CK2 Dev Diary #70: The Art of the East

[Federalist girl]

Kind of disappointed the art studio chose to make more Manchus:

Yikes, that's a bit troubling. That's like having Victorian or Napoleonic pictures for European countries.

There's no way that would be allowed for European art, and it's more than a little uncomfortable that it passes muster for China.

I hesitate to use the word "offensive" because of all the connotations that comes along with it, but that's honestly what it feels like.

 

[Black Turtle]

Well there's going to be a lot more Tibetan holdings on the map than Chinese ones (usually).

Which isn't to say that there shouldn't be a set of Chinese holding art but if one of them has priority it makes sense that it's the Tibetan.

True, but considering that the western protectorate is able to become a major presence at any date it's likely that there'll be a highly successful western protectorate that convert tracts of land to Taoist, Han culture at some point. It would be kind of weird seeing the super powerful Chinese presence on the map full of nomad holdings.

Yikes, that's a bit troubling. That's like having Victorian or Napoleonic pictures for European countries.

There's no way that would be allowed for European art, and it's more than a little uncomfortable that it passes muster for China.

Agreed. Tbh the more I look at the content of this DLC, the less it seems like a "China" expansion, but more of a mix of things, which is fine if it were advertised as such. I expect lots of players will buy it simply because it's called "Jade Dragon" and they want to play in China or at least a Chinese char and find it a bit underwhelming.

 

[Federalist girl]

Given that it's a map expansion into Tibet as well as an off-map China thing, I don't mind it being a "mix" of things but I would expect the stuff they add to be historically or culturally appropriate and including event art from centuries and centuries outside of the game's time period is not appropriate.

Honestly it's a stereotypical "Chinese" look from the 19th century that Westerners would've been familiar with due to colonization and immigration and that is just infuriating and not OK.

I'm usually fairly supportive of the dev team, so this is just a huge disappointment to me that this passed muster. I hope they go back to their art contractors and tell them to redo the Manchu event pics into appropriate period art.

 

[Black Turtle]

Given that it's a map expansion into Tibet as well as an off-map China thing, I don't mind it being a "mix" of things but I would expect the stuff they add to be historically or culturally appropriate and including event art from centuries and centuries outside of the game's time period is not appropriate.

Honestly it's a stereotypical "Chinese" look from the 19th century that Westerners would've been familiar with due to colonization and immigration and that is just infuriating and not OK.

I'm usually fairly supportive of the dev team, so this is just a huge disappointment to me that this passed muster. I hope they go back to their art contractors and tell them to redo the Manchu event pics into appropriate period art.

To be fair it's another studio doing the event art and not actually PDX themselves.

 

[klopkr]

Hey Is there still no shield border art for the Tibetans?

Can they at least have the chinese one for their government type?

I've said it before but I'm very much against nomad shields for the Bon faith!

 

[SchwarzKatze]

They look paler than the current Mediterranean portraits are.

 

[Black Turtle]

They look paler than the current Mediterranean portraits are.

I'm not sure anyone has ever called the current Mediterranean faces pale.

 

[Federalist girl]

To be fair it's another studio doing the event art and not actually PDX themselves.

Yeah, that's why I said contractors. But I assume Paradox has some say in whether the art passes muster, as the ones commissioning the work and all.

Anyway, I don't want to go on and on about this and annoy everyone, since I'm discussing it in another thread too.

My final word is: I am extremely disappointed and frustrated because of the pattern of stereotyping Eastern cultures and ignoring their cultural contexts, and hope it's fixed at some point. If not before JD releases (whenever that is), then afterwards is fine. I just hope it's addressed and dealt with.

 

[TheDungen]

Release is always soon™.

No Soon™ is obsolete these days it's When it's ready™

If you don't want to be rude, try not being rude.

nd

you should trade mark that one.

I hope CK3 doesn't happen. Given Paradox's track record they should just sell the IP to CA or Firaxis. I have more confidence in them than Paradox at this point.

