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CK2 Dev Diary #95: Amending Africa

Greetings!

We’ve shown you plenty of map changes already, including updates to Russia, Scandinavia, and most recently Italy and the Alps. But surely, we couldn’t do all of these wonderful updates without looking at the continent that deserves it the most, right?

So let’s have a look at Africa.

You read that right. Africa is finally getting the love and attention it deserves! Northern Africa and Mali have long needed an update. Where counties resembled squares and rectangles more than anything else. But no more!

Let’s start with the northern kingdoms. The kingdoms themselves remain the same. Only Mauretania has been renamed to Maghreb, and has along with the kingdom of Africa been placed in the Empire of Maghreb. Mainly to break down the very large Arabian Empire slightly. On the county level, every single county has been repainted in order to place them where they should be and give the borders a much more natural feeling.

01_updated_maghreb.png


02_updated_k_africa.png


All in all, the new provinces and additional holding slots will make North Africa stronger than before. But to offer additional protection against aggressive Holy Wars from the major powers of Europe, we’ve increased the number of sea zones slightly in the mediterranean. The stronger realms of central Europe will now have to first conquer their way down to the coast of Iberia, Southern Italy, or go through Mallorca or Sardinia, before they will be able to reach the shores of Africa. This should give the realms in Africa some time before the Europeans attempt to make their way onto the continent.

As for Mali. The area has about twice the number of provinces compared to what they had before. This in turn allows for more than just the lonely kingdom of Mali to exist, which has been split into the three kingdoms of Ghana, Mali and Songhay. One kingdom for each of the major powers that inhabited the area during the timeframe of the game. They’ll all still be part of the empire of Mali, which is finally no longer the only empire with a single De Jure kingdom.

03_updated_mali.png


Here is an overview of the De Jure kingdoms:

04_west_african_kingdoms.png


Updating the existing parts of the map is not the only thing we’ve done for Africa however. Kanem-Bornu and the region around lake Chad is now on the map as well! The area consists of the two kingdoms Hausaland and Kanem. These consist of three and four duchies respectively and together form the empire of Kanem-Bornu. So not only do we get new rulers and titles to play with, but it allows both east and west to move across the continent without always having to expand north and, usually, through a Muslim blob that more often than not forms in Northern Africa and Arabia. Instead, you’ll be able to cross Africa through Ghana/Mali in the west, through the Sahara and the Fezzan corridor in the center, and finally through Wadai and Abyssinia in the east.

05_kanem_bornu.png


Let’s not stop there though.

To make Africa more distinct from other regions, a second trade route has been added to the game; the Trans-Saharan Trade Route.

06_trade_route.png


It requires either Horse Lords or Jade Dragon to be unlocked and functions very much like the updated Silk Road from 2.8. There is however, a certain twist to it. The base value of the trade route is very low. Granting next to no bonuses to the counties it passes through. What you need to do in order to benefit from it, is to control certain locations along the trade route and construct unique production buildings in established trade posts. To be clear though, these are merely special buildings within the trade posts just like you would upgrade a trade post on the Silk Road. These buildings represent some of the trade goods that historically had a large impact on the trade in the region. The most important of these will be the Gold Mines.

08_gold_mine.png


There are two Gold Mines located on the map, both of them in the kingdom of Mali. The Gold Mines will allow Mali to amass great wealth. Just like they did historically. If you would prefer to do it differently and take the mines from them, conquering Africa will very much be worth the effort. Not only will Gold Mines greatly increase the value of the Trans-Saharan trade, it will also grant the owner a large bonus to the county’s income. There will also be some flavour events that can trigger for anyone owning them.

Remember that what I’ve shown here is still a work in progress and things may be subject to change. Now, let’s wrap up the dev diary with some smaller additions.

We’ve renamed the West African religion to simply “African”, as to not exclude the newly added region around lake Chad, and updated the Patron Deities accordingly. The religion will also get a new set of shields for displaying the CoAs on the map.

african_shields.jpg


I hope that you look forward to these changes and the overall improvements for Africa!
 
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ok i am Losing My sh.. as a player that tend to love to play the underdogs and create a republic out of one of the mande dynasty to fight the sultan of andalusia or badshah of hispania This is just perfect not to mention the new extra counties to conquer on my way to control nubia and the silk road. the only downside is that the african religion lack secret societies but whateve TAKE MY MONEY
 
Should we get nomadic gouvernment rulers in this area? What do you think?

emlYNlo.jpg
Steppe nomad mechanics wouldn't work for them.
Although it may be weird, I agree with both these posts.

