Paradox, sometimes less is more

[Kuantum]

Feeling a bit tired of EU IV and owning HOI 4 and Stellaris, but having none of the DLCs, i was browsing the foruns trying to perceive if it would be worth it to invest both, my time and my money, on these titles.

Sadly, I continuously come across threads and reviews complaining about poor AI and DLCs that broke previously released DLCs. This is frequently mentioned in Stellaris 2.x threads: "The AI still can't handle the 2.0 modifications".

Now, HOI 4 was released almost 2 years ago, I played for about 100 hours and in my latest game, conquered Spain as Portugal without firing a single shot. Thinking that was a bit silly for a WW2 Grand Strategy, I put it aside.

It is a bit disheartening to come to the conclusion, that after 3 DLCs and 2 more years of development, the game remains broken on so many levels. Namely, the AI.

In the case of EU 4, "money" is the current big problem for the AI.

In fact it seems that "poor AI implementation" is the current common denominator in every Paradox game.

But is it poor AI implementation?

My understanding, from a gamer point of view, is that these are fairly complex games, with intricate decision trees and a miriad of variables that the AI has to take into account, so by no means am I trying to undervalue the work of the developers.

What it seems to me, is that this current trend of "software as a service" is driving the gaming industry to continuously and purposely deliver "unfinished" products. Products that remain in active development for many years after release.

But making new content for EU IV is not the same as making an expansion for Dark Souls, as each new feature may have , and actually HAS, unforeseen consequences in the way the AI behaves.

Paradox is currently delivering per game/per year, around 50€ worth of DLC and it is not uncommon for these new aditions to break the game in several ways.

Probably 80% of the consumers are ok with this strategy. I am not though, and as a consequence, I restrain myself from buying adicional DLCs (at least at full price).

So I hope that in the future, Paradox delivers Less but Better. And i'm sure they can even charge the same.

 

[Pile_O_Gunz]

Games of Eu4 and Crusader kings calibre only exist due to the software as a service model. If you want a game with five years of post-release development effort then somebody has to pay for that.

The nature of software development is that development generally becomes more inefficient the larger and more complex it becomes. Paradoxes pricing model is based on development hours this inherently means we are going to see diminishing returns for our money unless they eat the cost.

I think a lot of the complaints regarding Stellaris are overstated I found it more difficult than eu although I haven't played the recent versions. As for Eu4 A.I, it's the best strategy game a.i I've seen. I think reading too many bitter forum posts may have tainted your judgment.

 

[brifbates]

I don't think he was complaining about the basic model, the problem is the rate of new releases breaking stuff that ends up not being fixed until the next release which breaks more stuff. I know that is what I find most frustrating about it. Before they fix all of the big broken stuff they move on from bug-fix releases to developing the "next big thing" and you never get a reasonably bug-free product to play.

(not going to comment on Stellaris 2.0 because it has more than just the big bugs issue working against it)

 

[Kuantum]

Games of Eu4 and Crusader kings calibre only exist due to the software as a service model. If you want a game with five years of post-release development effort then somebody has to pay for that.

The nature of software development is that development generally becomes more inefficient the larger and more complex it becomes. Paradoxes pricing model is based on development hours this inherently means we are going to see diminishing returns for our money unless they eat the cost.

I think a lot of the complaints regarding Stellaris are overstated I found it more difficult than eu although I haven't played the recent versions. As for Eu4 A.I, it's the best strategy game a.i I've seen. I think reading too many bitter forum posts may have tainted your judgment.

Well, i actually experienced several EU IV AI issues in the latest patches. And i agree that EU IV was, and still is, an amazing game (i've played it for about 1000 hours). I'm just a bit "concerned" with the current Paradox strategy regarding their main titles.

I don't even mind paying the equivalent of a triple-A game in DLCs. But i expect to be given bug free significant content.

 

[Admiral_Obvious]

Well, i actually experienced several EU IV AI issues in the latest patches. And i agree that EU IV was, and still is, an amazing game (i've played it for about 1000 hours). I'm just a bit "concerned" with the current Paradox strategy regarding their main titles.

I don't even mind paying the equivalent of a triple-A game in DLCs. But i expect to be given bug free significant content.

