage and you need to *somehow* neutralize his AA net and allow your more numerous Air tab to work him over.

Its not easy so I feel you there, but the answer isnt SK18. Better players probably have a good idea on what to make 17th SS competitive.
 
That is what I was getting at. It wasn't a dig at you. If you are going to play 17th SS, you just have to know they are not a super strong deck. Meaning if you get paired up against a strong one like 101st or 3rd Canadian, it will be difficult because your division strengths have a hard time exploiting 3rd Canadian weaknesses. IMO that is mainly their limited tanks and AT tabs. You only have stugs if you *theoretically* managed to wipe out his few ATGs. You would have to rely on your pak 40s and 43s to kill off his TDs. That is difficult if he is using his sextons to out do you. Your infantry will more than likely lose to his. You really only have Nebel advantage and you need to *somehow* neutralize his AA net and allow your more numerous Air tab to work him over.

Its not easy so I feel you there, but the answer isnt SK18. Better players probably have a good idea on what to make 17th SS competitive.
the stug are too expensive to be competitive and their lack of faust hurts. it feels like the stug's gun range used to be 1200m but got nerfed down to 1000m without a price decrease.
(meanwhile the m10 feel like a 1000m range unit that got buffed to 1200m without a price increase)

the 716 should really be the arty king in the game with access to the sk18. Their abysmal tank selection certainly warrant it.
 
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That is what I was getting at. It wasn't a dig at you. If you are going to play 17th SS, you just have to know they are not a super strong deck. Meaning if you get paired up against a strong one like 101st or 3rd Canadian, it will be difficult because your division strengths have a hard time exploiting 3rd Canadian weaknesses. IMO that is mainly their limited tanks and AT tabs. You only have stugs if you *theoretically* managed to wipe out his few ATGs. You would have to rely on your pak 40s and 43s to kill off his TDs. That is difficult if he is using his sextons to out do you. Your infantry will more than likely lose to his. You really only have Nebel advantage and you need to *somehow* neutralize his AA net and allow your more numerous Air tab to work him over.

Its not easy so I feel you there, but the answer isnt SK18. Better players probably have a good idea on what to make 17th SS competitive.

Right, my only point was to say it's even worse than before for the 17th SS as the sk18 is completely removed from the deck. Not less available or more costly, just removed plain and simple.
 
17 deck is really really BAD. i have no idea why people even take it. A bunch of super expensive and 0 vet infantry, a bunch of nebels which get plane'd or artied 24/7 and a few elite stugs thats what this div has. Really bad phase A and absolute zero vehicle play

Originally the whole idea was to sit back and nebel everything with those neb42s but this strategy only becomes viable in late phase B when stormtroopers, avres, cromwells and ab engineers have already done their job on your troops.
 
artillery .. . . .

king , . ...

XD
Artillery brings dignity to what would otherwise be an unsightly brawl