Dev Diary #92 - Orders of Magnitude

[bulldog98]

Ah but one of the most fun occupations of a grand campain is collecting all the christian holy orders as a christian emperor

 

[Icedaemon]

1 vassalized holy order is probably too few. Maybe have the cap at 3?

Will other religions still be restricted to only one holy order?

Personally, I think that an in character 'that's a good idea' type scenario might be interesting, wherein seeing someone else's typically catholic holy order contribute significantly to a war near you would allow for a decision to found your own holy order if your religion has high enough moral authority.

 

[Kymetra]

99% of religion has only 1 holy order, or has something changed and will be more holy orders for example own?

Is that just for Catholic Holy orders?

Edit:

1 vassalized holy order is probably too few. Maybe have the cap at 3?

Will other religions still be restricted to only one holy order?

Catholic religion has a more Holy order other religions have only 1

 

[Timavus]

I would like to add the decision to send (at least sometimes, in some circustances) playing character's cadet adult sons and brothers in a mercenary company, more or less like already happens with nomad horse lords. We have counts, dukes, kings, barons... I would like to see more immersive contents about (landless) knights. I mean, who doesn't love knights?

 

[TheDungen]

Ah but one of the most fun occupations of a grand campain is collecting all the christian holy orders as a christian emperor

It was far to easy and it left every other ruler of you faith unable to ask them for aid.

 

[Memoryofthelost]

Hello there!

We are already more than halfway through July, and we are already at the third of the five rogue Dev Diaries we will have. For this week’s Dev Diary, we are going to talk about Holy Orders, and the small changes being made to them.

I am going to start off with clarifying that Holy Orders are NOT going to be made playable. The changes are made so you can interact with them in new ways, not for you to play as them. The game is still focused on dynasties, and that has not changed with Holy Fury. Another thing I want to note, is that all these changes to Holy Order are part of the patch to Holy Fury, and not part of the expansion. In other words, you will not have to pay for them.

And as always, certain things might change before the release of Holy Fury.

View attachment 390009

With their own government form rather than being Feudal, it is easier for us to treat them as their own entities, and not having the player awkwardly inherit one of them, with all their own quirks and special focuses. They should be easier to distinguish from a normal Feudal character as well, now that they have their own frames rather than the Feudal blue.

View attachment 390013

Some of the other Christian Holy Orders have received decisions for forming and vassalizing them as well, in addition to the old decisions for the Knights Hospitaller and the Knights Templar. In the example above, you can see the decision to vassalize the Knights of Calatrava, and we have added similar ones for the Knights of Santiago, the Teutonic Order and the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.

A new limitation we have added, is that you can only vassalize 1 Holy Order at a time with these decisions. This was to make sure we didn’t have one player changing religions and trying to capture all of them. This is Crusader Kings 2, after all, not Pokémon.

View attachment 390010

If you have vassalized a Holy Order and they don’t find you fit to rule anymore, they will leave your service. They will return any land they hold that you are the De Jure Lord of, so with that in mind you usually shouldn’t lose large swathes of land if a Holy Order leaves your service. Though I would recommend staying on friendly terms with them.

View attachment 390011

For the Knights Hospitaller, they can now ask a ruler conquering an island in the mediterranean to donate it to the order. We have added a similar event for the Teutonics in the north, replacing the old event where they asked for a single county.

View attachment 390012

... So that is all for today!

Hopefully the Holy Orders will be a tad more interesting with some of these changes. Next week we will take a look at… Let me take a look at my notes here… “Shepherds, zealous kids and Venetians burning down Byzantium”? Surely that’ll be exciting news!

Any love for non-Christian holy orders? Because they are relatively dull in comparison heck you can donate to any holy order of your religion but only a few Catholic holy orders can give you loans, I would love to see other holy orders do that like pagan ones since pagans have no way to get loans in times of need anyway.

 

[my_nemesis12]

A new limitation we have added, is that you can only vassalize 1 Holy Order at a time with these decisions. This was to make sure we didn’t have one player changing religions and trying to capture all of them. This is Crusader Kings 2, after all, not Pokémon.

If you have vassalized a Holy Order and they don’t find you fit to rule anymore, they will leave your service. They will return any land they hold that you are the De Jure Lord of, so with that in mind you usually shouldn’t lose large swathes of land if a Holy Order leaves your service. Though I would recommend staying on friendly terms with them.

Paradox, I'm deeply frustrated by how nonchalantly you announce such a poorly thought out and, frankly, gamebreaking feature.

Throughout the existence of CK2, the rules of feudalism have been fairly constant. You can't just take your lands and fuck off, telling your liege to suck it. At least not without beating him in a war. You used to be able to do this with an exploit, but that was removed in 2012, for good reason. Now you've decided to add this gamebreaking feature back in, on purpose?