Bug free won't happen, in any game that exists. As long as content is added, there will be bugs and exploits.

You should be expecting "minimal bugs", like minor stuff that won't break the game, because that's what will always happen.

 

[aruon]

Bug free won't happen, in any game that exists. As long as content is added, there will be bugs and exploits.

You should be expecting "minimal bugs", like minor stuff that won't break the game, because that's what will always happen.

this. that said PDS is pretty quick on the draw when a game breaker slips through.

 

[brifbates]

this. that said PDS is pretty quick on the draw when a game breaker slips through.

And they're recently pretty quick to move on leaving the non-"game breaker" type to the next bug-infested new release patch...

 

[Mikhail_Mengsk]

Yes, it's a real issue right now. The main problem with the constant stream of patches and DLC is that the AI lags behind and the game experience tends to degrade quickly.

Stellaris is a, heh, stellar example of that because the 2.0 version is basically a new game introducing a metric ton of changes over 1.x, so there were a ton of bugs and the AI basically can't play 2.x properly. But HoI 4 has the same kind of problems.

I, too, hope that PDX starts slowing down creating new content and works more on AI and bugfixing. Unless this happens, Stellaris may become a trainwreck and both waste its potential and damage PDX's reputation.

 

[DasGleiche]

Welcome to the games industry in 2018. Gaming went truly mainstream around 2012, you see. It no longer was just gamers that would commit to a title or a series and stick by it - it was hordes of young kids that would buy everything, put barely a few hours into them, and move on to the next. Making flashy things that appeal like silver to a magpie became the priority, rather than a lengthy in depth experience that would require dozens of hours to get the most out of, if not hundreds.

If a developer spent 5 years on a game that had a 100+ hour story, it could be heralded as one of the great games of all time, or it could flop. The cost investment would be huge. If a developer produced an 8 hour story and repetitive multiplayer within 1-2 years and released several paid DLCs for it that were essentially cosmetic only (map packs etc), they would be nearly guaranteed a return on their investment and then some, and if it's a series, they will be assured they can produce more and more of the same and the 'fans' will still buy it so as not to feel left out.

The growth of mainstream multiplayer in the CoD generation really dealt a blow to developers that wanted to prioritise gameplay or story over graphics. Vanilla HoI3 took DLCs to become somewhat substantial, but look what we have done with BICE to see the potential it had. Then you see HOI4 which for now is fundamentally shallow. You could compare it to Dragon Age - a fantastic story driven RPG turned generic hack and slash in one game. Or Mass Effect, a successor to Knights of the Old Republic, one of the best games of all time, and it seemed to be holding the torch; the next releases have much more 'FPS style' gameplay, season passes, multiplayer, pre-order bonuses and DLCs.

The priority has not been on the fundamentals - AI, gameplay, story, stability - even just having a clear artistic vision and sticking to it. Instead the goal is simply to create something that looks appealing and will both sell initially and keep people around to gain from DLCs. I don't think Paradox ever said when prepping HOi4 that they wanted to make the ultimate PC wargame, that they wanted to take HOI3 and look at examples like BICE to see what it could have been and take it to the next level with a new engine, an improved AI, more moddability, and new and interesting mechanics. Instead, we basically got the opposite, but at least you can watch little planes bombing stuff on the map, eh?

 

[BeauNiddle]

The priority has not been on the fundamentals - AI, gameplay, story, stability - even just having a clear artistic vision and sticking to it. Instead the goal is simply to create something that looks appealing and will both sell initially and keep people around to gain from DLCs.

Ah the good old "I was into gaming before it was cool" argument.

People don't buy expansions for games they don't like. If people are buying expansions / DLCs then it's a sign that people like the game. This is why wailing and gnashing of teeth on the forums is mostly ignored because the finances say that people do prefer the new system.

HOI4 is a lot more connected than previous version. In HOI3 research was unconnected to production & trade and supply were barely connected (binary do you have any X YES / NO). It made the game a lot easier because everybody was always fighting with fully upgraded and reinforced units, all you had to do was let the AI control your sliders and it was all automatic. HOI4 is based around the idea that Total War should be connected. You need to build the specific supplied for that unit type, you have to research and then DEPLOY upgrades. The production system is based around streamlining and not interfering and requires trade choices much more than previously.

