12 people Rifles OP cost

[Tankovsky]

Rifles units cost in 4th Armored and 2nd Infantry are too small, which makes these divisions too strong, its cost same as Osttruppens and 5 smaller then grenadiers without panzerfaust.
Their suitable price is 25 like grenadiers, or more.
Rifles vs Grenadiers
Strength 12 vs 9
300 m 5 vs 2 HE
rate of fire 257 vs 100
400 m 3 vs 4 HE
rate of fire 218 vs 187
Acc 6 vs 5
Cost 20 vs 25

 

[Alex646]

These divisions would be totally crap without that cheap infantry. However, it counts for German divisions too.

 

[Tankovsky]

These divisions would be totally crap without that cheap infantry. However, it counts for German divisions too.[/QUOT]

Not necessarily to change the price it is possible to change their parameters or parameters of their opponents.
In any case now these two divisions dominate one-on-one without giving a chance to the German divisions, I only showed one unit which is in both and its unbalanced parameters.

 

[Cherrybomb]

Replace the current MG through MG42 of the Grenadiers and give them +1 to their HE-Value and the problem is solved. Then they are their cost worth. I think that should be done with Fallschirmjäger and Pioniers, too. The MG42 was more common as an infantry weapon than the MG34 in Normandy.

 

[Alex646]

In any case now these two divisions dominate one-on-one without giving a chance to the German divisions, I only showed one unit which is in both and its unbalanced parameters.

Dominate? Really??? Actually, it strongly depends from skill and chosen german division too. Even 16. Luft with crappiest infantry ever has decent chances in 1x1 in right hands. I won't even say about 17SS, FJ3 or Luftlande which are pretty strong in 1x1.

 

[Karlburg]

The normal US rifles are actually not very good at fighting at range and they lack the SMG power of the 2x SMG commonwealth rifles. Ost truppen will beat rifles at range handily.

Rifles are worth 20 points. You could bump them up to 25 but it'd just be a nerf of 4ad(which probably needs it) and 2id(which is probably the wrong direction for a nerf).

TBQH, i probably wouldn't touch the rifles if I wanted to nerf 4ad. Rather hit the stuarts, m18s, and b26 gun version.

 

[IronHat]

Rifles units cost in 4th Armored and 2nd Infantry are too small, which makes these divisions too strong, its cost same as Osttruppens and 5 smaller then grenadiers without panzerfaust.
Their suitable price is 25 like grenadiers, or more.
Rifles vs Grenadiers
Strength 12 vs 9
300 m 5 vs 2 HE
rate of fire 257 vs 100
400 m 3 vs 4 HE
rate of fire 218 vs 187
Acc 6 vs 5
Cost 20 vs 25

the rpm listed for small arms is completely misleading in terms of dps. don't use it, it's a seriously bad idea.

that said, the mg42 and mg34 are still two of the best small arms weapon in the game, but it's not because of its list rpm.

 

[Tankovsky]

the rpm listed for small arms is completely misleading in terms of dps. don't use it, it's a seriously bad idea.

that said, the mg42 and mg34 are still two of the best small arms weapon in the game, but it's not because of its list rpm.

I do not understand what you're saying, according to the statistics of these units it is perfectly clear that Rifles shoot Grenadiers at a distance of 100 to 300 meters for as many as 2 HE!!!, moreover, because of the low ROF MG 34 and 12 Strength can reduce the distance without problems if necessary , but still cost less.

 

[Karlburg]

I do not understand what you're saying, according to the statistics of these units it is perfectly clear that Rifles shoot Grenadiers at a distance of 100 to 300 meters for as many as 2 HE!!!, moreover, because of the low ROF MG 34 and 12 Strength can reduce the distance without problems if necessary , but still cost less.

Most of the firepower stats that Eugen has for infantry that are shown are made up. He's correct- the HE is Eugen guesstimating the actual HE damage and ROF is a lie.

Look in the actual mod files and you'll see the actual rof/damage values.

Keep in mind that very few divisions actually have the grenadiers used because they have no particular advantages. You might as well spring for the pioneer and get a lot more 100m firepower.

 

[Tankovsky]

Most of the firepower stats that Eugen has for infantry that are shown are made up. He's correct- the HE is Eugen guesstimating the actual HE damage and ROF is a lie.

Look in the actual mod files and you'll see the actual rof/damage values.

Keep in mind that very few divisions actually have the grenadiers used because they have no particular advantages. You might as well spring for the pioneer and get a lot more 100m firepower.

Even without the parameter of the ROF their anomalous rifle HE on 300 meters and the Strength of 12 people makes this infantry too good for 20 points.
As I remember three divisions have the grenadiers, and a 300-meter rifle HE applies to all divisions.
If 7 people from grenadiers give 2 HE, then why will 9 from Rifles shoot out 5?
2/7=x/9
x=2*9/7
x=2.57...

