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Compared to Allied divisions, where Shermans and Cromwells are very much useful and relevant. I think the problem here is less with the actual performance of the Panzer IV (although it could use a price reduction) and more so with the way armoured divisions, and armoured combat as a whole, has been designed. The Panzer IV just simply doesn't have a role to play in the Panzer Divisions, as there are better options and few targets where the Panzer IV is of actual use against.
the cromwell and sherman are still relevant because the alternative are specialized unit. howitzer tank have problem killing armor and the 76mm/17pdr have trouble against soft target.

by comparison the HE on the panther is still okay. The HE on marder, stug4, and Tiger are basically better because they go out to 1200m.

Historically the Germans under load the propellant on their HE shell to allow more room for explosive. As a result their HE round are significantly slower and use the MG scale on their optic.

By comparison allies HE and AP round have similar velocity. This also severely limit the amount of explosive in their HE shell for gun like the 17 pounder and 76mm.

This is why the panther HE are better than the HE on the firefly and 76mm.

lower the range on the HE for tiger, panther, etc, would make the panzer 4 more attractive, as well as pissing off every german player in game.
 
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When will this stop? Bloody Hell, the Panzer IV's 75mm already has a tremendous accuracy advantage over the Sherman 75mm, is that not enough? I will not talk on the notion of history since I have already delved into this far more times than I can care to remember.
The panzer 4's l/48 had a superior effective range, on par with the 76
 
Just give the PIVs price buffs. Worked for the Sherman.

I love it when Axis players cite history or data. It's nonsensical. Sure the PIV range being 1000 and not 1200 is because of balance and not history. Let's do that. PIVs get 1200 range. Cool now the German airforce doesn't exist. History right? Artillery? We can just halve that, the allies had far more and far more effective artillery. I could go on. Or you can just understand some things are subjective and therefore open to be balanced.
 
I like that Idea.

as a practical matter, the only thing the 11 AP on the sherman is really useful against are the panzer 4 or anything weaker. 10 or 11 ap It doesn't really make any difference against the cats. The 4 acc on the m4a1 is what's really crippling.

after a brain storm session:
lower p4 price to 130
standardize allies 75mm gun to 10 ap, 5acc.
increase av on cromwell and churchill IV by 1
(bunch of price adjustment for allies tank)
limit range of HE on vehicle, atg and AA (88mm) to 1000m, including the CS tank.
give the CS tank smoke.
 
Just give the PIVs price buffs. Worked for the Sherman.

I love it when Axis players cite history or data. It's nonsensical. Sure the PIV range being 1000 and not 1200 is because of balance and not history. Let's do that. PIVs get 1200 range. Cool now the German airforce doesn't exist. History right? Artillery? We can just halve that, the allies had far more and far more effective artillery. I could go on. Or you can just understand some things are subjective and therefore open to be balanced.

So... Normandy was a walk in the park for the Allies, ehh?
It's not like the Allies had all advantages to their side.

What realism means, is getting correct relations between the units and factions... but that isn't the case ingame.
 
So... Normandy was a walk in the park for the Allies, ehh?
It's not like the Allies had all advantages to their side.

What realism means, is getting correct relations between the units and factions... but that isn't the case ingame.

They didn't have all the advantages but a notion of 'realism' based entirely on penetration tables and muzzle velocity is extremely myopic, and giving the german army the limitations it had historically would make them quite weak, aside from a few battlegroups.

The Germans were definitely better at some things(I would actually make the panzer divisions better in phase A as their recon units were a lot beefier in combat capability than the allied equivalents, especially the Americans), but overall the western allies had far fewer gaps in the capabilities of their units than most of the german divisions.
 
The panzer 4's l/48 had a superior effective range, on par with the 76
Which is represented by the accuracy advantage it has in game...that is literally what represents a superior effective range. And no, the KwK40 was not on par with the M1 76.2mm in terms of effective range...
 
Which is represented by the accuracy advantage it has in game...that is literally what represents a superior effective range. And no, the KwK40 was not on par with the M1 76.2mm in terms of effective range...
actually, range is what represents effective range, and 1776zoomsnipe1911 is correct, the l/48 was on par with the 76mm.
 
actually, range is what represents effective range, and 1776zoomsnipe1911 is correct, the l/48 was on par with the 76mm.
Far from it. If we are to talk technically the KwK40's PzGr 39 is about 200mph slower than the M62 fired from the M1 76.2mm, and once we consider the PzGr 39 is a lighter projectile than the M62 (and seeing as F = M * A) I fail to see how the two systems were "on par," as you put it. But please, elaborate.
 