The game is not harder than previous versions but it is better.

a new engine, an improved AI, more moddability, and new and interesting mechanics

You got all of those things (AI tactically, not yet strategically)

 

[Denkt]

My understanding, from a gamer point of view, is that these are fairly complex games, with intricate decision trees and a miriad of variables that the AI has to take into account, so by no means am I trying to undervalue the work of the developers.

What it seems to me, is that this current trend of "software as a service" is driving the gaming industry to continuously and purposely deliver "unfinished" products. Products that remain in active development for many years after release.

Yes it is the complexity of the games that is the problem for the ai who is very decent when you consider the games.

Welcome to the games industry in 2018. Gaming went truly mainstream around 2012, you see. It no longer was just gamers that would commit to a title or a series and stick by it - it was hordes of young kids that would buy everything, put barely a few hours into them, and move on to the next. Making flashy things that appeal like silver to a magpie became the priority, rather than a lengthy in depth experience that would require dozens of hours to get the most out of, if not hundreds.

If a developer spent 5 years on a game that had a 100+ hour story, it could be heralded as one of the great games of all time, or it could flop. The cost investment would be huge. If a developer produced an 8 hour story and repetitive multiplayer within 1-2 years and released several paid DLCs for it that were essentially cosmetic only (map packs etc), they would be nearly guaranteed a return on their investment and then some, and if it's a series, they will be assured they can produce more and more of the same and the 'fans' will still buy it so as not to feel left out.

The growth of mainstream multiplayer in the CoD generation really dealt a blow to developers that wanted to prioritise gameplay or story over graphics. Vanilla HoI3 took DLCs to become somewhat substantial, but look what we have done with BICE to see the potential it had. Then you see HOI4 which for now is fundamentally shallow. You could compare it to Dragon Age - a fantastic story driven RPG turned generic hack and slash in one game. Or Mass Effect, a successor to Knights of the Old Republic, one of the best games of all time, and it seemed to be holding the torch; the next releases have much more 'FPS style' gameplay, season passes, multiplayer, pre-order bonuses and DLCs.

The priority has not been on the fundamentals - AI, gameplay, story, stability - even just having a clear artistic vision and sticking to it. Instead the goal is simply to create something that looks appealing and will both sell initially and keep people around to gain from DLCs. I don't think Paradox ever said when prepping HOi4 that they wanted to make the ultimate PC wargame, that they wanted to take HOI3 and look at examples like BICE to see what it could have been and take it to the next level with a new engine, an improved AI, more moddability, and new and interesting mechanics. Instead, we basically got the opposite, but at least you can watch little planes bombing stuff on the map, eh?

I find this very wrong. I have played many old games and have found them not to be any better than the newer games. Gaming has been mainstream for atleast 1972 when Magnavox Odyssey was released. The only way to make such a claim would be to only look at specific games which would be arbitary. Graphics look better now (subjective), not because of prioritisation of it over gameplay or story but because of improvements in hardware and software. Just comparing the old paradox games to the new ones show improvements in all areas not only graphics.

Hearts of Iron IV is not shallow and I find it overall to be a much superior game compared to Hearts of Iron III. Like a story don't get good by just making it long, HOI IV, greatness comes from how it use the stuff in the game and combine them, something I found was lacking in HOI III in which you for example assign your research and just forget about it. I find HOI IV to be a superior game in pretty much everything compared to HOI III. Simpler to play but also deeper, depth does not come from just having alot of stuff but how the stuff actually plays into the game.

 

[DasGleiche]

Ah the good old "I was into gaming before it was cool" argument.

In no way was this what I was saying.

People don't buy expansions for games they don't like. If people are buying expansions / DLCs then it's a sign that people like the game. This is why wailing and gnashing of teeth on the forums is mostly ignored because the finances say that people do prefer the new system.

If you truly believe this to be an absolute, you are incredibly naive. Many people buy DLCs/expansions for games in a series they are disappointed with in the hope that they will improve it, due to their loyalty and love of other games in the series. Yes, there are plenty of people who do like the simpler, shiny games. My point was that the industry is now catered to them, than older more niche gamers who prefer stuff that requires thought.

