• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

HoI 4 Dev Diary - Communist China

Hello, and welcome back to another Dev Diary covering China. Today, we are taking a look at Mao Zedong, and the country recently renamed to “Communist China”. As a little treat, we will also show you how crazy you can really get with the new decision system (spoiler alert: pretty crazy).

Given the overall situation in China in 1936, the Communists certainly weren’t anyone’s favourite to win the Civil War. Mao and the Red Army had barely escaped encirclement and destruction in Jiangxi, being forced on the famous Long March that carried them to Shanxi to a new Base Area. There, they tried to recover their strength and prepare for the next showdown with the forces of Chiang Kai-Shek. Japan loomed in the background, and the basic question was simple: Who would strike first?

Capture_intro.JPG


This question formed the core of the strategic deliberations the Party found itself in. If Japan struck first, then an alliance with the Nationalists would be necessary to present a United Front to the enemy. If Japan remained passive, then the efforts should be directed against the Nationalists. And while Mao had emerged as supreme in the internal factional struggles during the Long March, he was far from safe. Others may well try to usurp his position, advocating different paths to achieve true communism.

Capture_zhang_lan.JPG


When war actually came, it came from the Japanese. Mere months earlier, one of Chiang’s top generals had taken matters into his own hand and forced Chiang (more or less at gunpoint) to sign an alliance with the Communists (this Xi’an incident is represented in game as a decision the warlords can take - which we thought worked better from a gameplay perspective than a random event that fired at some point). Finally together in a United Front, both sides lost no time in undermining the spirit of the treaty while staying true to the letter. By 1940, the United Front had become more or less a formality.

Looking at the focus tree, you will note that the Communists share the right hand side of their tree with the Nationalists (modders will be pleased to hear that we now have something called a “shared focus” in script, which does about what you’d think it does). Since the the opening missions to the various countries depend on either having the same ideology or very good relations, the Communists start in a somewhat weaker negotiating position than the Nationalists. But changes in the global situation might give you new opportunities - for example if, say, Japan were to fall to communism…

prc_tree.jpg


On the left side, the tree deals with the various internal factions in the Communist Party, from Mao and his allies to the Soviet-trained and backed faction under Wang Ming to an attempt at less radical “Social Democracy” under Zhang Lan. In the center, you are presented with the mirror of the choice facing the Nationalists - do you focus on the Japanese threat, or do you try to take the fight to the other Chinese factions and try to gain supremacy before Japan comes knocking?

Representing the Chinese Communists contribution to the war presented us with a bit of a problem - they didn’t engage in open warfare for the most part, and our systems are not really made to represent offensive guerilla warfare. We wanted to give the Communists a real shot at winning the Civil War without having to resort to the clumsy and counter-intuitive system used in vanilla, where you boost party popularity in China to flip states to your side.

So a few late-evening “design meetings” (beer may or may not have been involved) later, we came up with the Infiltration/Uprising system, which is a unique mechanic for the Communists. At the most basic level, it was supposed to let you pay infantry equipment to infiltrate a state. By itself, this does very little - but when you trigger the Uprising, the states you have infiltrated will flip to your side. Depending on your approach, this can cripple the other side’s war economy and strand a large part of their army in enemy territory.

infiltration.png

(numbers are not final)

While we did want this to represent the ways the Communists executed their strategy of People’s War, building base areas from which to wage guerilla warfare, we also didn’t want to leave the other side without any way to counter the infiltration. So the infiltrated player can spend resources to try and uncover your infiltration, and, if discovered, to counter it.

We then expanded the system a bit further to make infiltrating a state not just a binary infiltrated/cleared state, but actually allow you to build up a Base Area in several levels. On the most basic level, your soldiers merely sabotage infrastructure and factories when you trigger the uprising. On the higher levels, the state flips to your control and on the highest level even spawns militia units to defend it.

We then adapted this system to also work against the Japanese. Countering infiltration does not remove it instantly, but only reduces the level of infiltration. It is always worthwhile, but it may not be enough.

Note that this system is still in testing and might change before release.