There should be some kind of nomadic government for these areas, because neither the iqta, nor tribal mechanics really fit there. But at the same time, neither do the Horde mechanics for steppe nomads fit this region.
There should be another nomadic form of government.... and the devs are aware of such project for almost two years now. However, they have been always saying there isn't enough time for such a concept.

My take: nomads can settle, or their territories can get conquered, and then those sparsely populated wastelands can become feudal holdings filled to the brim with cities overflowing with rich markets and advanced universities.

I can understand the idea of nomads in the wasteland, and can imagine the nomads of Siberia and the deserts of Arabia getting similar representation, but then the wastelands wouldn't remain wastes.
Nomads should be able to settle, but only in regions which allow it. For instance in the steppe regions and/or the desert this shouldn't be possible for them.
Those provinces should somehow be locked, or it should be very hard to enable anybody to transform them into feudal or any other government. I have already outlined it together with the concept of desert nomads, but I think I made already enough self-promo about it... if not, just check my signature.


Mayby new semi-nomadic government form? I've seen something like this in some mod.
I could say I still keep dreaming about some sort of semi-nomadic government, or rather a desert-nomadic government. But, as said above, since the devs have been saying for 2 years that there is no time, we can see all these other new governments like in Jade Dragons, large overhauls of major mechanics like in HF, extensive map changes like those in patches of both those last 2 DLCs, and yet nothing even touching the muslim world (except those desperately necessary map changes), there are only 2 possible solutions:
Either 1) they don't care and don't mind having the biggest neighbours of Europeans this neglected, or 2) they plan one more DLC which would flesh out this region.

They'd be much different than Mongol-style nomads, and there would usually be fewer of them; even today there are only about three million Tuaregs, and quite a few are semi-sedentary or outright settled. Berber tribes like the desert Sanhaja didn't have Khagans or form vast empires, nor did they often mob up into huge horde armies. Tribal is probably a better estimation of what the Sahara was like, especially if those Saharan counties are very weak. The Steppe, remember, is a vast and fertile grassland on which the Turco-Mongolic-Tungusic-Siberian-whatevertheheck nomads grazed their herds. The Sahara is mostly sand dotted with oases, and your typical Saharan Berber group would wander a lot more, usually moving with their herds to find water and shade and somewhere for the camels and goats to eat, and then staying awhile.
I have strong temptation to self-promo my DLC suggestion for Desert tribes and Africa, but I should resist...
Anyways, the desert nomads should absolutely work differently than those in the steppe. I even tried to apply that form of government in a mod, but it isn't good.

If a good mechanic is implemented, it could nicely represent the splits between various Berber tribal confederations.
It's an interesting pro/con balance. On the one hand, you can never really develop/urbanize the same as your feudal rivals, but you'll always have exclusive access to the wasteland - and the safety and trade values therein. Settle, and you lose the ability to exploit the wastes, but gain the advantage of settling.

With reworked wastelands, it could be cool.
I believe that wastelands could be locked to certain forms of government and should only be able to be switched if their original nomadic owner changes his government somewhere else. I even think that if nomadic ruler (either the one in the steppe or the one of the desert) conquers a sedentary kingdom, moves his capital there and then changes his government (settle), the originally nomadic provinces should/could rebel against this change and try to stick to their old ways... and only if heavily defeated, the victorious ruler might be able to change the governments of those provinces into something else.

At first when we were talking about all these map changes, I was worried that it was spelling the end of CK2 and these were changes to clean up all the old requests that people had. But seeing ALL the many changes you guys are making, it now feels like you’re laying a foundation for many future expansions. Thank you all for your hard work and I’m really excited to see the further evolution of the game!
I wish the bolded part was true!

Actually this thread keeps surprising me about the amount of people expressing their joy about this African rework and their wish to even buy a DLC dedicated to this continent.

I have been trying to convince the community and the devs that if Africa gets fleshed out, the people would find it interesting and would want to play there. I'm glad that this thread shows that those who oposed the idea od African DLC are in fact using the circular argument: People don't want to play Africa, and then it makes no sense to waste resources on it. Sure, as long as you keep Africa totally neglected and uninteresting, nobody cares about it. But once you flesh it out, people will start to be interested. But despite being convinced about this, the intensity and the number of those reactions keeps astonishing me.
 
I have been trying to convince the community and the devs that if Africa gets fleshed out, the people would find it interesting and would want to play there.
Let's just say that while I've checked out dev diaries on and off, this is the first time I've ever kept track of all 31* pages religiously.
 