The game is not harder than previous versions but it is better.

You got all of those things (AI tactically, not yet strategically)

The first comment is ultimately down to you. You're missing my point again with the second. HOI4 is not a wargame. It's barely even strategy.

I find this very wrong. I have played many old games and have found them not to be any better than the newer games. Gaming has been mainstream for atleast 1972 when Magnavox Odyssey was released. The only way to make such a claim would be to only look at specific games which would be arbitary. Graphics look better now (subjective), not because of prioritisation of it over gameplay or story but because of improvements in hardware and software. Just comparing the old paradox games to the new ones show improvements in all areas not only graphics.

You're missing my point. It's about how the industry has changed and their priorities shifting. Not what games look like.

Hearts of Iron IV is not shallow and I find it overall to be a much superior game compared to Hearts of Iron III. Like a story don't get good by just making it long, HOI IV, greatness comes from how it use the stuff in the game and combine them, something I found was lacking in HOI III in which you for example assign your research and just forget about it. I find HOI IV to be a superior game in pretty much everything compared to HOI III. Simpler to play but also deeper, depth does not come from just having alot of stuff but how the stuff actually plays into the game.

I'm not really in a position to judge vanilla HOI3 with vanilla HOI4. HOI3 on release was broken crap. But looking at BlackICE, where we are to this day trying to make the ultimate wargame; it could not have been made in HOI4. The only hope there is for HOI4's mod team to really take it to the levels HOI3 reached lies in, you guessed it, more DLCs, more patches, and a whole lot more cash from the playerbase.

 

[aruon]

If you truly believe this to be an absolute, you are incredibly naive. Many people buy DLCs/expansions for games in a series they are disappointed with in the hope that they will improve it, due to their loyalty and love of other games in the series.

if Denkt is naive, then you are being incredibly cynical. generally if people are disappointed with a game, they MIGHT get a DLC... but only after they either stop playing it altogether and occasionally take a second look via youtube to see if it's become any better. yes DLCs do have a massive part to play in extending a game's lifespan as is the norm with many non-indie games since 2010, but first impressions DO count.

Yes, there are plenty of people who do like the simpler, shiny games. My point was that the industry is now catered to them, than older more niche gamers who prefer stuff that requires thought.

my question: ...WHAT INDUSTRY? the Video Games Industry is a pretty damn big umbrella to try and fit everyone and everything under.
yeah, the Activisions and EAs and Tecmo-Koeis have been dumbing people down for years, but that's because the CoDs and Battlefields and Dynasty Warriors are a dime-a-dozen (literally dozens with a plural in DWs case holy ****). once you've played one, you've played them all. and they're getting less intuitive, more openly anti-consumer, and less liked because they are just shells of their former selves- or worse.

but comparing PDS games and others to the big AAAs whose intentions are greedy in the extreme and whose dumbing down designs are meant to sacrifice quality for cash flow is just a little bit unreasonable. hell, it is literally scientifically proven now that playing strategy games aid in brain development.

you really want to see what a dumbed down HOI looks like? take a look at the games by Easysoft... on MOBILE. they aren't even bad really, just really, REALLY, simple.

HOI4 is not a wargame. It's barely even strategy.

and this here is an example of hyperbole that makes the word proud. really this isn't helping your argument. if a GRAND STRATEGY game about WORLD WAR TWO isn't a wargame or a strategy game to you? then just what the hell is?

But looking at BlackICE, where we are to this day trying to make the ultimate wargame; it could not have been made in HOI4. The only hope there is for HOI4's mod team to really take it to the levels HOI3 reached lies in, you guessed it, more DLCs, more patches, and a whole lot more cash from the playerbase.

now here's this issue with blackICE... it's a damn fine mod in both HOI 4 and 3...

but it's not for everyone. not even just the hardest of hardcore, but not nearly everyone.

i'm a longtime veteran game myself and even i'm highly intimidated by it. in fact, the one time i tried to play BICE in HOI 3... i just couldn't. no seriously, i got a RAGING headache the one time i tried it and looked at its research tab. and seeing as it now even has it's own addon to the official HOI 4 launcher i can only assume my brain will melt again if i load up the HOI 4 version.

as for modder making use features, look at Kaiserreich. if there's any feature that the KR modders or anyone else simply can't do in HOI 4, it's espionage, because the core features it needs aren't there. other than that, KR does practically everything right across the board, and even uses the base game's features in ways the actual developers probably never even thought of. only now are they considering having to try and integrate a DLC since Waking the Tiger is such a major feature gold mine (ex. limited border wars- a never before seen feature in any PDS game, let alone HOI).