 

[SnickeringSquid]

If 7 people from grenadiers give 2 HE, then why will 9 from Rifles shoot out 5?
2/7=x/9
x=2*9/7
x=2.57...

The HE value is different because they use different Rifles. The German Infantry focus on MGs and the rifles they use are the Bolt Action Kar98k while U.S. forces focused on Riflemen and use the Semi-auto M1. 9 semi auto rifles will put out more rounds than 7 Bolt Action Rifles.

 

[Gaspote]

I think it's a ridiculous discussion considering any allied infantry is cheaper than his axis counterpart. Cards value are bullshit, i've never seen a US rifle squad steamroll panzergrenadier too.

 

[Karlburg]

US rifles have an advantage over pgrens at 100m, though not as much as the double SMG commonwealth rifles.

Pgrens are a weak squad within 100m. Most axis armor battlegrouops do have access to pioneers or stosstruppen for this kind of combat, though. Or you can just use fire support.

 

[Gilmund]

US rifles have an advantage over pgrens at 100m, though not as much as the double SMG commonwealth rifles.

Pgrens are a weak squad within 100m. Most axis armor battlegrouops do have access to pioneers or stosstruppen for this kind of combat, though. Or you can just use fire support.

Yes. It's all about range. Stosstruppen are kinda weak though, one grenade and they're dead as they are a 5-men squad. It does happen in pure 100m engagement against sapeurs, storm troopers...
One of the main reason ab engineers are so good within 101st airborne is they're a 11 men squad. Sturmpioneers are a 6-men squad, not to mention the 2-men flammenwerfers squads.
9-10 men pioneers squads are good for the same reason. With full health they don't die after a frag grenade.

 

[Fussel]

Yes. It's all about range. Stosstruppen are kinda weak though, one grenade and they're dead as they are a 5-men squad. It does happen in pure 100m engagement against sapeurs, storm troopers...
One of the main reason ab engineers are so good within 101st airborne is they're a 11 men squad. Sturmpioneers are a 6-men squad, not to mention the 2-men flammenwerfers squads.
9-10 men pioneers squads are good for the same reason. With full health they don't die after a frag grenade.

Stoßtruppen in the hand of a capable player hold 17.SS over the water. You might want to take a look for example at Gnef 17.SS replays.

 

[ziomax90]

Rifles units cost in 4th Armored and 2nd Infantry are too small, which makes these divisions too strong, its cost same as Osttruppens and 5 smaller then grenadiers without panzerfaust.
Their suitable price is 25 like grenadiers, or more.
Rifles vs Grenadiers
Strength 12 vs 9
300 m 5 vs 2 HE
rate of fire 257 vs 100
400 m 3 vs 4 HE
rate of fire 218 vs 187
Acc 6 vs 5
Cost 20 vs 25

you are absolutely right.

 

[Gilmund]

Stoßtruppen in the hand of a capable player hold 17.SS over the water. You might want to take a look for example at Gnef 17.SS replays.

Yep you may use them properly and get their strong part but it's somehow tricky as stosstruppen is a 100m range unit but canno't risk to target every 100m enemy unit. They'll die quickly against any specialised unit with a frag grenade. They are better in ambush vehicle mode than inf combat imo (or against regular rifles). I'd say you loose them halft the time cause they got caught in the wrong situation and disappear in no time.

They canno't handle properly the 100m engagement they are made for, it does make them weak for me. Btw i'm perfectly aware there are pioneers to make it work but there it is, many times why pick some stosstruppen if you have pioneers for double the price and double the men ?

 

[Herr_Robert]

With the change to Closer Combat in ranked/quickmatch, I think the Stosstruppen aren't very good anymore. Games are more static and more likely to turn into a war of attrition, and then you are going to need all of the infantry you can get. I still keep one card of Stosstruppen in A, but when B comes, I think it's better to rely on Pioneers.

 

[Trolling4Warlords]

Personally 4AD really needs a nerf but I think Phase B and Phase C 130 pts is just way to insane! I know they are supposed to flood into Normandy after landing but man 1vs1 I just don't think you can compete with resources like that.

 

[Herr_Robert]

Personally 4AD really needs a nerf but I think Phase B and Phase C 130 pts is just way to insane! I know they are supposed to flood into Normandy after landing but man 1vs1 I just don't think you can compete with resources like that.

I think the main problem is their cost-effective units, as well as the B-26 Marauder in phase A, which many divisions struggle against. Hellcats for $110 and Stuarts for $65. The Hellcat is one of the best TDs in the game because of its speed, especially in 1v1 games, and worth far more than $110 (I would say it's worth at least $140-150). Also, since the last patch the HS can't even kill Hellcats reliably.