Could you two link to your sources so we can see them? A quick google's giving me the same muzzle velocity (790 m/s) and near-identical penetration properties, but I don't think I could stand the mockery if I cited Wikipedia as a source here. ;)

Also, physics nitpick, speed's not acceleration. You're talking momentum, mass * velocity, if you're talking about mph and mass. I'll leave the wisdom of discussing gun performance in terms of momentum to the crowd, though.
 
They didn't have all the advantages but a notion of 'realism' based entirely on penetration tables and muzzle velocity is extremely myopic, and giving the german army the limitations it had historically would make them quite weak, aside from a few battlegroups.

The Germans were definitely better at some things(I would actually make the panzer divisions better in phase A as their recon units were a lot beefier in combat capability than the allied equivalents, especially the Americans), but overall the western allies had far fewer gaps in the capabilities of their units than most of the german divisions.

Weak?
Granting the Germans Mine-Fields (S-Mines) for their lack of artillery, reducing the capability of Tactical Air-Ground-Support for the Allies (the most effective Air-Strikes in Normandy were actually mass-carpet-bombings), Granting the German side different deployment options (deploying on their whole side, while Allies will have to deploy within a small corridor along the map edge, to give the defending advantage)... would actually make a quite asymmetric, but balanceable and enjoyable game.

Far from it. If we are to talk technically the KwK40's PzGr 39 is about 200mph slower than the M62 fired from the M1 76.2mm, and once we consider the PzGr 39 is a lighter projectile than the M62 (and seeing as F = M * A) I fail to see how the two systems were "on par," as you put it. But please, elaborate.

Target-Ballistic.
 
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Weak?
Granting the Germans Mine-Fields (S-Mines) for their lack of artillery, reducing the capability of Tactical Air-Ground-Support for the Allies (the most effective Air-Strikes in Normandy were actually mass-carpet-bombings), Granting the German side different deployment options (deploying on their whole side, while Allies will have to deploy within a small corridor along the map edge, to give the defending advantage)... would actually make a quite asymmetric, but balanceable and enjoyable game.

And then you make a really convoluted game mode where it might work in 1v1 (Panzer divisions would fight meeting engagements/attack while infantry divisions would be defending) but then you hit the problem of team games unless you just make it so the Germans always defend which would be really weird to me.

Would you be willing to have a Panzer division where units will randomly be excluded because they were delayed for lack of fuel/interdiction? That honestly sounds really frustrating.
 
Would you be willing to have a Panzer division where units will randomly be excluded because they were delayed for lack of fuel/interdiction? That honestly sounds really frustrating.

That's not how it works.
An overall smaller amount of units for the German side would be correct.
If you lack fuel, you give it to the weapons and vehicles (/ divisions) you need most, thus a smaller amount of units that is operational is the result, not some random unit suddenly disappear.

Interdictions: Some German units arrive in later phases. Interdiction isn't part of the games scale, as it "happened" before the units arrives on the battlefield.
 
Far from it. If we are to talk technically the KwK40's PzGr 39 is about 200mph slower than the M62 fired from the M1 76.2mm, and once we consider the PzGr 39 is a lighter projectile than the M62 (and seeing as F = M * A) I fail to see how the two systems were "on par," as you put it. But please, elaborate.
1. the pzgr 39 could penetrate more armor than the m62
2. the projectile was not much slower than the m62, Much closer to the 76mm than the 75mm
 
Now you're cherry picking. You have so many tanks that are impervious to Shermans and American 76mm. The fact that you are hell bent on the PIV just outclassing American divisions ten fold is ridiculous.

Normandy wasn't easy but it wasn't just because of wehraboo tanks. It was the terrain that favored defenders heavily too.
 
Normandy wasn't easy but it wasn't just because of wehraboo tanks. It was the terrain that favored defenders heavily too.

Wait, wait, wait... Wehraboo?
In a game in which, except for a short 3. FschJg-Intermezzo, always Allies were on top?

And now it is Wehrabooism, when people don't want to rely on Cats?

Wow... just wow... this logic is so fricking twisted...
 
Dude, face it. The Panzer 4 has its role in the game and it kills Shermans effectively. It's not and wasn't superior to the Sherman. Use the 10000 tools you have to kill that tank. Most German 1200m tanks are even impervious to 76mm variants.