But opposition and warfare is not the only way you can win the Civil War. We really wanted to explore how the Communists could have secured their influence through political means, which brings us to the second unique China mechanic: Political Support.

support.png

(numbers are not final)

When the Communists decide to go down the “Social Democracy” branch of their focus tree, they will eventually form a coalition government with the Nationalists, which will begin a power struggle between the two parties. You can then spend political power over a number of days to build your power base in different states. Each state represents a support value, and securing the support of other warlords adds even more support. Once you have more support than the Nationalists, you can make a push for taking over the entire country, eventually annexing all of China after Chiang Kai-Shek suffers an...accident.

The Nationalist player, of course, has ways to counter this, but with political power scarce, eventually something will have to give. Note that you can pursue both approaches at the same time to keep the Nationalists guessing.

More details on how we did this will have to wait until a future diary, in which we talk more about the scripting behind the new features.

That’s all for this week. Next week we will talk about Generals, and why we have been looking at their family tree. For now, have a look at the awesome hats the Heroes of the Revolution wear into battle:

PRC_cavalry_infantry_02.jpg


Edit: We forgot to showcase some of the other new portaits for PRC, here ya go:
upload_2017-11-22_19-7-0.png


At 16:00 today, @Da9L and @podcat will show off the reworked German focus tree, attempt to kill Hitler and bring back the Kaiser! So check out the Paradox twitch today at 16:00 CET: https://go.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dear @Archangel85 , as a loyal player wishing the game to be more historically accurate, I would like to offer some suggestions and hope you guys will take them into consideration. Most of them can be modified by changing text descriptions and won't demand big game changing, but bring a lot of immersion and accuracy at the same time.
  • Communists NF "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" should be rectified into "Marxism with Chinese Characteristics". The former one is a theory matured in Deng's era to liberate people's thoughts from central planning economy into more marketing economy. Mao's theory was brought out by himself named as "Marxism blah blah blah" in The sixth Plenary Session of the 6th CPC Central Committee(1938). In CPC's 7th National Congress(Apr.1945) they officialy put "Marxism blah blah blah" as a part of quasi-Maoism into their party constitution.
  • And the focus I mentioned above should be placed ahead of "Maoism". I have already explained the reason. In fact Maoism is a jargon in the later years, it could be appropriate if you rename it as the "Initial Formation of Maoism".
  • Communists NF "Socialism Market Economy" should be changed. Changed into what I cannot decide, it's up to you guys. After the founding of the PRC, the first pack of things communists did is:
    • Finished their Agrarian Reform in the newly-liberated China(1950-1953, the most imporatant one)
    • Issued Agrarian Reform Law of the People's Republic of China(June 30,1950)
    • Liquadated Japanese collaborators(1945-1950)
    • Confiscated bureaucratic capitalists' properties and detaining comprador bourgeoisie(1949-1956)
    • Suppressed KMT counter-revolutionary activities(1950-1951)
    • Formed then developed national capitalism(1949-1956)
    • Drew other parties into their sides.
    • The First Five Year Plan.
  • Any one from above makes more sense than marketing economy. Market economy is Deng's effort. Imho there should be branches of foci after the founding, but the joint government route cannot reach some of the foci, such as expelling KMT, of course.
  • Add some events and decisions to simulate post-WWII peace negotiations, using "accept or refuse" to judge who is the attacker and who is the defender (of the peace that people demand), hence affect the stability and war support. If nobody wants to make friends, at least they can earn some time for preparing to kill compatriots.
  • There should be some decisions and events simulating Liangguang Incident in June 1, 1936. Let our erudite @Pyro157 makes a explanation, since I don't have sources written in English.
  • Also, please have a read of @Porkman 's idea on He-Umezu Agreement in this thread, which is a brilliant idea to represent historical accuracy, and game balance at certain extent.
  • Still also, please rectify communists' initial territory problem, they only occupied 1/4 of Shaanxi instead of a whole one at that time.
  • continuing also, please rectify a typo in the ROC NF tree: "Hanyang", not "Hanyan"
  • Please change "China" into "Republic of China", only with correct names then we can enjoy Hearts of Iron: A China Divided. (and The Empire Strikes Back all the way to the upcoming the Last Nationalist)
OK, serious stuffs are finished, let's talk about something not so serious:
  • Add a NF for KMT, hiring Okamura Yasuji as the advisor of "Prince of Terror"(after the WWII) hence get a drift defence from communism.
  • After the civil war, make CKS to be Mao's Chief of Army of "Genius of Logistics", since after 1949 Mao just can't stop telling everyone until his death that "CKS not only delievered his weaponry but also his manpower." What a good-service express enterprise. Sincerely, based on the facts of large-scale surrender in KMT I think Communists' Equipment Capture Ratio should involve manpower as a factor, and it should gradually increase as the war score climbs up, if a decision of "POW treatment policy" fired. Interesting, but unlikely to be made.
If I find anything new I will make another post ASAP, and my knowledge is fully at your disposal.
Great post!

