Damn, i should create a post to say i find allies have clearly an exploit with any of their divisions when they teamplay against me.
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Damn, i should create a post to say i find allies have clearly an exploit with any of their divisions when they teamplay against me.
My bad, the sFH are not Vet 1. I take that back. But 88s act like a wildcard (AA, HE, AP). I only have to allocate resource into two units, while the others have to allocate to more troops.
And ? Have you tried the deck ? Cause i've played both with and against it and it is not op.
Try to do one infantry push with the 16th infantry and their mg15, you would be surprised. As i said before, this unit looses the engagement to regular canadian rifles with one bren.
It is a very specialised deck but most of its other tabs are weak. If you do not see that, it is like your are complaining armor decks lack good infantry or infantry decks lack good armor.
What does the 16th ? It prevents the allies to do their armor push in the beginning. It forces you to smoke to get closer. It forces to ask for teamplay help to destroy 88's with conjoint artillery. It forces you to use your planes elsewhere and be less planes heavy (when there was no real counter to plane trains until late game).
It is very good overall i'd say, it does make the game interesting.
Believe it or not I use artillery to support infantry pushes. Something that is not very effective at max range so my sexton isn't always at max range. I only brought up the inferior range of the sexton because you said that the sexton can "do something" about the 16th artillery.
Yes I'm sure a max range sexton can hit 88s but at that point it's failing to be able to support my infantry which is really the reason I have the artillery and in my guards deck I only have 3 sextons since I made the deck mainly to stand against strong phase C axis decks. Also the 16 artillery doesn't even have to be pushing with the 88s. It only has to be 200 meters behind it which honestly isnt that much if you are used to using lots of mortars
My sextons have been countered by 3 arty pieces when I tried to counter battery them. Yes it can relocate quickly but by that point their arty served it's purpose. It temporarily stopped my artillery allowing their infantry to move up or for them to advance their 88s.
Yes they win a one on one engagement but I've never seen a player try to counter a sexton with a single medium caliber artillery piece. Its always multiple so i dont see the point you are making here.
16th arty doesn't need armor because it already outranges the allied arty. For an allied artillery piece to fire on it, it needs to be well within range already and at that point it can only hit one gun position.
They also have the 76.2 Soviet guns too. Useless against SPGs alone but in numbers will raise the panic bar faster than the spg can raise theirs.
You'll have to explain to me where your sexton canno't be at max range (2400m) and not be able to support in the same time your infantry trying to get past 88's range (1200m). You have your infantry between your sextons and the 88's. I'm sure you bring your sextons way too close, that's all. Let them way behind, they will not likely be targetted by enemy artillery.
Most of players never bring their arty that close to frontline 88's cause it may be targetted by everything. It is huge risk. You let your arty behind and you advance it when you want to reach some long target.
The point i'm making ? When you have 3 enemy 16th artillery pieces firing at your sexton, you have some 300 enemy points bought on the field, your sexton costs 250 and they'll not likely kill it. You'll relocate easily and start firing again. These 300 points on arty doesn't go in anything else on the frontline, not 88's, not infantry, anything.
16 th arty outranges sextons or M7 from 200m, it is no big deal. Nothing to say the least. And now 4th armored players have the ability to bring 4000m pieces if needed.
If you have no 4th armored player with you, the thing is 16th luftwaffe has to make ground with 88's, it is its valuable asset, he brings them in the frontline. You may dislocate them one by one keeping your arty at max range.
You'll giving me replays of players putting all their costly arty 200m behind their frontline 88's cause i've never seen such thing.
Zero problems with 16th crew checking in.
Make sure you have some SPGs and some 1200m range HE guns. Panic and isolate (smoke) the 88s with arty, finish off with the HE gun. Not very fun for both sides though. Have some SPAAGs against their planes, they are also very effective vs their infantry.
If I see them on a open map like Carpiquet, I just pick a deck that can do the above and pick them apart.
4th armored is perfect for this:
- phase A 105mm Sherman
- phase A SP mortar with lots of ammo
- phase A marauder will panic a 3 star 88 in one strafing run (even with 2 88s on the field shooting at it)
- hellcats can help with / chase paniced 88s and also deal with any armor
- lots of AA halftracks
- very good SPGs in B and C phase
Make sure you have some SPGs and some 1200m range HE guns. Panic and isolate (smoke) the 88s with arty, finish off with the HE gun. Not very fun for both sides though. Have some SPAAGs against their planes, they are also very effective vs their infantry.
