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Mafia Mod

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ArthodGDT said:
As for the religions, there will most likely only be added one other, which will be the Protestant religion.
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What about "criminal ideology" instead of religion? You could have characters of Honorable ideology, Traditional ideology, Brutal ideology, etc.

Just an idea, because if religion will be used it'll be quite generic, all the aforementioned Italian-American families being Catholic.
 
You might be right in that @Enriador but I think ideology could also work as traits and would work as good as if it was replacing religions. Further more I (very sadly) dislike mods that replace the religion system. I just like it a bit more when there is a connection between vanilla and mods. It might just be a stubborn thing I have. Either way though, I will have to discuss this with the rest of the team.
 
HOLY CRAP, I remember this Mod from years ago on the Steam Artwork page. That is good to see it back!
 
Mobsters LARP as Catholic or other religions, and they are influenced by it, but they are hardly true to the values of their faith. I think religions should be focused around central ideologies and defining customs of the individual crime families.

For example, the Sicilian Mafia would follow the conduct/honor and family codes (Omerta?) against ratting out their members, should they ever quit the mob (etc.).
Meanwhile, Mexican Drug Cartels (which would show up in later games, such as in the sixties, seventies, and eighties) would be based around their own thing (and possibly the Patron Demon of Drug Smuggling, from the Narco-Cult movement). Then you have the Islamic crime groups exhibited in things like the Holy Land Foundation, and even white collar criminals like Enron.

I think this Mod should extend from the early twentieth century to modern times. We can cover all aspects of organized crime families and illicit syndicates in New York City. Mexican Drug Cartels are familial, many white collar criminals are familial, and heck, you could even do Political Machines having ties to the mob!
 
Religion in this Mod should encompass mob ideology and doctrine as opposed to actual organized religions. I said it well in my earlier post.

Also, scheming, seduction, and kinslaying is your choice as a player and does not speak for the Church. (Keep in mind, to be a True Christian Knight, you have to have all the Virtues, no Vices, and a clean record, so yes, characters with that Modifier really are true Christians.)
 
TurtleShroom said:
Religion in this Mod should encompass mob ideology and doctrine as opposed to actual organized religions. I said it well in my earlier post.

Also, scheming, seduction, and kinslaying is your choice as a player and does not speak for the Church. (Keep in mind, to be a True Christian Knight, you have to have all the Virtues, no Vices, and a clean record, so yes, characters with that Modifier really are true Christians.)
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I was just being glib with the True Christian Knight thing, your suggestion (as I read it) is that none of the characters in this mod can be described as Catholics (or whatever) because they are criminals. Well, there are plenty of criminals in vanilla who don't even get excommunicated if they play nice to the Pope. So this is not a reason. It doesn't matter how well you said it if you didn't provide a valid reason for it in doing so.
 
Enriador said:
What about "criminal ideology" instead of religion? You could have characters of Honorable ideology, Traditional ideology, Brutal ideology, etc.

Just an idea, because if religion will be used it'll be quite generic, all the aforementioned Italian-American families being Catholic.
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Political affiliation could also work nicely. Honour codes and such work better as traits, imo. Politics was a big part of organized crime, after all.
 
Banten said:
Interesting but the names should be changed. It doesn't really make sense to have Bonanno's, Gambino's, Genovese's and Colombo's running the game in a time before these guys even became mafia leaders. Joseph Colombo for example wasn't even born yet in 1917. Also this would be when Arnold Rothstein still ran the game with his jewish partners. It's also before Lucky Luciano, and before him Maranzano organized New York's families into distinct families with clear ranks. Perhaps the 50s would be better.

