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Dev Diary #92 - Orders of Magnitude

Hello there!

We are already more than halfway through July, and we are already at the third of the five rogue Dev Diaries we will have. For this week’s Dev Diary, we are going to talk about Holy Orders, and the small changes being made to them.

I am going to start off with clarifying that Holy Orders are NOT going to be made playable. The changes are made so you can interact with them in new ways, not for you to play as them. The game is still focused on dynasties, and that has not changed with Holy Fury. Another thing I want to note, is that all these changes to Holy Order are part of the patch to Holy Fury, and not part of the expansion. In other words, you will not have to pay for them.

And as always, certain things might change before the release of Holy Fury.

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With their own government form rather than being Feudal, it is easier for us to treat them as their own entities, and not having the player awkwardly inherit one of them, with all their own quirks and special focuses. They should be easier to distinguish from a normal Feudal character as well, now that they have their own frames rather than the Feudal blue.

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Some of the other Christian Holy Orders have received decisions for forming and vassalizing them as well, in addition to the old decisions for the Knights Hospitaller and the Knights Templar. In the example above, you can see the decision to vassalize the Knights of Calatrava, and we have added similar ones for the Knights of Santiago, the Teutonic Order and the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.

A new limitation we have added, is that you can only vassalize 1 Holy Order at a time with these decisions. This was to make sure we didn’t have one player changing religions and trying to capture all of them. This is Crusader Kings 2, after all, not Pokémon.

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If you have vassalized a Holy Order and they don’t find you fit to rule anymore, they will leave your service. They will return any land they hold that you are the De Jure Lord of, so with that in mind you usually shouldn’t lose large swathes of land if a Holy Order leaves your service. Though I would recommend staying on friendly terms with them.

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For the Knights Hospitaller, they can now ask a ruler conquering an island in the mediterranean to donate it to the order. We have added a similar event for the Teutonics in the north, replacing the old event where they asked for a single county.

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... So that is all for today!

Hopefully the Holy Orders will be a tad more interesting with some of these changes. Next week we will take a look at… Let me take a look at my notes here… “Shepherds, zealous kids and Venetians burning down Byzantium”? Surely that’ll be exciting news!
 
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Almirante said:
The description says "defense" rather "defence".
It should be "defence" as this is how it's spelled for traits such as "Patient".
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Defense is the American spelling of the word. The game mostly use American spelling.
 
Nice, but I fear this means I can no longer use my standard "give county to holy order, offer vassalization (with neg_diplo), switch to them, accept, switch back to my character" procedure. Oh well, such is life.
 
my_nemesis12 said:
Allow me to illustrate how absurd this decision is. You're the Holy Roman Emperor. You've played a bloodline of good, loyal Christians for hundreds of years and conquered half of the world. All this time, your loyal Teutonic Order has been by your side. You've granted them plenty of lands over the years, which are obviously outside HRE de-jure borders. Without noticing, your son died a week before your death, leaving the empire to your grandson. Oh shit, your grandson was raised by the court jew and is jewish.
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Why did you allow your grandson to be raised by an infidel while taking Faith or Heritage?
 
Since holy orders are getting a new government type, are you planning to add one for mercenaries too?
 
my_nemesis12 said:
Allow me to illustrate how absurd this decision is. You're the Holy Roman Emperor. You've played a bloodline of good, loyal Christians for hundreds of years and conquered half of the world. All this time, your loyal Teutonic Order has been by your side. You've granted them plenty of lands over the years, which are obviously outside HRE de-jure borders. Without noticing, your son died a week before your death, leaving the empire to your grandson. Oh shit, your grandson was raised by the court jew and is jewish. The teutonic order hates you now. They say "bye bye" and take half of eastern europe with them. You have no recourse and no CB. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir.
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If a Jew inherited the HRE in the Middle Ages, I think the Teutonic Order taking a hike would be the least of his problems. Like all your other vassals declaring independence immediately or just declaring a coup. Or ten coups at the same time. And getting gangbanged by all your neighbors in an impromptu crusade. Assuming you'd even manage to walk down the aisle to your coronation without getting Caesar'd.

All in all, I think this feature is pretty fair.
 