Vassals don't get to just leave. That's the foundation of feudalism.

Allow me to illustrate how absurd this decision is. You're the Holy Roman Emperor. You've played a bloodline of good, loyal Christians for hundreds of years and conquered half of the world. All this time, your loyal Teutonic Order has been by your side. You've granted them plenty of lands over the years, which are obviously outside HRE de-jure borders. Without noticing, your son died a week before your death, leaving the empire to your grandson. Oh shit, your grandson was raised by the court jew and is jewish. The teutonic order hates you now. They say "bye bye" and take half of eastern europe with them. You have no recourse and no CB. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir.

You get the picture. This is a horribly thought out feature and should be straight up removed. You do not get to leave your liege without a fight in feudalism. Period.



It seems this feature was put in purely to restrict people from playing the game how they want to play it. Paradox, this isn't a multiplayer game. It never will be. Multiplayer is fun, but it will never be balanced, and everyone who plays it knows that and is okay with it. Please stop trying to balance this for multiplayer the way you did EU4.

 

[TheDungen]

Paradox, I'm deeply frustrated by how nonchalantly you announce such a poorly thought out and, frankly, gamebreaking feature.

Throughout the existence of CK2, the rules of feudalism have been fairly constant. You can't just take your lands and fuck off, telling your liege to suck it. At least not without beating him in a war. You used to be able to do this with an exploit, but that was removed in 2012, for good reason. Now you've decided to add this gamebreaking feature back in, on purpose?

Vassals don't get to just leave. That's the foundation of feudalism.

Allow me to illustrate how absurd this decision is. You're the Holy Roman Emperor. You've played a bloodline of good, loyal Christians for hundreds of years and conquered half of the world. All this time, your loyal Teutonic Order has been by your side. You've granted them plenty of lands over the years, which are obviously outside HRE de-jure borders. Without noticing, your son died a week before your death, leaving the empire to your grandson. Oh shit, your grandson was raised by the court jew and is jewish. The teutonic order hates you now. They say "bye bye" and take half of eastern europe with them. You have no recourse and no CB. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir.

You get the picture. This is a horribly thought out feature and should be straight up removed. You do not get to leave your liege without a fight in feudalism. Period.



It seems this feature was put in purely to restrict people from playing the game how they want to play it. Paradox, this isn't a multiplayer game. It never will be. Multiplayer is fun, but it will never be balanced, and everyone who plays it knows that and is okay with it. Please stop trying to balance this for multiplayer the way you did EU4.

A holy order may allow itself to be subservient to you but it's not really a vassal it's a holy order at the end of the day it serves god not men. If a holyorder breaks it's cooperation with you take it up with the pope.
The teutonic order was often subservient to the holy roman emperor but first and foremost their duty was to the papacy and to god.

And if a jew came unto the throne of the holy roman empire the result would be a massive civil war.

This got nothing to do with multiplayer, vassalage agreement like this for holy orders were never really right.

 

[Silversweeeper]

Have there been any changes to how the Catholic holy orders spawn, particularly stuff like Calatrava spawning and being named after a supposedly reconquered castle that hasn't been reconquered in that timeline?

Have there been any changes to the hiring conditions for the Catholic holy orders (e.g. Calatrava and Santiago not being easily hired to wage wars outside of Iberia/Western Europe unless the Reconquista is over) to prevent issues like e.g. a Catholic realm never being dislodged from a foothold in North Africa because five free holy orders defend it at all times?

If a holy order leaves your service, do you get a CB to subjugate them again (if they're co-religionists) or to otherwise retake the land they steal?

Do all holy orders have the same government type, or are there any special ones (e.g. a Muslim version allowing holy orders to hold temples)?

Have there been any improvements to the AI logic for land grants to holy orders (as opposed to the AI always agreeing to requests)?

 

[my_nemesis12]

A holy order may allow itself to be subservient to you but it's not really a vassal it's a holy order at the end of the day it serves god not men. If a holyorder breaks it's cooperation with you take it up with the pope.
The teutonic order was often subservient to the holy roman emperor but first and foremost their duty was to the papacy and to god.

It's not about the holy order, it's about the liege. It doesn't matter what the holy order wants or who it thinks it answers to. It's a question of whether or not the liege would just let them leave peacefully and take their lands with them. The answer is no way Jose,

They'd have to leave ALL of their lands behind, or fight an independence war.

 

[Kymetra]

Any love for non-Christian holy orders? Because they are relatively dull in comparison heck you can donate to any holy order of your religion but only a few Catholic holy orders can give you loans, I would love to see other holy orders do that like pagan ones since pagans have no way to get loans in times of need anyway.