I'd also recommend replacing Zhang Lan with Madame Sun Yat-Sen. She was someone everybody knows and respects, at the same time honorary chairwoman of both revolutionary committee of Kuomintang and PRC. On the other hand, despite being chairman of China Democratic League, few people can point at anything specific Zhang Lan did or was instrumental of.
 
Also, question: what kind of person was Zhang Guotao compared to Mao?
Zhang Guotao was known for having people executed simply to show who's top dog. That actually made Mao's taking over 4th Front (Zhang's troops) easier.

If you want ChiCom without blood on their hands, try Chinese Trotskyites, e.g. Peng Shuzhi, Zheng Chaolin, Liu Renjing.
 
A Kingdom of Yan'an before the Long March?

What about what happened to Zhang Gaotao's army in Qinghai? The story I always heard was that, during the Long March, Mao and Zhang had the two largest communist forces with Zhang's being larger and based in Sichuan. Over the course of the march, Zhang Guotao's forces marched a bit further west (which may or may not have been a plan by Mao... the anti Mao sources say this was obviously his scheming, but their evidence seems to be... "because it worked out so well for Mao" which is circumstantial.) Anyway, Zhang's force force was savaged by Ma forces and, when he rejoined, Mao was able to take over the leadership because Zhang was discredited.

According to official CPC history, Zhang Guotao tried to convince people that he was the central committee and called the real central committee fake one. Then he tried to establish a base somewhere in Sichuan, and only brought his troops to Yan'an when all his attempts failed.

Clash between a portion of 4th Front troops - that properly termed the "West-Route Army" - against Ma forces was later, after they came to Yan'an. The reason was two-folds: 1) Yan'an could not support that many troops; 2) Communists needed a direct route to Soviet Union badly so the Soviets could send aid (there's desert and warlord between them and Mongolia).

Nowadays some people (many in Hong Kong) claim Mao did not trust those troops and wanted them killed off by the Ma warlords. That is up to research and debate. However it would be silly to say either reason was not valid, or Mao wished more for the West-Route Army to fail than to see it succeed.
 
According to official CPC history, Zhang Guotao tried to convince people that he was the central committee and called the real central committee fake one. Then he tried to establish a base somewhere in Sichuan, and only brought his troops to Yan'an when all his attempts failed.
Yeah, a committee in the committee. He always failed, even if he was right, he just keep failing.

Nowadays some people (many in Hong Kong) claim Mao did not trust those troops and wanted them killed off by the Ma warlords.
The reason of West-Route Army was clear, but if someone say like this then he might reasoning without logic. The destruction of the army was not affordable to the communists, why would Mao deliberately let them killed. It's a common sense that firstly you should earn your position then you may purge anyone else. Otherwise the rivalry should be controlled at a certain limit.
 
Great post!