Edit: I also don't understand why you don't include the Lucchese family. They were at times one of the most powerful families of the five Italian mobs. Also if you wish to set this in prohibition times and before you should include the Irish and Jewish organisations. The greek Velentzas family would not even arrive in New York until the 50s.
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Hi guys, I'm new here but Banten has this spot on. I don't know much about coding for mods but I can help with Mafia history. The game would appeal best to people like me if it follows the accurate history of New York La Cosa Nostra. An overview would be:
  • Maranzano became Bonanno family.
  • Profaci became Colombo family.
  • Mangano became Gambino family.
  • Luciano became Genovese family.
  • Gagliano became Lucchese family.
1900s- origin in NY, blackhand markets.
1920s- prohibition and the bootlegging expansion
1930s - critical period - Castellammarese War, 5 families, Commission formed - The Commission also provided representation for the Irish and Jewish criminal organizations in New York i.e. Al Capone. Meyer Lanksy etc
1940s- WW2 cooperation with government, friendship with the Kennedies to influence future Presidential elections. Tight hold on politicians.

1950s- Expansion through the garment industry, loan sharking, extortion, racketeering, unions, construction.

See also - formation of The Bank of America with Joseph Bonanno.

1970s - critical period - introduction of the RICO law, and increase of FBI spying tech - phone taps etc. This lead to more betrayals in court and early rot setting into the old codes.
1990s - betrayal of John Gotti by Sam Gravanno sending shock waves through the mafia. Witness protection sky rocketed and the last of the old school mafia dons was jailed for life, along with him the code of honour.
2000s- post modern mafia. Fractured, disloyal. Rise of Mexican gangs Ms13 etc. Mafia retreat to online fraud and chemist industry.

Hope this helps!


 
Wait, the modern Mafia is disloyal? I had no idea that the mob shattered in the nineties due to a massive betrayal; I thought the Cosanotra Trials of the sixties and seventies were what ended the Mob, and the remnants were fine and still similar on there. Does the Mafia, as we know it- in the traditional structures and familial organizations -still exist at all? Who took the place of the Cosanotras when they broke?

Also, I still reiterate that we should be featuring all sorts of facets of organized crime: Political Machines, Mexican Drug Cartels, pettier gangs, the Bloods and Crips, MS-13, etc. etc., and even white collar criminals.

TurtleShroom said:
For example, the Sicilian Mafia would follow the conduct/honor and family codes (Omerta?) against ratting out their members, should they ever quit the mob (etc.). Meanwhile, Mexican Drug Cartels (which would show up in later games, such as in the sixties, seventies, and eighties) would be based around their own thing (and possibly the Patron Demon of Drug Smuggling, from the Narco-Cult movement). Then you have the Islamic crime groups exhibited in things like the Holy Land Foundation, and even white collar criminals like Enron.

I think this Mod should extend from the early twentieth century to modern times. We can cover all aspects of organized crime families and illicit syndicates in New York City. Mexican Drug Cartels are familial, many white collar criminals are familial, and heck, you could even do Political Machines having ties to the mob!
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Also, that reminds me of a man who gave a testimony to my church about how his life changed when he met Jesus. He was a member of the Mafia in the southwest and had both legitimate wealth and Mob wealth in his pockets.

After he converted to Christianity, he approached his superiors in the Mafia and told them he wanted out. They accepted his "resignation" and he walked.

After his sermon, I asked him why the Mafia didn't ever come after him.

"It's simple. I was taken before a grand jury, said nothing, and I went on with my life."​

He explained to me that the Mafia will only hunt you down- even if you resign and go straight -if you rat them out. The mob only kills those who betray it, and that insistence on loyalty (and permissibility of those who leave as long as they do not disclose secrets) is one of the big things that separate the Mafia from other types of organized crime.
 
TurtleShroom said:
Wait, the modern Mafia is disloyal? I had no idea that the mob shattered in the nineties due to a massive betrayal; I thought the Cosanotra Trials of the sixties and seventies were what ended the Mob, and the remnants were fine and still similar on there. Does the Mafia, as we know it- in the traditional structures and familial organizations -still exist at all? Who took the place of the Cosanotras when they broke?

Also, I still reiterate that we should be featuring all sorts of facets of organized crime: Political Machines, Mexican Drug Cartels, pettier gangs, the Bloods and Crips, MS-13, etc. etc., and even white collar criminals.