Silversweeeper said:
Have there been any changes to the hiring conditions for the Catholic holy orders (e.g. Calatrava and Santiago not being easily hired to wage wars outside of Iberia/Western Europe unless the Reconquista is over) to prevent issues like e.g. a Catholic realm never being dislodged from a foothold in North Africa because five free holy orders defend it at all times?
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Ooo, how's this for a thought: if Holy Orders were treated akin to Societies. Excellent, Holy Orders have spawned, grandmasters and all, to make your holy wars more viable and more viable to hold onto that land. Only, they spawn into the world with a low maximum troops available, and only grow in strength as more devout sons with strong stats join their society - AI decisions to boost the strength/number of their holy order towards familiar numbers, using points gained from total society Martial and/or successful holy order activities.
 
Would like to see more Crusader Orders, but then things balanced by each order having less men. Was thinking Knights of Lazarus, the still-existent Catholic Knights of the Holy Sepulchre, regional orders too. There was a mod that did this years ago, but if memory serves, an update broke it somehow.

Anyone know if mercenaries are playable in any circumstances? Played as them before by using console commands and trial and error, but I can't remember how I did it or whether it's still possible.
 
Praiokles said:
no playable holy orders > no interest
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I think the devs know that if they make Holy Orders playable, there'd be basically no excuse to continue to keep theocracies as the remaining unplayable government. And if they made theocracies playable (which I'd like them to), they'd be unable to prevent me from playing as the Pope and engineering a Romance-culture invasion of Sweden :D
 
my_nemesis12 said:
Paradox, I'm deeply frustrated by how nonchalantly you announce such a poorly thought out and, frankly, gamebreaking feature.

Throughout the existence of CK2, the rules of feudalism have been fairly constant. You can't just take your lands and fuck off, telling your liege to suck it. At least not without beating him in a war. You used to be able to do this with an exploit, but that was removed in 2012, for good reason. Now you've decided to add this gamebreaking feature back in, on purpose?

Vassals don't get to just leave. That's the foundation of feudalism.

Allow me to illustrate how absurd this decision is. You're the Holy Roman Emperor. You've played a bloodline of good, loyal Christians for hundreds of years and conquered half of the world. All this time, your loyal Teutonic Order has been by your side. You've granted them plenty of lands over the years, which are obviously outside HRE de-jure borders. Without noticing, your son died a week before your death, leaving the empire to your grandson. Oh shit, your grandson was raised by the court jew and is jewish. The teutonic order hates you now. They say "bye bye" and take half of eastern europe with them. You have no recourse and no CB. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir.

You get the picture. This is a horribly thought out feature and should be straight up removed. You do not get to leave your liege without a fight in feudalism. Period.



It seems this feature was put in purely to restrict people from playing the game how they want to play it. Paradox, this isn't a multiplayer game. It never will be. Multiplayer is fun, but it will never be balanced, and everyone who plays it knows that and is okay with it. Please stop trying to balance this for multiplayer the way you did EU4.
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Sadly, there is this tendency in Paradox to push player to play their games as they want to have them be played, instead of letting players to decide for themselves.
 
MDHP1997 said:
I think the devs know that if they make Holy Orders playable, there'd be basically no excuse to continue to keep theocracies as the remaining unplayable government. And if they made theocracies playable (which I'd like them to), they'd be unable to prevent me from playing as the Pope and engineering a Romance-culture invasion of Sweden :D
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Yes, let the Battle Pope crush the puny swedes!
 
Will it be possible to pull a Philippe IV and totally crush an order like he did with the Knights Templars? Would be great if you would need the Popes approval for that and some all around other mechanics kicking in for this.
 
Will Holy Order Members get unique clothing for their unit portraits? Say Teutonic Knights will use their signature black and white tabard with a golden cross and their famous ornate great helms, "Squires", Monks and all members of the order will look the part.
 
I don't really really see the problem with them not returning lands you aren't de jure liege of. As long as you stay on top of usurping and creating titles, it shouldn't really cause you to lose a ton of land.
 
Another intriguing DD. It says holy orders can't form kingdom- or empire-level titles, but I assume they can still form duchies? It might be an interesting playthrough to see just how much land you could give to a single holy order.
 
Prominences said:
Another intriguing DD. It says holy orders can't form kingdom- or empire-level titles, but I assume they can still form duchies? It might be an interesting playthrough to see just how much land you could give to a single holy order.
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What I don't get is how they say HO cant form a kingdom when there is a screenshot of the Teutonic Order with a Kinglevel.
 
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