Stellaris Dev Diary #94 - Ascension Perks & Surveying in Cherryh

[Slynx]

The interesting thing is that the dev diary makes it sound as if you will end up with those planets being explored even before your enemy had a chance to survey them.

maybe because it doesn't?
to claim a system with a starbase you need to explore it. so you know exactly whats in there before you make it yours.

I dont get why trading communications gives Intel to the other players on exactly how large your empire is. Does not make sense, I don't want to give out that info easily.

yeah, that's not very realistic.
but hey, they've said that it may be expanded with intel\espionage update later

 

[TheVoidDragon]

I'm not sure what to think about the ascension perk changes. The basic version of it being made available for everyone is obviously a positive in the sense that it can be further built on and it's great for those that don't have it, but for those that did buy that DLC, to me it seems like a pretty big downside with nothing to really make up for it.

You're going back and retroactively changing something that was one of the core selling points of the DLC free for everyone, meaning that there is now less value to having bought that DLC in the first place. Yes, you still get the full set, but it was the ascension perk system itself that was a selling point...and it was one of the bigger ones for the pack. It's like saying "Oh, that thing you bought a while ago? We decided to go back and make it so your purchase was worth less in the long run, but thanks for the money anyway".

I don't mean to sound selfish or unfair, it's obviously good that everyone will get the perk system now, it's just taking away one of the whole reasons for buying the DLC in the first place and offering no compensation doesn't seem like a good thing to me.

 

[Zergor]

but hey, they've said that it may be expanded with intel\espionage update later

I would love to have a "unknown" next to the power of an other empire you don't have enough intel on at some point.
I imagine spy war is not for anytime soon but I can't wait for it. Maybe the expac after this one... we can dream

 

[Slynx]

I'm not sure what to think about the ascension perk changes. The basic version of it being made available for everyone is obviously a positive in the sense that it can be further built on and it's great for those that don't have it, but for those that did buy that DLC, to me it seems like a pretty big downside with nothing to really make up for it.

if ascension percs will be exclusive to Utopia that'll meant that future dlc will not be able to expand it (because you'll need utopia+other dlc)
and there will be no reason for the devs to change something in it. (like mentioned earlier Planetary corps - with the changes in survey they may change it too. but in your scenario there is literally no reasons to do it)

also you had like half a year with said features before anyone else

 

[Summin Cool]

The comms are a good change, I was hoping to see changes to traditions. I don't like how they behave as a straight upgrade in x direction. Take supremacy for example, you get xyz bonuses but you don't choose between them. What about giving bonuses in ship defences or firerate? What about giving a bonus to defence stations or FTL speed?

I'm not a fan of how the traditions can be planned out beforehand you don't really have a chance to change your mind, because there is usually an optimal build. They should be slightly longer with an extra tradition to pick but force you to make a choice between two options within the same tradition.

 

[Molikroth]

I'm not sure what to think about the ascension perk changes. The basic version of it being made available for everyone is obviously a positive in the sense that it can be further built on and it's great for those that don't have it, but for those that did buy that DLC, to me it seems like a pretty big downside with nothing to really make up for it.

You're going back and retroactively changing something that was one of the core selling points of the DLC free for everyone, meaning that there is now less value to having bought that DLC in the first place. Yes, you still get the full set, but it was the ascension perk system itself that was a selling point...and it was one of the bigger ones for the pack. It's like saying "Oh, that thing you bought a while ago? We decided to go back and make it so your purchase was worth less in the long run, but thanks for the money anyway".

I don't mean to sound selfish or unfair, it's obviously good that everyone will get the perk system now, it's just taking away one of the whole reasons for buying the DLC in the first place and offering no compensation doesn't seem like a good thing to me.

They're really only giving the basic ones for free, and I think it'll help the overall health of the game. Moreover if you played multiplayer with someone with the DLC, you were already getting them for free anyway. This just makes single player a little better for everyone. As a Utopia owner I don't feel like my purchase was made less valuable because more people get to play with parts of it.

 

[mathers]

I'm not sure what to think about the ascension perk changes. The basic version of it being made available for everyone is obviously a positive in the sense that it can be further built on and it's great for those that don't have it, but for those that did buy that DLC, to me it seems like a pretty big downside with nothing to really make up for it.