Also, that reminds me of a man who gave a testimony to my church about how his life changed when he met Jesus. He was a member of the Mafia in the southwest and had both legitimate wealth and Mob wealth in his pockets.

After he converted to Christianity, he approached his superiors in the Mafia and told them he wanted out. They accepted his "resignation" and he walked.

After his sermon, I asked him why the Mafia didn't ever come after him.

"It's simple. I was taken before a grand jury, said nothing, and I went on with my life."​

He explained to me that the Mafia will only hunt you down- even if you resign and go straight -if you rat them out. The mob only kills those who betray it, and that insistence on loyalty (and permissibility of those who leave as long as they do not disclose secrets) is one of the big things that separate the Mafia from other types of organized crime.
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...............................................................................................................................................



Hi TurtleShroom,

Yes, I'm afraid selfishness and self preservation effects the mafia just like all organizations where humans are involved. There is always disloyalty. It's especially true in the modern era (post 1995) because youngsters are initiated from a position of affluence and wealth already, and enter the mafia without being truly steeped and connected to the history and initial cause of why the first mafia existed. Remember - early Sicilians formed these families to ward off oppressors in order to survive, and this was true in the early 1900s for Italian Immigrants in the US being mistreated by the government as well. But today's members (in part, not always) are often so far removed from the poverty of the original members that as soon as they get arrested they'll confess and strike a deal very quickly to avoid jail time and retain their lifestyle of comfort.

The 60s and 70s did very little to shatter the mob. Other than the 30s, the New York Familys' most affluent time was probably the 70s-80s. The Gambino family alone brought in hundreds of $millions each year. The real rot set in not from law officials but by affluence, betrayal and disconnection from the initial cause and belief system. Finally, when John Gotti murdered a boss it triggered disorder, and when Sami Gravanno betrayed John Gotti, all order collapsed. Without order the people perish!

The mafia with its traditional structure still exists today. All 5 families remain. They're smaller and operate mainly within online gambling and in pharmaceuticals. They produce fake medicine and sell it on, which is quite evil, actually. Imagine the chemotherapy pills your loved ones takes are fake?

If you included Mexico, Bloods and Crips (LA, not NY) and MS-13 (nationwide since the mainly the 80s) you'd need a game so huge it would explode, and a map of north and south Americas as well.

Was the man who gave his testimony called Michael Franzese? I know his story.
 
I did not get myself to read much about the Mafias in the beginning of this Mod as I didn't see a reason to it if I couldn't get the basic functions to work and the Mod not crashing. I appreciate the answers, giving me a much clearer Mafia/gang timeline through the 20th century.

For the matter of saying it though, I am still in pretty early map development. The Mod crashes on the second day when running, I have no idea how to fix this and probably need help from a map developer if possible.
This is the current state of the map (duchies are shown):
Link to image
As you can see, for now, there are only provinces in Manhattan. I start with Brooklyn, etc. once the current state of the Mod stops crashing.

Help:
  • As I mentioned before I probably need some help with someone more experienced than me at map developing, so if someone is interested in helping solve the problem join the discord at the bottom and let me know. :)
  • I am also looking for help on another front. Since I as you know don't have much knowledge about the Manhattan mafias, and New York in general, I experience some difficulties in determining how many baronies in each county and the "historical" names of these baronies, counties, duchies and possibly kingdoms. If you are interested in helping me out, I'll leave a link to the Discord where you can let me know. (If I'm not mistaking, this is what you asked for ob1 and TurtleShroom?
A group member or not, feel free to join the current Discord of the group:
Discord

Either way, thanks for being patient as this Mod is pretty diverse from your average CKII mod.
Thanks for the read!

Edit:
The history/religions, these smaller things can be discussed but I will not take my time to discuss them or add them to the current state of the Mod before the before the Mod is stable.
 
ArthodGDT said:
I did not get myself to read much about the Mafias in the beginning of this Mod as I didn't see a reason to it if I couldn't get the basic functions to work and the Mod not crashing. I appreciate the answers, giving me a much clearer Mafia/gang timeline through the 20th century.

