• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dev Diary #91: Starbases

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary marks the start of dev diaries about a major upcoming update that we have named the 'Cherryh' update after science fiction author C.J. Cherryh. This is a major update that will include some very significant reworks to core gameplay systems, reworks that we have been prototyping and testing for some time. Right now, we cannot say anything about the exact nature of the update or anything at all about when it will be released, other than that it's far away. Normally, we wouldn't be doing dev diaries on an update at this stage at all, but there's simply so much to talk about that we have to start early. Cherryh will be a massive update, the largest one we've done to date, and there are many new and changed things to talk about in the coming weeks and months.

Please bear in mind that screenshots are from an early internal build and will contain art and interfaces that are WIP, non-final numbers, hot code and all that business.

Border Rework
We've never been entirely happy with the border system in Stellaris. While it generally works fine from a gameplay perspective, it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reach and making it hard to tell what the exact border adjustments will be when planets are ceded or outposts are built. For this reason, we have decided to fundamentally rework the Stellaris border system to be based on solar system ownership. Each system will have a single owner, with complete control of the system, and borders are now simply a reflection of system ownership rather than a cause for it to change. In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
2017_10_26_1.png


Starbases
A Starbase is a space station orbiting the star of said system. Each system can only have a single Starbase, but this can be anything from a remote Outpost to a massive Citadel with its own 'fleet' of orbiting defense stations. Starbases can be upgraded and specialized in a variety of ways (more details on this below), and is the primary means of determining system ownership. This means that wars are no longer fought for colonies controlling a nebulous blob of border that may not actually include the systems you really want, but rather for the exact systems you are interested in, and their starbases. This change of course would not be possible if we kept the wargoal system that exists in the live version of the game (just imagine the size of that wargoal list...), but more on that in a couple weeks.
2017_10_26_2.png


As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

Starbase Construction
With borders from colonies gone, empires now start only owning their home system, with a Starbase already constructed around their home star. To expand outside their home system, empires will have to construct Outposts in surveyed systems. An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity (more on that below). Building an Outpost in a system costs influence, with the cost dependent on how far away the system is and how contigous it is to your empire as a whole, so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way. Starbases do not cost any influence upkeep, just an up-front cost when first building one in a system. As this change makes influence far more important in the early game, there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.
2017_10_26_3.png


As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
2017_10_26_4.png


Another thing we have been wary about when working on this is making sure that building the Outposts for each system does not simply feel like adding tedium. Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case. We've also made it so that there are no entirely 'empty' systems (systems with no resources at all), as we discovered during playtesting that spending influence to claim such a system felt extremely unrewarding.

Upgrades and Capacity
Each empire will have a Starbase Capacity that represents the number of upgraded Starbases they can support. There are five levels of Starbases:
Outpost: A basic Outpost that exists only to claim a system. Costs no energy maintenance and does not count towards the Starbase Capacity, and cannot support buildings or modules. Outposts will also not show up in the outliner or galaxy map, as they are not meant to be interacted with at all unless it is to upgrade the Outpost to a Starport.
Starport: The first level of upgraded Starbase, available at the start of the game. Supports 2 modules and 1 building.
Starhold: The second level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 4 modules and 2 buildings.
Star Fortress: The third level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 3 buildings.
Citadel: The final level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 4 buildings.
2017_10_26_5.png


Regardless of the level of the Starbase, so long as it is not an Outpost, it will use 1 Starbase Capacity and will show up on the map and in the outliner. Overall, the design goal is for the vast majority of Starbases to be Outposts that you never have to manage, with a handful of upgraded Starbases that are powerful and critical assets for your empire. Going over your Starbase Capacity will result in sharply increased Starbase energy maintenance costs. Starbase Capacity can be increased through techs, traditions and other such means. You also gain a small amount of Starbase Capacity from the number of Pops in your empire. If you end up over Starbase Capacity for whatever reason, it is possible to downgrade upgraded Starbases back into Outposts. It is also possible to dismantle Starbases entirely and give up control of those systems, so long as they are not in a system with a colonized planet.
2017_10_26_6.png

2017_10_26_10.png


Spaceports and Ship Construction
Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships). To build military ships you will need a Starbase with at least one Shipyard module (more on that below). Starbases also replace Spaceports/Planets in that they are now the primary place to repair, upgrade, dock and rally ships, though civilian ships are also able to repair at planets.
2017_10_26_1.png

2017_10_26_4.png


Modules and Buildings
All non-Outpost Starbases can support Modules and Buildings. Some of these are available from the start of the game, while others are unlocked by tech. Some modules and buildings are only available in certain systems, for example Trading Hubs can only be constructed in colonized systems.