You're going back and retroactively changing something that was one of the core selling points of the DLC free for everyone, meaning that there is now less value to having bought that DLC in the first place. Yes, you still get the full set, but it was the ascension perk system itself that was a selling point...and it was one of the bigger ones for the pack. It's like saying "Oh, that thing you bought a while ago? We decided to go back and make it so your purchase was worth less in the long run, but thanks for the money anyway".

I don't mean to sound selfish or unfair, it's obviously good that everyone will get the perk system now, it's just taking away one of the whole reasons for buying the DLC in the first place and offering no compensation doesn't seem like a good thing to me.

I fully agree with you. And I have a question to the ones "respectfully disagreeing" with you ory earlier similar complaint. Why? Why is it bad to ask for compensation? Ascension perk were the main selling point of that dlc. Px should discount that or sell that with bundle but not make investments adhocly void.

 

[Tool Brutalis]

1)"...the basic Ascension Perks such as Mastery of Nature, Defender of the Galaxy and so on free for everyone."
--What percentage of DLC did we pay for, will now be available for free?

2) "In Cherryh, any system inside the borders of an empire you have communications with will automatically be considered surveyed"
--To include resources? I automatically know where my enemies resources are just because I communicate with them?

3)"Instead of Terra Incognita being based on which physical pixels on the map your ships have 'seen', it is now based on which systems are considered visited."
--Is this just for "ownership" of a system for resource gathering...or is it also for seeing ships in those systems?

 

[Slynx]

I would love to have a "unknown" next to the power of an other empire you don't have enough intel on at some point.

imho the best scenario is if the lack of communications acted like a First Contact right now. but with the infinite duration unless you actually trade Comms.
but it's just a dream I guess

 

[Slynx]

And I have a question to the ones "respectfully disagreeing" with you ory earlier similar complaint. Why?

I were the one that pressed "disagree"
and I've tried to explain why in a post after that. (it's right before your question).
I hope I've made my thought understandable.

 

[DarwinPon_y]

But what about the tradition that gives research points for surveying planets? It would be quite useless since most systems would be made know to the player in mid-late game.

 

[Molikroth]

I fully agree with you. And I have a question to the ones "respectfully disagreeing" with you ory earlier similar complaint. Why? Why is it bad to ask for compensation? Ascension perk were the main selling point of that dlc. Px should discount that or sell that with bundle but not make investments adhocly void.

I disagreed because it seems kind of petty to me to ask for compensation for what's honestly a pretty minor thing in the grand scheme of things. The basic perks were never why people bought Utopia. It was purchased so you could turn your species into psychics, robots or genetic super people. Getting upset because people can now pick Defender of the Galaxy seems a little pointless for the ability to build Ringworlds.

 

[TheVoidDragon]

if ascension percs will be exclusive to Utopia that'll meant that future dlc will not be able to expand it (because you'll need utopia+other dlc)
and there will be no reason for the devs to change something in it. (like mentioned earlier Planetary corps - with the changes in survey they may change it too. but in your scenario there is literally no reasons to do it)

also you had like half a year with said features before anyone else

I think you're missing the problem. It's not about them being made free, them not being exclusive anymore isn't the problem...the problem is that they're going back to change something people already paid for to tell them that what they paid for was meaningless. Making the ascension perks available to everyone is perfectly fine, it's good that they can now be built upon more...but offering nothing to make up for that they were one of the main selling points of a DLC pack is different.

It's not about it being free, it's about how they're suddenly saying that the thing you gave them money for that they specifically advertised as a core feature of a product doesn't exist now but they aren't going to do anything to replace what they're suddenly taking away. It's a simple case of you buy something and then a long time after they suddenly go back and say "Oh we changed our minds, you actually paid for more than we're giving you now, but we'll keep that money anyway".

As for the "half a year", that's utterly irrelevant when nowhere was it a time-limited offer.

I don't have a problem with the perks being free, it's the whole idea of taking them away and making your purchase retroactively worth less than what you actually paid for. That isn't a good thing for people who bought it.

 

[Thorin]

For one, it's very unclear to players that for example, you cannot discover anomalies in other empires' space, or that star chart trading can actually be a bad idea since it can in some cases stop you from finding anomalies in those systems. For this reason, we've decided to make some changes to the way surveying works. In Cherryh, any system inside the borders of an empire you have communications with will automatically be considered surveyed, without any need to send a science ship into it and waste a bunch of time scanning planets that have no chance of yielding anomalies aynway.