For the matter of saying it though, I am still in pretty early map development. The Mod crashes on the second day when running, I have no idea how to fix this and probably need help from a map developer if possible.
This is the current state of the map (duchies are shown):
Link to image
As you can see, for now, there are only provinces in Manhattan. I start with Brooklyn, etc. once the current state of the Mod stops crashing.

Help:
  • As I mentioned before I probably need some help with someone more experienced than me at map developing, so if someone is interested in helping solve the problem join the discord at the bottom and let me know. :)
  • I am also looking for help on another front. Since I as you know don't have much knowledge about the Manhattan mafias, and New York in general, I experience some difficulties in determining how many baronies in each county and the "historical" names of these baronies, counties, duchies and possibly kingdoms. If you are interested in helping me out, I'll leave a link to the Discord where you can let me know. (If I'm not mistaking, this is what you asked for ob1 and TurtleShroom?
A group member or not, feel free to join the current Discord of the group:
Discord

Either way, thanks for being patient as this Mod is pretty diverse from your average CKII mod.
Thanks for the read!

Edit:
The history/religions, these smaller things can be discussed but I will not take my time to discuss them or add them to the current state of the Mod before the before the Mod is stable.
Click to expand...



Hi,

I won't be much use on the mechanics of the mod, i'm afraid. If I can be of any help with the mafia let me know, and then people more capable than me can translate that into the game play.

Ob1
 
Hey, I could help with some of the coding if you wanted. I have coded for CKII before, and I have quite a good handle on the various features and how to use them, or disable them, as needed.

I was thinking... given that the Bonnano family is believed to be led by Michael 'the Nose' Mancuso (not someone known by the Bonnano name) the mod should not focus on your direct genetic family as it does in base-game.

The Game of Thrones mod does this with 'the Wall' where if it passes to someone of a different dynasty the game does not end. The purpose of those guarding the wall is not the propagation of their own dynasty, but the defence of the wall. Therefore the game does not end. Your purpose still serves.

I would argue that this logic should apply to the Mafia. The Bonanno crime family's purpose continues beyond the actual death of the final Bonanno-named family member. Certainly if the breadth of the mod is to go into the modern day we must think in those terms. The whole trust system in the mafia collapsed post-John Gotti (as ob1 pointed out). It would be unbelievably difficult for players to keep playing beyond that point if they must stick to their surnames, and I think this period may be one of the most fun (if most difficult) periods to play as the Mafia.
 
That's a pretty cool idea
 
myfishes said:
Hey, I could help with some of the coding if you wanted. I have coded for CKII before, and I have quite a good handle on the various features and how to use them, or disable them, as needed.

I was thinking... given that the Bonnano family is believed to be led by Michael 'the Nose' Mancuso (not someone known by the Bonnano name) the mod should not focus on your direct genetic family as it does in base-game.

The Game of Thrones mod does this with 'the Wall' where if it passes to someone of a different dynasty the game does not end. The purpose of those guarding the wall is not the propagation of their own dynasty, but the defence of the wall. Therefore the game does not end. Your purpose still serves.

I would argue that this logic should apply to the Mafia. The Bonanno crime family's purpose continues beyond the actual death of the final Bonanno-named family member. Certainly if the breadth of the mod is to go into the modern day we must think in those terms. The whole trust system in the mafia collapsed post-John Gotti (as ob1 pointed out). It would be unbelievably difficult for players to keep playing beyond that point if they must stick to their surnames, and I think this period may be one of the most fun (if most difficult) periods to play as the Mafia.
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Hey man, all help is appreciated especially an experienced one.
The thing you mentioned is also something I've tried thinking about, even though that should be the case as it is more or less historical as you mention, it does not fit into the whole CK2 experience where you have to better your family's position. Inheritance from another dynasty without gaming over should be a thing, but same dynasty members should have a higher priority and chance of inheriting imo.

Anyways you are welcome to join the Discord and dev team:
https://discord.gg/Q9MZz6

A Landy said:
That's a pretty cool idea
Click to expand...
Thanks, and it would fit CK2 perfectly.
 
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