I'd also recommend replacing Zhang Lan with Madame Sun Yat-Sen. She was someone everybody knows and respects, at the same time honorary chairwoman of both revolutionary committee of Kuomintang and PRC. On the other hand, despite being chairman of China Democratic League, few people can point at anything specific Zhang Lan did or was instrumental of.
Given that there is a Chiang Kai-Shek assassination focus, I don't think she would like to made her sister's husband killed. What I suggested are all historical or historical-related, I never have a thought on either of the magical route. But anyway, restore Austro-Hungarian Empire is plausible, why not have a little more tolearance on ZhangLan? He was a great man, of course.
 
Given that there is a Chiang Kai-Shek assassination focus, I don't think she would like to made her sister's husband killed. What I suggested are all historical or historical-related, I never have a thought on either of the magical route. But anyway, restore Austro-Hungarian Empire is plausible, why not have a little more tolearance on ZhangLan? He was a great man, of course.

There's very little information on him in English. I've got many questions - what kind of person was he? What are his achievements, if any?

Nowadays some people (many in Hong Kong) claim Mao did not trust those troops and wanted them killed off by the Ma warlords. That is up to research and debate. However it would be silly to say either reason was not valid, or Mao wished more for the West-Route Army to fail than to see it succeed.

My suggestion is to take everything Jung Chang writes in her "biography" with several teaspoons of salt.

Indeed, Mao is not well-liked in HK. The city sheltered the KMT officials that fled, plus the businessmen and all the refugees. When the famine and Cultural Revolution began, even more came. People often sent food to their families in the mainland so they wouldn't starve. Many have resentment at Mao's policies ending so badly. The violence of the 1967 riots didn't help either, especially after some poor radio presenter got burned alive by the far-left protestors.

On the other hand, Chiang Kai-shek isn't well-liked either, but he's often thought as the better ruler compared to Mao. Sun Yat-sen is a hero - even a saint - to many HKers, and he got his own museum too (it's really good). Otherwise, only Mao is not liked too much. Many HKers respect Zhou Enlai, Peng Dehuai, Deng Xiaoping, etc, for being competent and trying to make things better. Myself, I admire Dr. Sun, and respect Zhou and Peng for being capable, plus Deng for ending Maoism despite having an equally ruthless streak (but let's not go into that).
 
Last edited:
We then expanded the system a bit further to make infiltrating a state not just a binary infiltrated/cleared state, but actually allow you to build up a Base Area in several levels. On the most basic level, your soldiers merely sabotage infrastructure and factories when you trigger the uprising. On the higher levels, the state flips to your control and on the highest level even spawns militia units to defend it.
So it's basically a more polished and malleable version of the "Resistance" mechanic from HOI3's "For the Motherland?" And will we see something similar for Poland, France, and other occupied nations in the future, to make the "Resistance to Occupation" mechanic in Vanilla more meaningful? Looks good so far, keep it up!

Also, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks post-march Mao is kind of hot here... If I recall correctly, that was the image most of the world had of him at the time, due to hm losing a lot of weight on the march, and being photographed during an interview shortly after.
 
So it's basically a more polished and malleable version of the "Resistance" mechanic from HOI3's "For the Motherland?" And will we see something similar for Poland, France, and other occupied nations in the future, to make the "Resistance to Occupation" mechanic in Vanilla more meaningful? Looks good so far, keep it up!

Also, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks post-march Mao is kind of hot here... If I recall correctly, that was the image most of the world had of him at the time, due to hm losing a lot of weight on the march, and being photographed during an interview shortly after.

Well, Mao did have a ton of wives.

It's based off this image, actually:
View attachment 300392

Still nothing on young Zhou Enlai, though.
 
My suggestion is to take everything Jung Chang writes in her "biography" with several teaspoons of salt.

The Biography... Wild Swans is quite good and largely reliable. I haven't noticed any egregious errors in it.

The book that is trash is "Mao: the Untold Story." It's an anti Mao book written in the style of a Maoist polemic that someone would read at a self struggle session. The bottom line is that "Mao is evil" and every historical fact is marshalled towards that end.

It's not entirely useless, I read a historical journal article attacking the book after I read it... and one of the criticisms in the article was, "Jung Chang talks about the Communists growing and selling opium as if it was a huge secret, but it's long been known to China scholars."