If I see them on a open map like Carpiquet, I just pick a deck that can do the above and pick them apart.
4th armored is perfect for this:
- phase A 105mm Sherman
- phase A SP mortar with lots of ammo
- phase A marauder will panic a 3 star 88 in one strafing run (even with 2 88s on the field shooting at it)
- hellcats can help with / chase paniced 88s and also deal with any armor
- lots of AA halftracks
- very good SPGs in B and C phase
Yes. The division relies heavily on its 88s. When they go down, it will start to crumble fast. It's relatively easy to counter the 88s with mortars and Priests/Sextons.
I feel like the elite 88s are too numerous and powerful. Sure, they cost a lot, but are basically uncounterable by anything that's not artillery and hold down fields by themselves while doubling by making Allies incapable of using planes at all.
i think the only worse decks than the 16th might be the 352nd or 716th
no entirely sure tho
those flaks are not exactly a threat to sharp players
no entirely sure tho
those flaks are not exactly a threat to sharp players
Well, as stated before, you got to see the bigger picture here:
The division is good on open maps with unobstucted lines of sight but its terrible on maps with blocked LOS due to its horrible infantry tab.
It can only advance in a crawling speed since it is severly limited by the movement of the slowest, which turns out to be the most important unit, the flak 88. It can't quickly reeinforce weak points, which makes this division quite inflexible and vulnerable to flanking moves or attack/retreat pushes. On the plus side the flak is indeed a moving fortress, granting the player commanding it a steady, yet albeit slow advance (if not interrupted)
The flaks are a considerable investment, meaning the division lacks in numbers but they make up for it in quality. But this also implies that, if it needs to cover a certain stretch of the front line, there must be holes and weak points in that front line, cause you simply do not have enough units to defend everywhere properly.
The division revolves mainly around the 88's and the other units in the support section, the rest is more or less crappy overall. If you manage to negate the effectivness of the 88's you'll do pretty fine against them. If you have problems with counterbattery, try using shift commands and stack the attack and moving orders for your arty. That way you can evade counterbattery fire more or less quite well.
Overall, I'd not say that this division is op. Its quite slow, somewhat inflexible and vulnerable to arty and maneuver warfare. It has huge issues with limited LOS or wide front lines and can be easily swarmed in certain situations if you use smoke/ arty properly. On the plus side, it is quite hilarious to play against allied counterparts that rely heavily on air and try pushes over open ground against it.
The division is good on open maps with unobstucted lines of sight but its terrible on maps with blocked LOS due to its horrible infantry tab.
It can only advance in a crawling speed since it is severly limited by the movement of the slowest, which turns out to be the most important unit, the flak 88. It can't quickly reeinforce weak points, which makes this division quite inflexible and vulnerable to flanking moves or attack/retreat pushes. On the plus side the flak is indeed a moving fortress, granting the player commanding it a steady, yet albeit slow advance (if not interrupted)
The flaks are a considerable investment, meaning the division lacks in numbers but they make up for it in quality. But this also implies that, if it needs to cover a certain stretch of the front line, there must be holes and weak points in that front line, cause you simply do not have enough units to defend everywhere properly.
The division revolves mainly around the 88's and the other units in the support section, the rest is more or less crappy overall. If you manage to negate the effectivness of the 88's you'll do pretty fine against them. If you have problems with counterbattery, try using shift commands and stack the attack and moving orders for your arty. That way you can evade counterbattery fire more or less quite well.
Overall, I'd not say that this division is op. Its quite slow, somewhat inflexible and vulnerable to arty and maneuver warfare. It has huge issues with limited LOS or wide front lines and can be easily swarmed in certain situations if you use smoke/ arty properly. On the plus side, it is quite hilarious to play against allied counterparts that rely heavily on air and try pushes over open ground against it.
Struggle ? 16th Luftwaffe on Bois de Limors struggling ? If you don't automatically win against 16th Luftwaffe on Bois de Limors i don't get it. 16th Luftwaffe has nothing to go in forests and treelines, you'll ambush useless flaks between two treelines with basic infantry. I would never bring this deck on that map.