You have forgotten the Catholic can take money from the Pope or the Jews

 

[Unready]

A new limitation we have added, is that you can only vassalize 1 Holy Order at a time with these decisions. This was to make sure we didn’t have one player changing religions and trying to capture all of them. This is Crusader Kings 2, after all, not Pokémon.
If you have vassalized a Holy Order and they don’t find you fit to rule anymore, they will leave your service. They will return any land they hold that you are the De Jure Lord of, so with that in mind you usually shouldn’t lose large swathes of land if a Holy Order leaves your service. Though I would recommend staying on friendly terms with them.

I can only hope what landless Holy orders will be out of coalitions. Because having several of them jump out of any capital I DOW is not fun.
Especially ifI'm catholic emperor and conquer Indian heathens and main resistance to me is catholic holy orders.

PS Same for landless pope and other landless heads of churches.

 

[Thure]

Paradox, I'm deeply frustrated by how nonchalantly you announce such a poorly thought out and, frankly, gamebreaking feature.

Throughout the existence of CK2, the rules of feudalism have been fairly constant. You can't just take your lands and fuck off, telling your liege to suck it. At least not without beating him in a war. You used to be able to do this with an exploit, but that was removed in 2012, for good reason. Now you've decided to add this gamebreaking feature back in, on purpose?

Vassals don't get to just leave. That's the foundation of feudalism.

Allow me to illustrate how absurd this decision is. You're the Holy Roman Emperor. You've played a bloodline of good, loyal Christians for hundreds of years and conquered half of the world. All this time, your loyal Teutonic Order has been by your side. You've granted them plenty of lands over the years, which are obviously outside HRE de-jure borders. Without noticing, your son died a week before your death, leaving the empire to your grandson. Oh shit, your grandson was raised by the court jew and is jewish. The teutonic order hates you now. They say "bye bye" and take half of eastern europe with them. You have no recourse and no CB. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir.

You get the picture. This is a horribly thought out feature and should be straight up removed. You do not get to leave your liege without a fight in feudalism. Period.



It seems this feature was put in purely to restrict people from playing the game how they want to play it. Paradox, this isn't a multiplayer game. It never will be. Multiplayer is fun, but it will never be balanced, and everyone who plays it knows that and is okay with it. Please stop trying to balance this for multiplayer the way you did EU4.

This is the middle ages, not Absolutism era.

 

[N_revo]

With the "only one vassal holy order thing" there is a problem. Often HO have castle in all Europe and for some Achievement (the first i think is S.P.Q.R) you need complete control of a region. The quickest way to conquer all those baronies was vassalize the catholic holy orders but now we can do it only for ONE holy order. So you have something in mind to solve the situation?

 

[LeSingeAffame]

I can only hope what landless Holy orders will be out of coalitions. Because having several of them jump out of any capital I DOW is not fun.
Especially ifI'm catholic emperor and conquer Indian heathens and main resistance to me is catholic holy orders.

PS Same for landless pope and other landless heads of churches.

Holy Orders' troops don't fight againt religious brethren

 

[iniudan]

I would like to add the decision to send (at least sometimes, in some circustances) playing character's cadet adult sons and brothers in a mercenary company, more or less like already happens with nomad horse lords. We have counts, dukes, kings, barons... I would like to see more immersive contents about (landless) knights. I mean, who doesn't love knights?

You can already do that with one of them, they just need military education.

 

[TheDungen]

It's not about the holy order, it's about the liege. It doesn't matter what the holy order wants or who it thinks it answers to. It's a question of whether or not the liege would just let them leave peacefully and take their lands with them. The answer is no way Jose,

They'd have to leave ALL of their lands behind, or fight an independence war.

It matters because it's not who the holy order thinks it serves it matters who it serves, it serves god a god that your ruler in 90% of the cases believe in and whom at least 99.9% of his people believe in. The catholic church never commanded great armies but it held a lot of sway because religion matters in this era. You are imposing ideas about absolutism and sovereignty on this era which do not belong in it. If you ask any person in this era to chose to serve god or the king/emperor the vast majority will serve god. Hence why some kings got toppled when they became excommunicated.

With the "only one vassal holy order thing" there is a problem. Often HO have castle in all Europe and for some Achievement (the first i think is S.P.Q.R) you need complete control of a region. The quickest way to conquer all those baronies was vassalize the catholic holy orders but now we can do it only for ONE holy order. So you have something in mind to solve the situation?

Maybe you could vassalize more than one if the head of the region is already your vassal.

 

[Knotz]

If you reform a pagan religion and one of the doctrines is equality and your holy order gets formed does that get reflected in the membership or do holy orders remain male only?

 

[Almirante]

The description says "defense" rather "defence".
It should be "defence" as this is how it's spelled for traits such as "Patient".

 

[Oorlog]

Good Title! Lets hope they will live up to that! I really hope they'll be more influencial in gameplay were you will have some sort triangular relationship between holy orders the religious head and the feudal lords all vieing for power and influence.