So you want them to sell ck3 barebones and add back the same stuff in DLCs in every new installation of the game?

Both Total War and Civilization are far more successful than any of Paradox's games.

Not per investment.

CA and PDS did their games in the same periods and most people here are fans of PDS ones, not CA's. Civilization is not even the same genre, and I don't see its approach work at all in these games.
In other words, doesn't matter that they are more successful. What makes them successful is something that great many of us here don't care about.

I'm a fan of both I could easily see them learn from each other. That said, they are different and should be different.

Leaked Tibetan on-map Marshall

Spoiler

Marshall? He's clearly a spiritual advisor.

I wish they looked kinda like Ragnar Lodbrock and Floki from Vikings.

So nothing like a real viking?

So completely ahistorical and funny looking? I mean wtf is he wearing?

I hope not... Vikings is one the most ahistorical series out there... This time I have to agree with Black Turtle...

What Thure said.

Still hoping for Chinese holding art as well.

There are plenty of countries on the map that could do with their own holding pictures, as far as I know there are no Han provinces on the map in any start date so I wouldn't think it's very high priority. I could even see Han having some penatly to culture converting in general. The Taoists have super high stewardship and to keep them from making all of Tibet Han it might be a good idea.

They look paler than the current Mediterranean portraits are.

Yeah... your point being? Chinese people aren't particularly tan, even less nobility since the whole staying pale thing is sort of a mark of wealth in china (though I must admit I am unsure if that was the case in this era).

 

[Black Turtle]

Current Indian graphics:

Unique UI, unique holding art, and unique 3d building models

Spoiler: Spoiler

Current Khitan graphics and Chinese graphics as far as we know:

Uses Indian UI since Buddhist, tent cities, tent temples, and pagoda style castle with tents. I think it's rather fitting for nomads, but not really for Chinese. It's not just that the Chinese use nomad culture holdings either, the nomad cultures themselves also uses the middle eastern 3d building models.

Spoiler: Spoiler

EU4 East Asian art:

Spoiler: Spoiler

 

[Caspian Mortis]

Do Tibetans get unique city art on the map? Doesn't make much sense to use anything else.

 

[HStrachanH88]

Current Indian graphics:

Unique UI, unique holding art, and unique 3d building models

Spoiler: Spoiler

Current Khitan graphics and Chinese graphics as far as we know:

Uses Indian UI since Buddhist, tent cities, tent temples, and pagoda style castle with tents. I think it's rather fitting for nomads, but not really for Chinese. It's not just that the Chinese use nomad culture holdings either, the nomad cultures themselves also uses the middle eastern 3d building models.

Spoiler: Spoiler

EU4 East Asian art:

Spoiler: Spoiler

Jade dragon definitely should have Chinese holding art and 3D models since Indian cultures received it. I couldn't agree more. Also there are at least two provinces in 769 with Han culture judging from the streams.

 

[Black Turtle]

Jade dragon definitely should have Chinese holding art and 3D models since Indian cultures received it. I couldn't agree more. Also there are at least two provinces in 769 with Han culture judging from the streams.

They also said that the Tarim Basin will have Chinese rulers as well, which means that they'll likely culture shift in many playthroughs, especially if the Western Protectorate ends up defeating the Tibetans.

 

[HStrachanH88]

They also said that the Tarim Basin will have Chinese rulers as well, which means that they'll likely culture shift in many playthroughs, especially if the Western Protectorate ends up defeating the Tibetans.

Exactly. Not to mention most people will have a playthrough using a Chinese character and who doesn't want to see the map change to look more Chinese?

 

[persianfan247]

Exactly. Not to mention most people will have a playthrough using a Chinese character and who doesn't want to see the map change to look more Chinese?

Maybe the Chinese will simply adopt the local architecture style.