What is your win/losses ratio in multiplayer and what is the win/ratio of your opponents playing 16th luftwaffe ?
Overall W/L is 78.6%, and around 250 games played. With the 16th, 100% Win rate for the moment, roughly 15 games played if my memory doesn't fail. Enemy W/R so far has been scattered, I've encountered players with 60% W/R, some of them with 50% and lower, but I definetly had some games with people with more than 200 games played.
After playing a few bunch of games yesterday, I can confirm that Sexton and Priests can be tough to handle, but I used my Hs to counter them. I've seen that against the 3rd AD it's better to modify your air deck with more Henschels (I was previously using 2 cards of 109s of 250 kg bombs). I kept the Ju 88 with 50 kg bombs to suppress AA and big clusters of infantry/SPG/fieldguns.
The tightest game so far was at Coleville 2 v 2 1 v 1 map size against Scots and Guards while teaming up with an Eichenlaub. Phase A was quite a nightmare since 2 88s were not enough to cover all sides and I had to keep them out of sight to prevent artillery fire. The Guards did an infantry push followed by a bunch of Cromwells that managed to gain a foothold in my position. The Scots also pushed hard and kicked back the Eichenlaub. It wasn't until Phase B that we were able to push, however once we did start harassing enemies they were dropping like flies. The 25 pdr did some damage to my artillery but the Artillery Storch and Air Strikes kept them in check for the rest of the game. We sent a horde of 25 infantry units along the frontline and they were pretty much overrun because of the ridicolous amount of Infantry and 88s along the field.They didn't have any dreadful armor to stop the push and the FFs didn't really shine since there was no armor to shoot at, just a several Stuhs at the end of the game
If the map was bigger it would have played in our favor since the 88s wouldnt be packed in one place for the artillery to stun them and our numbers would have played a bigger role. Small size maps you only require a few MGs to hold a position...
EDIT: In one of the games against the 3rd AD. The enemy was using the Sherman Howitzers and using the Fire at Ground ability which we talked about in the Thread. Yes it proves useful since you are shooting the 88s while keeping yourself out of range but requires and intense amount of micro, if the tank goes forward just a few meters it gets instakilled since Vet 2 88s have 85% and above of hit. However, the firing at ground at 1205m and landing a hit when in theory your range is 1200m sharp sounds a bit dumb and unrealistic.
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Attack on position really works, with many different tactics: start aim and fire at 1220m, the shell will lands at about 1205m if 88s keep pushing. Another tactics is block the los with building, and fire some shells near him. Btw, tanks are unnecessary vs 16th most time, spend all of your points on infantry, AA, and arty it will be a easy win.
Frankly, they could have 2 cards of 88s removed in both phase B and C without impacting their competitiveness, but massively decreasing their "laming"-potential in the process.
I would get rid of one card at Phase B, and that would be enough to make the players be more cautious. In all the games I have played with the division, I never ran out of them, even in those games were the outcome was undecided.
16 is one of the best german decks. for once a good 1v1 deck i think for Germany. The income it has is ridiculous. By the end of phase B a standart 80/120 division gets 2500 points. 100/150 for 16 LW give you 3000. 500 points more.
Things about this deck:
-super income absolutely best in game;
-phase A pioneers. Because now Allies do not have an exclusive privelege of super 100m sqauds in phase A.
-maaaaybe 88 AA as an antitank weapon. Because it is available early in A and with elite status.
- minor things. Actually that phase A artillery plane is good. And russian 122 mm guns are very nice. One of the best arties. Also phase B HMG. And a veteran Hs129B3 will kill pretty much all tanks (maybe not the jumbo) with guarantees and from the front. veteran flak38 on tracks is a decent fire support in A.
its the first time i like a german deck in 1v1. But ofc canada or scots are still better.
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Asked this on another topic already, how do you come to the conclusion that it has the best income? Do you just ignore the existence of phase C?
To me the most annoying thing about the 88 is the fact that it works compeletely different than it should. It is good against fast flying fighters and kinda ok against slow bombers. It makes no sense. I should barely be able to keep up with fighters at such low level and should be good against bombers.
money is equal at about 30 minutes or so. the last 10 minutes are too little too late to influence the outcome.
late money and late artillery pieces are less effective becaues you spend them on something that only has time to work once. you have a lot of money with 150 income in C but you also have to work against the odds
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