Let's just say that while I've checked out dev diaries on and off, this is the first time I've ever kept track of all 31* pages religiously.
Not sure if I understood well...
There have been people quoting that thread here and there in the DDs and there were times I was almost sure that some people just knew that if there is a thread about Africa or Maghreb, it is only question of time before I jump in with some self-promo...and since the devs have actually replied in that thread almost 2 years ago, saying that they know about it and find its ideas interesting... (especially mentioning the tribal mechanics (for desert nomads)), I became less active in self-promotion of this concept.. and instead only tried to develop it.
As for this thread, I have tried to restrain myself from posting about the Qabila as long as possible...

But I really don't want this DD thread to be about my DLC concept.. just wanted to mention it. We can discuss those things there maybe? Or there are other ideas too and it is always good to learn about them too

EDIT: actually I think the 5th post of this very thread speaks about some kind of reputation mentioned above:
This is really awesome.

@elvain will be VERY happy about this update.
 
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I'm of two minds when it comes to further content. On the one hand, I agree that more stuff is great and some aspects of the game could stand to be fleshed out more. At the same time I really want development of CK2 to be over if only so that work on CK3 can begin. A sequel would be better than any number of DLC, as it would be able to revamp faulty mechanics and create a better base for further improvement. That's Islam's better chance for a do-over, methinks.
 
i try again tho have a possible response in case of a moderators or developer check this tread thank you please

i have many question for any moderators or developers who watch this tread thank you please

question 1:
hello i don't know if that haven been request but could you ad a kingdom title between morocco and tunisia since there was historical dynasty/kingdom (like in antiquity with numidia) who ruled the region (central maghreb) independently such as the hammadid dynasty or the zayyanid dynasty ?. and according to french wikipedia the central maghreb region was called maghreb-al-awsat (a separate region between morocco and tunisia ?) so way not :eek:?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammadid_dynasty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Tlemcen
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maghreb_central (french wikipedia sorry)

question 2:
could you ad a mixed/melting pot "maghrebi" culture (or algerian,tunisian,morrocan like in eu 4) (since if don't get wrong the hilalians and maqil arabs tribes invaders created a culture melting pot with native berbers in some region) ?

question 3:
why there is no algerian/central maghreb-saharan province ?

question 4:
i don't know if this is really historical but a kingdom title in libya (like in eu 4 with kingdom of fezzan and the fordable one: kingdom of tripolitania) ?

question 5:
are we are getting new face pack/portrait pack for the maghreb region (or all of n.africa including egypt ?) or is this only a map change ?

question 6:
way there is no coastline province for sub-saharian kingdom ?

question 7:
should there by one or several desert province/corridor between egypt and nubia/abyssinia ?

question 8:
should there by some sort of maraboutic/sufi islam in mostly saharan/sub-saharan province ?

question 9:
if coptic culture is confirmed should egypt get a third "sa'idi" culture (for both muslim and christian) ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa'idi_people

question 10:
do you gonna change something to berbers culture (breakup intro various "minors" groups such as the kabyle or the riffian ? or "great" group such as the zenata and the sanhaja ?)

question 11:
sorry if this not related tho the topic (and than i shouldn't no post it ?) but could you ad an iraqi culture ? since in my own opinion i don't see any reason o_O for the region tho be levantine (like in eu 4 where the region is mashriqi culture and the levant is syrian culture if i don't get wrong)

question 12:
are we are getting new face pack/portrait for the new region (as well as the old) in "black africa" ?

question 13:
do we gonna get any musical/songs expansions for north africa and black africa ?

question 14:
is berbers who are still pagans (early start date) will have the renamed "african" religion or new historical religion "berbers paganism" ?

and thank you please for you response and also sorry for my english and please excuse me if there is too much question :)
 
Dude, stop. Trust me, the devs can see your post. Posting more will simply make it more likely they won't respond.
 
@dark-mysterio
Although I agree with some of your questions, would like to have them answered and maybe even could answer some (though I don't feel like I should),
just let me remind you that if you have posted a long set of questions 5 times and nobody has answered it, posting it 6th, 7th... and neither 10th time won't make anyone answer it.

If the time for the questions comes, they will be answered. If not, they won't.

EDIT: Sorry, ninja'd
 
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You know I always see a lot of talk about adding the Swahili Coast, how exactly would that work? Wouldn’t they have to stretch the entire map southward and leave a lot of it desolate? Also I think miaphysite central Africa is a real possibility with the Nubians state now open to expansion “.
 
You know I always see a lot of talk about adding the Swahili Coast, how exactly would that work? Wouldn’t they have to stretch the entire map southward and leave a lot of it desolate? Also I think miaphysite central Africa is a real possibility with the Nubians state now open to expansion “.