Modules are the fundamental, external components of the Starbase, and determine its actual role. Module choices include Trading Hubs (for improving the economy of colonized systems), Anchorages (for Naval Capacity), Shipyards (for building ships, duh), and different kinds of defensive modules such as gun turrets and strike craft hangar bays that improve the Starbase's combat ability. There is no restrictions on the number of modules you can have of a certain type, besides the actual restriction on module slots itself. This means, for example, that you can have a Starbase entirely dedicated to Shipyards, capable of building up to 6 ships in parallell. Modules will also change the graphical appearance of the Starbase, so a dedicated Shipyard will look different from a massive defensive-oriented fortress brimming with dozens of gun turrets.
2017_10_26_7.png


Buildings represent internal structures inside the Starbase proper, and typically work to enhance modules or provide a global buff to the Starbase or system as a whole. Building choices include the Offworld Trading Company that increases the effectiveness of all Trading Hub modules, and the Listening Post that massively improves the Starbase's sensor range. You cannot have multiples of the same building on the same Starbase.
2017_10_26_8.png


Defenses
One of the fundamental problems with the military stations in the live version of the game is that they simply do not have enough firepower. Even with impressive hit points and shields, a station with at most a dozen or so guns simply cannot match the firepower of a whole fleet. An another issue is the ability to build multiple defense stations in the same system, meaning that no single station can be strong enough to match a fleet, as otherwise a system with several such stations will be effectively invulnerable. For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station. Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase. These are automatically kept up to date with technological advances, so your Starbases won't be fielding red lasers and basic deflectors when facing fleets armed with tachyon lances.
2017_10_26_2.png


Additionally, Starbases (with the exception of Outposts) have the ability to construct defense platforms to protect them. Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets. The amount of defense platforms a Starbase can support may depend on factors such as starbase size and modules/buildings, technology, policies, and so on. The exact details here are still being worked on, but the design intent is that if you invest into them, Starbase defenses will scale against fleets across the whole game rather just being completely outpaced in the late game as military stations and spaceports currently are in the live version.
2017_10_26_3.png


One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.

... whew, this was a long one but that's all for today! Next week we'll continue talking about the Cherryh update, with the topic being Faster than Light travel...
 
Last edited:
And that's why a developer can chose to improve it, instead to replace it by the most simple "My base, my system" solution. That's why I called this the less ambitious approach.
Was the old system perfect? Certainly not. But this "improvement" just feels like a surrender.

Something that is bad in its very foundations can't be improved. This is bad in its very foundation. A good game designer knows when to abandon a bad system.
 
Is there a limit for building outposts connected to planets owned/distance to owned planet/population? Or will wide and tall empires generally have the same amount of territory?

Territorial limits used to be a big thing for tall empires..
 
Last edited:
I still don't understand if planet occupation is still a thing or not. And if it is, do we have to occupy the starbase AND all the planets to ask for the system?

Can I have an answer about it? I'm not asking for details about wargoals, only a clarification about this...
 
I'm very glad to hear that no-resource systems are being done away with. It always felt immersion breaking that, out of all the billions of stars in the galaxy, your explorers decided to go for *that* one.
 
Because you're gonna be thinking Deep Strategic Thoughts about every single system you expand into in 1000 star galaxy. Not just bulk claiming a bunch of systems in the general direction you want go whenever you have the influence.

More like clusters of stars in the direction one wants to expand in would probably be the thought process used most of the time.
 
Like I said, our approach is to discourage it strongly with punitive influence costs, but not make it impossible in select cases. We'll have to see if it's a major issue regardless, balance issues tend to be resolved later in development.
Yeah, i understand it. You can kind of lean AI to prefer "blobbing". But still, i can totally see people building "tentacles" toward really good systems. Just wondering how it will look in the end. And the cost of not being first. Like building outpost in 2 or 3 systems you don't really need, to get to the system with Gaia planet, only to realize the other Empire got it first. Colony ship could be used elsewhere, Frontier Outpost cost is returned to you, if the targeted system is no longer available. The cost of two unimportant systems is not.
 
And just to confirm: building an outpost is exactly "click construction ship; right-click star; select "build outpost" - correct?
Yes.

The problem is that after I've picked out the "best" system to pick next, now I pick "the next best" one. Once I've made my priorities or strategic decisions, and until I reorder them, it'll just be "mindlessly clicking" on each star system to build each outpost as influence allows.
I kind of see what you're getting at, but your concerns are overblown. Wouldn't all non-reflexive actions, taken after thinking to take that action, be mindless by that definition?
 
On the topic of FTL methods. The different FTL options, I think, are part of what makes this game so great and immersive. I think restricting it to 1 FTL type is a bad idea and would break the immersion. Think about it just because the lizard people on Mars discovered hyper lanes does not mean the humans on Earth would discover the same thing. I love the fact that for RP purposes, that different species would discover different types fo FTL. This is just my two cents on the subject.

On the contrary, the multiple FTL types actually cause a lot of balance problems with the game. See the balance of wormholes compared to everything else except jump drive.
 