 

[DasGleiche]

if Denkt is naive, then you are being incredibly cynical. generally if people are disappointed with a game, they MIGHT get a DLC... but only after they either stop playing it altogether and occasionally take a second look via youtube to see if it's become any better. yes DLCs do have a massive part to play in extending a game's lifespan as is the norm with many non-indie games since 2010, but first impressions DO count.

I didn't call Denkt naive. I called the other guy naive. I dunno, how many people who were fans of the old HOI/DH games bought HOI4 on release? How many will come back to it via DLCs 'once they have made it better'? I am cynical, yes, but this is what I've seen from the position I'm in.

but comparing PDS games and others to the big AAAs whose intentions are greedy in the extreme and whose dumbing down designs are meant to sacrifice quality for cash flow is just a little bit unreasonable. hell, it is literally scientifically proven now that playing strategy games aid in brain development.

Then that's what I asked in my first post - what are pdx's intentions, if not money? Have they honestly set out with an artistic vision to make a briliant game, or have they set out to make something that appeals to the mass market and will earn them the most cash?

and this here is an example of hyperbole that makes the word proud. really this isn't helping your argument. if a GRAND STRATEGY game about WORLD WAR TWO isn't a wargame or a strategy game to you? then just what the hell is?

I don't see how there's any thoughtful strategy, really, when you can easily conquer the world as Luxembourg. With battleplans that are simply drawing an arrow to the enemy capital and sitting back and winning the war. With no OOB.

i'm a longtime veteran game myself and even i'm highly intimidated by it. in fact, the one time i tried to play BICE in HOI 3... i just couldn't. no seriously, i got a RAGING headache the one time i tried it and looked at its research tab. and seeing as it now even has it's own addon to the official HOI 4 launcher i can only assume my brain will melt again if i load up the HOI 4 version.

Case in point, really.

 

[BeauNiddle]

I'm not really in a position to judge vanilla HOI3 with vanilla HOI4. HOI3 on release was broken crap. But looking at BlackICE, where we are to this day trying to make the ultimate wargame; it could not have been made in HOI4. The only hope there is for HOI4's mod team to really take it to the levels HOI3 reached lies in, you guessed it, more DLCs, more patches, and a whole lot more cash from the playerbase.

That statement is so weird. Paradox never made BlackICE so you can't say they are dumbing down their game by comparing their current release against something they never did.

Okay so I've just noticed in your signature you mention you're a developer of BlackICE. So you work on a mod that scratches your personal itch and then complain that the developer doesn't share your personal opinion on itches. That context makes your comments a lot clearer.

 

[DasGleiche]

That statement is so weird. Paradox never made BlackICE so you can't say they are dumbing down their game by comparing their current release against something they never did.

Okay so I've just noticed in your signature you mention you're a developer of BlackICE. So you work on a mod that scratches your personal itch and then complain that the developer doesn't share your personal opinion on itches. That context makes your comments a lot clearer.

We are all just sharing our opinions, no?

I've yet to hear a compelling argument against my point that Paradox has moved away from seeking to create games for pleasure/for artistry and now wants to make them for as much money as possible.

 

[BeauNiddle]

We are all just sharing our opinions, no?

I've yet to hear a compelling argument against my point that Paradox has moved away from seeking to create games for pleasure/for artistry and now wants to make them for as much money as possible.

That's because you've not posted any evidence to support your opinion that Paradox have moved away from creating games for pleasure / artistry. Other than your already discredited claim that HOI4 is not a strategy game.

HOI4 is more connected than previous versions showing artistry and the names of some of the alternate countries & decisions to create some old empires show the programmers still take pleasure from the game they are working on.

 

[DasGleiche]

That's because you've not posted any evidence to support your opinion that Paradox have moved away from creating games for pleasure / artistry. Other than your already discredited claim that HOI4 is not a strategy game.