I remember thinking... "Well, I didn't know that, so I found it useful."
 
The Biography... Wild Swans is quite good and largely reliable. I haven't noticed any egregious errors in it.

The book that is trash is "Mao: the Untold Story." It's an anti Mao book written in the style of a Maoist polemic that someone would read at a self struggle session. The bottom line is that "Mao is evil" and every historical fact is marshalled towards that end.

It's not entirely useless, I read a historical journal article attacking the book after I read it... and one of the criticisms in the article was, "Jung Chang talks about the Communists growing and selling opium as if it was a huge secret, but it's long been known to China scholars."

I remember thinking... "Well, I didn't know that, so I found it useful."

Wild Swans is good, and very reliable. It's just that her biography of Mao is one of the most blatantly biased works I've ever seen. I'd definitely avoid using it as a source at all costs.

I'm no fan of Mao as a leader myself, but I will happily admit he was one of the finest guerrilla leaders in history. He and Chiang are not so different - they were ruthless dictators, with their share of good and bad traits. It's the same argument I use when some Taiwanese go "Chiang is literally Hitler". It's understandable that they detest his brutality, especially after all he did to them, but to compare him to that lunatic displays plain ignorance.

However, it's good in that she does reveal some bits that weren't recorded down before. The information given is honestly quite good, but the bias tends to wreck it.
 
Wild Swans is good, and very reliable. It's just that her biography of Mao is one of the most blatantly biased works I've ever seen. I'd definitely avoid using it as a source at all costs.

I'm no fan of Mao as a leader myself, but I will happily admit he was one of the finest guerrilla leaders in history. He and Chiang are not so different - they were ruthless dictators, with their share of good and bad traits. It's the same argument I use when some Taiwanese go "Chiang is literally Hitler". It's understandable that they detest his brutality, especially after all he did to them, but to compare him to that lunatic displays plain ignorance.

However, it's good in that she does reveal some bits that weren't recorded down before. The information given is honestly quite good, but the bias tends to wreck it.

Well, in Taiwan, I remember when talking about the 228 incident, some of the Taiwanese were saying that the way the protesters coordinated and avoided infiltration by KMT spies from Fujian (who spoke Minnanhua) was by speaking Japanese. They just said this in an offhanded, "weren't they clever?" sort of way.

Imagine if Poland, under Soviet Occupation in 1947, had used German as the language of protest.

No one would be surprised that the occupying Soviets would react badly to this.

Taiwan had the fortune of not being damaged in WW2 really at all.

The island wasn't drafted until 1943. The Americans only bombed a few factories. Taiwan was the bread basket of the Japanese empire so, when the Americans sunk all the shipping, Japan starved, but Taiwan had more rice than they knew what to do with.

Making things worse was that Chiang Kai Shek initially sent his C team of administrators to the island in 1946 (Chen Yi's major qualification was that he had been governor of Fujian)

After 1947, they realized that Taiwan might be the last thing they had left and improved the administration a lot. It helped that all of the local ties of corruption were broken by the retreat. No one in the administration had pre existing ties to Taiwanese elites so that reduced corruption. The importance of good governance as a matter of life and death for the KMT also had been impressed on them by this time. The small geographic area also helped the administrative issues. Finally, the 400,000 or so Japanese who had left meant that vast amounts of industry and land could redistributed with no real losers.
 
This will play very well with cold war mods
 
 
Many HKers respect Zhou Enlai, Peng Dehuai, Deng Xiaoping, etc, for being competent and trying to make things better.

What about Liu Shaoqi? He was a good man, too.
Deng Xiaoping was the master of neo-authoritarian.
Zhou Enlai was a man so dedicated to his duty and we often say Zhou has no reason to be defamated.
Zhang Lan was a man who advocated democracy and became the media of KMT and CPC in 1945. A very patrotic "Xiu Cai"(Scholar) in the last year of Qing.After 1949 he was the chairman of National Political consultive conference and deputy president of PRC. A man devoted himself in the fields of democracy and education. You can see him in the famous painting "The Founding Ceremony of People's Republic of China"(Kai Guo Da Dian), with his amazing beard.
EDIT: Why people from HK are HKers? Why not HKnese?
 