I imagine, that the FTL-changes are also gonna play a major role in the whole "strategic decision" thing.
We don't know the changes yet, but I'm guessing that it will become much more important to take certain systems for a purely military reason.
For example chokepoints, that are created with Hyperlanes (just an example).

I personally don't get, what you guys are so upset about - it's not like you claim a system every minute in the game. And you will eventually get to the point, where you are completely enclosed by neighbours - so there won't be any systems to claim anymore for a while and thus no clicking.
You have to remember, that outposts are not going to be destroyed through war, just disabled.
This means once somebody has claimed a system you will never have to do the tedious clicking for it - they have done it for you.
Really, I honestly can't see a problem with the new system and like it a lot.
 
I mean yes, if you want to intentionally play the game badly you can do that. How you describe it is absolutely not how it's working out when we're playing the development build right now though.

I wish I was at home, then I could get some screenshots of some of the games I have and the vast areas of unclaimed space in those games I could expand into under this new system, and how much of a UI pain it would be to do so with an outpost per system.

But I'm not, so I can't.
 
I still don't understand if planet occupation is still a thing or not. And if it is, do we have to occupy the starbase AND all the planets to ask for the system?

Can I have an answer about it? I'm not asking for details about wargoals, only a clarification about this...

Everyone here has their own questions, and 99% of them won't get any answers.
In translation: wait for the later Dev Diary. God knows, maybe not even the Devs are not certain if there will be major changes or not.
 
Well, I like most of the changes, but why are you experimenting with making fleet caps smaller? In a recent game I had to exceed my cap by 100 out of 1000 to be able to combat an unbidden fleet, if you make ours smaller, you'll have to balance it that they are all smaller. And personally I'm a big fan of epic space battles. 300-400K battles is something I love a lot, sadly enough the game engine fails me there. Could that issue be adressed? The game is lagging, though not even half of my CPU is being used. I know this is complicated and requires you to change the very engine the game is built on and could have various complications, but the year is 2017 and CPU's tend to have more than 2 cores now.

About the borders, it sounds a little bit as micromanaging though, And with what technologies will the border range technologies be replaced? Cheaper upkeep for starports and on, And how expensive would they be to maintain? Not too expensive I hope, because they are litteraly orbitting a star, so smack some solar panels on there (Hope that will be an option as a building or module of some sorts).

And please leave the 3 warp types in the game, I beg you.Just leave them in there. I hate warp, because you are limited to the lanes, you can't jump around where you want to go or you have to take massive detours, which is waste of time. Or we should be able to construct hyperlanes ourselves, because else, after a war, you could gain some planets and not be able to reach them, which really is very annoying, that's why I like playing with wormholes/ warp drive. I know you could see this as being lazy and not taking in mind strategic positioning of your outposts, but to me space is a vast open space, and you shouldn't be limited by lanes "that were there out of nowhere." That doesn't make sense to me, Who constructed them, why are they placed that way.... So modify Hyperlanes as much as you want, but please leave Warp, Jump Drive and wormholes in the game. I don't wanna be stuck because of one lane I was too late to get control of.

Honestly I hope the space port limit won't be too low, or you don't have to wait very long to get the space port upgrades, otherwise you won't be able to crank up tons of ships in time of war. I usually keep a massive reserve of minerals and energy and in case of war, I start cranking out battleships and cruisers at my planets, mostly 16 in direct control and several in sectors. Will not complain if everything is balanced out and the game doesn't change that much in that aspect.

Kind regards.
 
My biggest question will be what the costs of these outposts will be like, not in terms of numbers but in terms of scale at the start of the game. When we're making around 10 minerals per month in the first few decades, expansion might be difficult if outposts are too expensive.
 
I wish I was at home, then I could get some screenshots of some of the games I have and the vast areas of unclaimed space in those games I could expand into under this new system, and how much of a UI pain it would be to do so with an outpost per system.

But I'm not, so I can't.

Your rate of expansion is still going to be capped by your influence generation, and possibly also your ability to defend your claims if they're adding in mechanics for disputed systems (as I hope they are).
 
Will habitats be able to build civilian ships like planets?

And will undivided system ownership change anything about the relationship between an empire and primitives it enlightens?
 
Well, I like most of the changes, but why are you experimenting with making fleet caps smaller? In a recent game I had to exceed my cap by 100 out of 1000 to be able to combat an unbidden fleet, if you make ours smaller, you'll have to balance it that they are all smaller. And personally I'm a big fan of epic space battles. 300-400K battles is something I love a lot, sadly enough the game engine fails me there.

You answered your own question.

Even without the performance issues, in a big space battle you can't really see anything especially once the furball starts because of how much stuff there is.
 
I just hope wars won't go from one extreme to another. If now you blast all starports and go on a decade of planet siege, with upcoming rework we may see the opposite, when you cannot advance because starbases will be too strong and will be forced into a "space trench war".