HOI4 is more connected than previous versions showing artistry and the names of some of the alternate countries & decisions to create some old empires show the programmers still take pleasure from the game they are working on.

So you think that HOI3, HOI4, EU4, CK2, Stellaris etc came out as perfect games, without flaw? HOI3 took 3 huge expansions before it became something substantial, and still was very hollow compared to what mods can do. EU4, CK2 and HOI4 are set to follow a path of having dozens upon dozens of DLCs that could have been in the base game already. Does this not reek of greed? The company continue to ignore the constant calls from the community - that shinyness is irrelevant, that the most important thing would be having a good AI - and put out cosmetics and DLCs that add a few features for a single faction at practically 1/2-1/3 the cost of the game to begin with.

And it's not just about Paradox, this is the game industry in general. In the past,, we would get a huge game, and there might be huge expansions for 1-3 years that add a tremendous amount to the point they are essentially new games. Is that what we have nowadays?

 

[brifbates]

It's not about coming out as perfect, it's about getting further from perfect with every patch/expansion which is near a 180 degree switch from the old days.

 

[aruon]

So you think that HOI3, HOI4, EU4, CK2, Stellaris etc came out as perfect games, without flaw? HOI3 took 3 huge expansions before it became something substantial, and still was very hollow compared to what mods can do. EU4, CK2 and HOI4 are set to follow a path of having dozens upon dozens of DLCs that could have been in the base game already. Does this not reek of greed?

paradox DLCs aren't like CoD map packs, they aren't just some lazy reskin of the same thing from two years ago. they're actually NEW features.

as for the DLC spam, it's not like PDS just releases a game and then plots out everything they're going to be releasing afterwards for the next 5 years like some grand conspiracy. hell, the project lead has changed on all their current games (save for HOI 4 i think), so every game has had its major developmental twists, turns, and paradigm shifts.

what you are doing is seeing the scummiest of AAA publishers and PDX (and i'm going to assume plenty of other developers too) in the same light. it's not like PDS has intentionally removed features only to add them back in as DLC.

as for modders- modders have a completely different vision for the game. it's really as simple as that. they are also completely different people.

The company continue to ignore the constant calls from the community - that shinyness is irrelevant, that the most important thing would be having a good AI - and put out cosmetics and DLCs that add a few features for a single faction at practically 1/2-1/3 the cost of the game to begin with.

And it's not just about Paradox, this is the game industry in general. In the past,, we would get a huge game, and there might be huge expansions for 1-3 years that add a tremendous amount to the point they are essentially new games. Is that what we have nowadays?

what community are you talking about? because that's one hell of a claim to be making since i'm not seeing torches and pitchforks.

as for AI- do you have any idea how difficult it is to make a AI that's just functional? especially in games like these? yeah it can always get better, but that is something that happens incrementally, and not in huge bursts.

as for costs- well for one, it's not like PDX invented the DLC $20-25 is what it's always been around no matter the game. for two do you remember last year when PDX upped the costs of its DLCs by roughly $1.50 under the pretenses of inflation? aside from the very poor timing as it was holidays (i think? can't remember the date), the justification smacked of corporate BS and because of both those reasons PDX got (rightly) crucified because of it. then in an epiphany probably brought on by a mental door knock from Captain Obvious, they reversed to changes and put the extra money towards charities aiding Syrian refugee resettlement, a choice both altruistic and (to me at least) absolutely ****ing hilarious because of how badly they trolled xenophobes of all stripes in the process.[/QUOTE]

And it's not just about Paradox, this is the game industry in general. In the past,, we would get a huge game, and there might be huge expansions for 1-3 years that add a tremendous amount to the point they are essentially new games. Is that what we have nowadays?

what we have nowadays is the ability to pick and choose DLC, rather than HAVE to get them in a certain order, rather than HAVE to get them just to stay up to date with THE ACTUAL ****ING GAME! man that pissed me off when i was first introduced to PDS via HOI 3! that just blew my mind, and yes that DID look greedy to me since you were railroaded.

yes the DLCs DO add a ton of new content, but you aren't forced to get them just so that the game is playable at its current update.