What about Liu Shaoqi? He was a good man, too.
Deng Xiaoping was the master of neo-authoritarian.
Zhou Enlai was a man so dedicated to his duty and we often say Zhou has no reason to be defamated.
Zhang Lan was a man who advocated democracy and became the media of KMT and CPC in 1945. A very patrotic "Xiu Cai"(Scholar) in the last year of Qing.After 1949 he was the chairman of National Political consultive conference and deputy president of PRC. A man devoted himself in the fields of democracy and education. You can see him in the famous painting "The Founding Ceremony of People's Republic of China"(Kai Guo Da Dian), with his amazing beard.
EDIT: Why people from HK are HKers? Why not HKnese?

The people who went over to the CCP such as Zhang Lan and Soong Qingling were in essence useful idiots in the leninist parlance. They were given government jobs and not party jobs... which is great. And then you think about it for more than 2 minutes and remember that the government is subordinate to the party at all levels so these jobs were purely symbolic.

I've also always thought that Mao gets too much credit as a general. He wasn't in the field except during the Long March. What he did do was take what Peng Dehuai, Zhu De, Lin Biao, and the other Communist field generals were doing and then write it down in the masterful "On Guerilla Warfare." Trying to make Mao into an amazing general historically is like those people that argue that Sun zi must have been an amazing general because the Art of War is so good.

English conventions for naming people from different countries is weird and inconsistent. Generally, a country ending with an n, m or an a after one of those letters, will get the "-ese" ending (Chinese, Burmese, Japanese). A country ending in ia, will get an n tacked on (like Latvian of Russian).

Hong Kong is the only place in English that ends with ng... so it gets a special case.
 
The people who went over to the CCP such as Zhang Lan and Soong Qingling were in essence useful idiots in the leninist parlance.SNIP
There were called "vase" in Chinese, for the meaning of useless but essential.

Once I read from somewhere that "-ese" is a kind of discrimination to describe "the people in there are short", is that true? Seems we don't got any "-ese" in Europe.
 
What about Liu Shaoqi? He was a good man, too.
Deng Xiaoping was the master of neo-authoritarian.
Zhou Enlai was a man so dedicated to his duty and we often say Zhou has no reason to be defamated.
Zhang Lan was a man who advocated democracy and became the media of KMT and CPC in 1945. A very patrotic "Xiu Cai"(Scholar) in the last year of Qing.After 1949 he was the chairman of National Political consultive conference and deputy president of PRC. A man devoted himself in the fields of democracy and education. You can see him in the famous painting "The Founding Ceremony of People's Republic of China"(Kai Guo Da Dian), with his amazing beard.
EDIT: Why people from HK are HKers? Why not HKnese?

Liu Shaoqi could be called a good man, I suppose, although he wasn't all that nice - he did argue for the Great Leap Forward, after all. He possibly had the worst fate of all targeted Party members during the Cultural Revolution, though. Poor guy.

I thought Zhou's life was literally work, diplomacy, sweet-talking everybody and advising Mao :D

Very interesting about Mr. Zhang. I'm liking him even more now.

Well...um...Hongkonger has a better ring to it. Also, since most of us HK locals are Cantonese...we can...uh...use something that doesn't end in "nese".
 
Last edited:
Liu Shaoqi could be called a good man, I suppose, although he had his share of ruthless acts too.

I thought Zhou's life was literally work, diplomacy, sweet-talking everybody and advising Mao :D

Very interesting about Mr. Lan.

Well...um...Hongkonger has a better ring to it. Also, since most of us HK locals are Cantonese...we can...uh...use something that doesn't end in "nese".

The most heartbroken thing with liu Shaoqi is, when he was detained by red guards, he took out the Constitution and said: "I am the President of People's Republic of China, I am protected by the Constitution." But what he got was only laughing and mocking. Seriously, I don't like people stepping on laws.
And that's Mr. ZHANG!