You've been screaming 1200m p4 since day 1 beta. Let it go. Your logic is flawed. You can have your ultimate super accurate ballistic PIV when your airforce tab disappears and your tiger tanks break down randomly. You don't see people screaming about railway off map considering it would seem every railway gun in Normandy would need to fire to simulate that.
 
Could you two link to your sources so we can see them? A quick google's giving me the same muzzle velocity (790 m/s) and near-identical penetration properties, but I don't think I could stand the mockery if I cited Wikipedia as a source here. ;)

Also, physics nitpick, speed's not acceleration. You're talking momentum, mass * velocity, if you're talking about mph and mass. I'll leave the wisdom of discussing gun performance in terms of momentum to the crowd, though.
No problemo
698C7F8A9BF8455BB31FE921123E7C69.jpg

Here we see a comparison of the MV of the Pak 40 and KwK 40. For those of who who do not know, 2,300 fps is about 700m/s and 2,600 is 790m/s. This is important to realize, because in game, units like the Marder 1 and Pak 40 AT gun (both of which, obviously use the Pak 40) do indeed have 1,200m range because of this far higher muzzle velocity. In contrast, guns with the KwK 40 (Panzer IV, for example) only have 1,000m range, but still benefit from its tremendous accuracy in game. The reason they do not have 1,200m range is because of the fact they fire projectiles at a much slower velocity. For comparison, we see the M1 76.2mm's performance and MV here...
3hfSSBB.png

2,600 fps again, like the Pak 40, AKA ~790m/s (not to mention being half a pound heavier than the PzGr 39), and significantly faster than the KwK 40. This is why the 76.2mm guns, and the Pak 40 should have 1,200m range, but the KwK 40 not. Furthermore, we need to be incredibly judicious about which units we hand out 1,200m range, as otherwise we encounter a scenario of power-creep where a unit must have 1,200m range to be useful, rather than having it as a unique advantage. In fact, in many ways I think we have already gone a bit too far with it and should probably either scale back the amount of units with 1,200m range, or decrease their accuracy at such range to give a greater role for the 1,000m units. As for the Panzer IV, I already said that it is well-deserving of a CP buff, along the -10 or so CP line. Give it the M4A3 75mm treatment and hopefully we will see more of them on the battlefield as a bread-and-butter tank that it always was and should become in game.
1. the pzgr 39 could penetrate more armor than the m62
2. the projectile was not much slower than the m62, Much closer to the 76mm than the 75mm
1. That is because the M62 packed a far larger charge of HE filler than did the PzGr 39, as was intended to have a far greater after-armor effect. Thus, this is comparing apples to oranges in the same way that it would not be right of me to compare the M79 shot (AP-T) to the PzGr 39 (most definitely not AP-T) and using it as a reason to lobby for even more AP on the M1 76.2mm's behalf, as it defeated more RHA than did the PzGr 39. The difference is, crews utilizing the M1 76.2mm had the option to switch between the M79 shot and M62 at will and en mass, where as the KwK 40 rarely had such a luxury.
2. The M3 75mm is not lobbying for 1,200m range though, and you utterly failed to address my point. The Pak 40 and M1 76.2mm have sufficient velocity (combined with ample weight) to be a 1,200m range weapon, the KwK 40 does not. Keep in mind 1,200m range also features a variety of weapons with higher velocity than either of these guns, such as the KwK 42 8.8cm or the M7 3-Inch. The M1 76.2mm and Pak 40 are at the threshold of 1,000-1,200m range, and the fact is they had enough to differentiate themselves from the slower KwK 40 to warrant such range.
 
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As for the Panzer IV, I already said that it is well-deserving of a CP buff, along the -10 or so CP line. Give it the M4A3 75mm treatment and hopefully we will see more of them on the battlefield as a bread-and-butter tank that it always was and should become in game.
panzer 4 have a problem where its anti-tank and anti-infantry capability are both mediocre compare to everything else on the axis team. Tiger, stug 4, jpz4, and the marder basically do everything the pz4 can do except better. Even the panther still have okay HE round that goes out to 1200m.

By comparison the allies CS tank can't engage armor and the HE on the firefly, m4a3, m10, and hellcat are underwhelming. Allies mixed their unit because their high end units are specialized.

German tanks are more well-round. although panzer 4 run into the problem of being mediocre at both.