 

[Federalist girl]

There are plenty of countries on the map that could do with their own holding pictures, as far as I know there are no Han provinces on the map in any start date so I wouldn't think it's very high priority. I could even see Han having some penatly to culture converting in general. The Taoists have super high stewardship and to keep them from making all of Tibet Han it might be a good idea.

I've always found "X doesn't have it, so Y shouldn't" to be very unpersuasive -- why does one inadequacy justify another? No, there aren't Han provinces -- but the expansion is called Jade Dragon and one of the components involves Chinese exile realms in the West, etc.

It's also that it's spectacularly jarring.

Believe me, I'd love Byzantine holdings and all sorts of other holdings too, but seeing as this is the expansion for Chinese stuff, this is sort of the only real time to ask for such things.

 

[Black Turtle]

Maybe the Chinese will simply adopt the local architecture style.

How would that work? As far as I know one culture is tied to one holding art set for all cultures in the game right now. So a West African province in Ireland is going to have West African jungle holding art, and an Indian culture ruler can use elephants in Sweden. So under current CK2 rules a Chinese ruler will just have tents for a city in Ethiopia. Nomad cultures also have a semi-East Asian style castle, so it's not really blending into the culture anyways.

Actually if they could do a "cultural blend" like what you're suggesting that would be pretty cool as well. I'd actually prefer it to the current magical Icelandic elephants and Irish West African jungle cities.

Cultural blending as a gameplay mechanic would probably upend the entire CK2 culture system as we know it.

 

[TheDungen]

I've always found "X doesn't have it, so Y shouldn't" to be very unpersuasive -- why does one inadequacy justify another? No, there aren't Han provinces -- but the expansion is called Jade Dragon and one of the components involves Chinese exile realms in the West, etc.

It's also that it's spectacularly jarring.

Believe me, I'd love Byzantine holdings and all sorts of other holdings too, but seeing as this is the expansion for Chinese stuff, this is sort of the only real time to ask for such things.

Except as I understand it it is only through really nagging we ended up even getting Tibetean holding art and now you lot are nagging for chinese too? It's basically Hellenic all over again.

 

[Federalist girl]

Except as I understand it it is only through really nagging we ended up even getting Tibetean holding art and now you lot are nagging for chinese too? It's basically Hellenic all over again.

Or you know, Finno-Ugric portraits. Or South Indian portraits. Or revised Byzantine portraits. Or people demanding portraits be more white. Or... I could go on and on.

This isn't remotely similar to the Hellenic religion, which was never meant to be playable and was certainly never part of an expansion called Gods of Olympus or something. Again, during the development period of Jade Dragon is THE time to be talking about this.

It's only nagging when it's something that someone else wants, apparently.

 

[TheDungen]

Or you know, Finno-Ugric portraits. Or South Indian portraits. Or revised Byzantine portraits. Or people demanding portraits be more white. Or... I could go on and on.

This isn't remotely similar to the Hellenic religion, which was never meant to be playable and was certainly never part of an expansion called Gods of Olympus or something. Again, during the development period of Jade Dragon is THE time to be talking about this.

It's only nagging when it's something that someone else wants, apparently.

Eh no it's nagging when it's something I want to, I wanted tibetean holding pictures and I certainly took part in nagging Paradox for them. I'd love to see chinese ones but when they have decided to give in on one thing to immediately ask for more is very much what happened with hellenic. People nagged for them to be returned to the character creator and when paradox relented and returned them there they started nagging for them to be fleshed out.
I'd love to see chinese holdings but.
1. I don't think you'll get them. Especially considered the DLC originally didn't even have tibetean holding pictures slated as I understand it.
2. I think you should be careful how much and often you ask them for stuff. You may make them less inclined to listen in the future, if they know tat as soon as they grant one wish they are immediately beset with the next one.

And as a reply to blacktrurtle's now deleted post. Yes every region on the map has holding slots but china is not on the map. If it was then it should obviously have them. No more than that, I don't think paradox would for a second have considered shipping a china on the map without holding art.