While in theory, I'd love to see the Swahili coast added. For the practical reasons you mentioned, I don't think it'd work well. If they do extend the map south, I'd prefer to see it extended to about Mogadishu. That way the top part of the East African coastal trade network gets represented, Ethiopia and Mali aren't up against the edge of the map, and not too much waste land is added.

edit: grammar
 
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You know I always see a lot of talk about adding the Swahili Coast, how exactly would that work? Wouldn’t they have to stretch the entire map southward and leave a lot of it desolate? Also I think miaphysite central Africa is a real possibility with the Nubians state now open to expansion “.
Yeah so? Empty wasteland is empty it doesn't contribute to lag. It will also allow them to give west Africa and northern east Africa real borders at natural boundaries rather than just have a dozen provinces pressing directly up against the border of the play area. Also since they are distorting the map anyway they could bend the coast that really should be going South to go South West. That way they could squeeze in more swahilo coast while pushing the map less to the South. The coast is often like that on european period maps because Europeans vastly underestimated the size of Africa.

Edit: maps using the ptolmaic "projection" are like this as I understand it.

While in theory, I'd love to see the Swahili coast added. For the practical reasons you mentioned, I don't think it'd work well. If they do extend the map south, I'd prefer to see it extended to about Mogadishu. That way the top part of the East African coastal trade network gets represented, Ethiopia and Mali aren't up against the edge of the map, and not too much waste land is added.

edit: grammar
Would it be that much wasteland though? There are some.pretty big wastelands on the map already. Tibet used to be a wasteland. The Siberian wastes is a huge wasteland (granted because of projection but because of projection africa would always be smaller than it is)
 
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This is AWESOME I've been waiting for Africa to get some love. It's really cool that they're adding those Trade Posts where the gold mines were too. Don't forget the salt mines in the north that put Timbuktu on the map. There should definitely be a Trade Post there as well. During this time period, salt was arguably just as valuable as gold at this point in history.
The increased number of provinces and holdings slots should be a significant buff all by itself. But as mentioned in the dev diary, the number of sea provinces have been increased in the Mediterranean, so that the Europeans won't be able to gain access to Africa as easily as before. This should give the realms more time to grow stronger.
Can something also be done about the French hopping from France to the Mallorca islands down into Valencia and Holy warring their way through Iberia? This happens more often than it should...
Egypt has received a slight update. Otherwise Egypt and East Africa has mostly received tweaks and adjustments to the province borders. So nothing as major as the rest of Africa. I might revisit it and make some smaller additions if there is time to do so.
So there's no chance of us getting more cultures in Abyssenia...? It would be cool if we could add actual cultures like Tigray, Oromo, Amhara or at least the cultures in EU4. "Ethiopian" isn't a single unified culture. I think it just means "burnt face" in Greek...
 
During this time period, salt was arguably just as valuable as gold at this point in history
Nothing arguable about it there are documents which list the exchange rate of salt in mali in this period as 1:1. Salt is litterally worth it's weight in gold.
And it's not surprising. People need salt to live especially if they sweat a lot. There is no salt down in the rainforests but several of the gold mines are down there. And you sweat a lot when mining gold in a rainforest.
 
Yeah so? Empty wasteland is empty it doesn't contribute to lag. It will also allow them to give west Africa and northern east Africa real borders at natural boundaries rather than just have a dozen provinces pressing directly up against the border of the play area. Also since they are distorting the map anyway they could bend the coast that really should be going South to go South West. That way they could squeeze in more swahilo coast while pushing the map less to the South. The coast is often like that on european period maps because Europeans vastly underestimated the size of Africa.

Edit: maps using the ptolmaic "projection" are like this as I understand it.


Would it be that much wasteland though? There are some.pretty big wastelands on the map already. Tibet used to be a wasteland. The Siberian wastes is a huge wasteland (granted because of projection but because of projection africa would always be smaller than it is)
Oh I was just asking and wondering if it’s worth changing the whole map projection if a lot of it would be wasteland.
 
Oh I was just asking and wondering if it’s worth changing the whole map projection if a lot of it would be wasteland.
For the Swabili coast alone? Probably not. For the Swahili coast and letting west and east Africa get better borders? I'd say so. But I'm guessing the devs won't not this late in the cycle. Quite frankly if they were going to do it they'd have done it in an Africa DLC. And with this stuff getting bundled in with holy fury im guessing they axed a planned Africa DLC.
In fact I think they are just about done with ck2 and the reson HF improves so manhyplaces is that those are the places where no more dlcs will touch any ideas they had got bundled in with HF. So that pretty much just leaves germany for the very last DLC. That said i could be wrong HF might be the last one and Köln may remain on the wrong side of the rhein, but it does seem that the map in Germany is far behind by now so I hope they fix it before they move on from ck2.
 
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