So, instead of adding interesting anomalies that don't change the mined stuff (or just makeing it clear you need to take over that area before survaying) you remove the best and most well done part of the game (anomalies) from 90% of the map (and also removing most of the peace time stuff to do with this.) Good choice, this one is negative again, so far 2 good and 2 bad change from 4, not a good sign for the long term of the game.

 

[ElectricEel]

Considering that the Cherryh update is going to require ships to actually cross a system to enter another line, this would have otherwise presented an excellent way to block enemy intelligence. When everyone starts with full knowledge of their enemy's territory, that aspect of warfare will be gone entirely. Not immediately seeing your fleet is about to enter a huge nebula and thus potentially running into a trap would, in my eyes, have been a feature, not an issue.

Strange example, since unexplored nebulas are marked on the map by default in Stellaris anyway (although their full extent is obscured a bit by the terra incognita graphical effect). Which makes perfect sense, since, for example, the Orion Nebula is visible to the naked eye from over 1300 light years away. In Cherryh, the thing that's special about them is that you can't get sensor data about systems within a nebula unless you have sensors within the system itself, and when you're approaching the nebula you can obviously see that you can't get the sensor data, so whether the incoming fleet originally knew about the nebula isn't even relevant to the nebula's effect of facilitating ambushes. (All the other "galactic terrain" described in the relevant dev diary is also visible on the map even if it hasn't been explored yet, which again makes sense since it's all the kind of stuff you can spot with current Earth technology from a great many star systems over.)

Otherwise, I agree that there being some fog of war regarding an enemy empire's geography enhances the game, but I can also appreciate Wiz's point that that sort if thing could stand to be coupled with a more in-depth fog-of-war and intel system.

 

[nathelbiya]

I think you're missing the problem. It's not about them being made free, them not being exclusive anymore isn't the problem...the problem is that they're going back to change something people already paid for to tell them that what they paid for was meaningless. Making the ascension perks available to everyone is perfectly fine, it's good that they can now be built upon more...but offering nothing to make up for that they were one of the main selling points of a DLC pack is different.

It's not about it being free, it's about how they're suddenly saying that the thing you gave them money for that they specifically advertised as a core feature of a product doesn't exist now but they aren't going to do anything to replace what they're suddenly taking away. It's a simple case of you buy something and then a long time after they suddenly go back and say "Oh we changed our minds, you actually paid for more than we're giving you now, but we'll keep that money anyway".

As for the "half a year", that's utterly irrelevant when nowhere was it a time-limited offer.

I don't have a problem with the perks being free, it's the whole idea of taking them away and making your purchase retroactively worth less than what you actually paid for. That isn't a good thing for people who bought it.

You behave as if you are losing anything. You are not. Just everyone is getting something for free.

 

[FelixG]

Is there any compensation for the mentioned paid-content (ascension perks) for all the buyers of Utopia-DLC?
I think the same amount of new and exclusive perks would be fair?!

I want to ask this too @Wiz

If you are removing things from paid DLC, Are you going to replace it with something for those of us who already supported you by paying for it?

 

[KingAlamar]

With the change Wiz is talking about it almost seems like once an object is surveyed by someone a flag gets tripped meaning that nobody else can find new anomalies tied to that object. By extension [in the update] maybe you can only build a starbase in a system that's fully surveyed meaning nobody else could find anomalies??

While the above system makes sense in some ways it's not overly satisfying to me. I think I'd prefer something like:

• There should be tiers of anomalies that can't be found unless you have the right amount of SENSOR and/or + Anomaly Find Power
• You can still scan [resan] any system to find anomalies. You just can't WORK the anomaly if it's in another empire's borders OR you're at war with the empire
• Note: I would NOT share the fact that you've found anomalies with other empires period

While this may add "scan micro" to the game I feel with automated science fleets this could be handled. It would also make SENSOR tech and/or "Science modules" more worthwhile because you could find those [higher powered?] anomalies earlier in the game.

 

[Brianoh]

This could be strange, if I play a MP game, close to a human friend, they would be able to see the resources in my territory before I would? If I hadn't surveyed some of the planets that is?

Also, you could have a system where if your empire closes borders by default then it also doesn't show survey data to other empires. You know, for those anti social types.

 

[nathelbiya]

This could be strange, if I play a MP game, close to a human friend, they would be able to see the resources in my territory before I would? If I hadn't surveyed some of the planets that is?

With the new system you have to have surveyed a system to be able to have it inside your borders. So this cannot happen.