Werewolf CCXXVII: The Nomination of Associate Justice Andersson

[reis91]

I didn't bother thinking much about who might be on my side when subbing in. Also, why would I turn against you guys when you're by far the stronger pack?

At the time, we were only 2 wolves up. This can quickly fall apart with some bad luck. Plus, there was no need. I considered sharing more info (and I told him we had received a cursed wolf, though I didn't say who).

 

[Cliges]

It got deleted. It was a post about fake JLing. Cliges had pondered trying to fake JLing. I then posted about how that was a poor idea and managed to post that in thread by mistake.

No, I meant being suspected JL. Not a fake one.

Fuck 7x was a fun moment.

 

[reis91]

It's amazing how much ire I drew by actually pointing out to the village the best possible course of action from it's own perspective - which was to leave the last Nay wolf alive and focus on finding the Aye wolves.

 

[k-59]

It's amazing how much ire I drew by actually pointing out to the village the best possible course of action from it's own perspective - which was to leave the last Nay wolf alive and focus on finding the Aye wolves.

I still think you're wrong about that

 

[alynkio]

Wow! I was embarrassingly wrong about everything. I guess a dose of humiliation is good every now and then.

 

[THE_SPLIT]

Can someone in plain English post what happened???
Non of this Cliges fancy talk??
Ryzs sorry the moment that a player was booted for info you should have known that the jig was up.
Either that or reveal the info publicly....
No need to take sides.... The village wants to know what the wolfs know.

 

[reis91]

So, we lynch Johho the Nay wolf. Aye's hunt that night, then they hunt the next, and the next, and eventually they hit a cursed or a goodie scanner. Nobody is able to hunt the Aye's so they can focus 100% on looking good instead of having to worry about looking too good and attracting a hunt from the Nay wolf. That's the correct villager play that maximizes winning chances and makes life more difficult for the Ayes.

Now, I only did it when I reckoned that Johho wouldn't be lynched - but still it is strange that the village prosecutes a wolf for proposing the best village play merely because it is not fully orthodox.

 

[Spockyt]

Wow! I was embarrassingly wrong about everything. I guess a dose of humiliation is good every now and then.

Now you know what it’s like for me every game.

 

[randakar]

No. The second seer and priest was dead then randy would have been decried sorc app. (Assuming Jackson was sorc and not seer like we thought.)

What on Earth did I have to do with anything? I was really just a bystander there

The full details of this mess are yet unclear to me, but I think a number of points should be remembered. Firstly, it is traditional that if the GM makes a mistake, the mistake is kept. While I think this was written with more public mistakes in mind, I think that it is generally wisest to not interfere, even if it unbalances the game, because the nature of the Big is that it is difficult to fully swing in one side's favor, even if they have inside info. If it is absolutely necessary to interfere, it is wisest to consult with the experienced, even for one as experienced as you, Rysz, before doing anything.

This.

Wait, the mistake that caused all of this was Jacksonian's mistake? Not the GM's, a player's? Then absolutely the game should not have ended. If a player makes a mistake, that sucks for them and their side, but the GM should not interfere at all, certainly not go around removing roles and killing the game.

Yup. There was this recruitment PM for a different game. Let me look it up.

Well I suspected you (and I feel somewhat smug about the fact that I was right about you and Reis) but I was getting increasingly unsure because so few people suspected you.

I really wanted to give wagon a chance to live for a while this game. Wasn't going to consider him as a wolf just yet. As for Reis.. his behavior was markedly different from last game to the point I was wondering what was up, that he was reverting to the old Reis

 

[randakar]

It really was a shame, yesterday we had a lot of fun. This game could have been something.
This experiment needs a retry.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Wow! I was embarrassingly wrong about everything. I guess a dose of humiliation is good every now and then.

Not sure if you have noticed, but last night you put Claude two in front of Reis with one or two minutes to go. That effectively meant Reis wouldn't hang. Had somebody made a TIE anyway and Reis failed the snipe then you'd have been run up ASAP.

Can someone in plain English post what happened???

Jackson was a scanner. He accidentally posted scan result and new scan order in the wrong PM. Only villagers were in it at the time though, so no big harm done. Last night one of those villagers was turned and immediately told the Ayes about Jackson's slip. The ayes sets hunts based on that new info and the game gets called.

 

[Wagonlitz]

What on Earth did I have to do with anything? I was really just a bystander there

You posted just before Jackson made the slip. Hence we assumed that you were his apprentice and he thought he was in the JL convo and not the dark cult recruitment one.
It kinda followed how the reason I accidentally posted wolf stuff as the second post on page 35 was that Reis had the first post on page 35 and hence I didn't realise until after having posted that it was the wrong place. Hence we figured Jackson had done the same. Seen his app post just before him, not realise he was in the wrong PM, and then post it. Hence you had to be his app and hence should be priority for the hunt.

This experiment needs a retry.

I fully agree.

 

[aedan777]

This game will have to end.
I'm terribly sorry.

Something happened in the beginning of the game that could seriously disrupt the game. It was clear it was a real mistake and not an attempt to trick other players. It was not a mistake that was open to everyone (as the PM-title-screenshot in the previous game), but known only to a few players.

I had two options at that point. End the game or let the mistake have results which would upset the balance of the game, while this game was setup in a very specific way to see how such a game would go (the "lite" setup with no protection, limited traits, etc.).

But I thought I saw a third option. The slipup by itself did not give too much information except for the fact that said player was scanner (but not what kind of scanner). I thought that I could sitll repair this. There were at that point still possibilities due to some lucky allignment.

I was mistaken. It was dependent on the players involved not trying to use this slip-up. One of the players who had just this bit tiny more info did try to use this slip-up and tried to analyse more info out of it, even though most conclusions were wrong. In that case it would even disrupt more. I tried to stop him, but was unsuccesful.

Sorry most to Randakar, who I had really wanted to give a setup that he would enjoy.

So, if I have this right what what you obliquely hint at here, and Wagon and others have said subsequently, this is the chain of events-

1. Jacksonian (a scanner of some kind) sends a scan order in the wrong chat, revealing to a select group of players that he is a scanner.
2. You removed Jacksonian's role from this game as a result, because otherwise... a select group of players would know he was a scanner?
3. Because someone involved in that convo was later turned into a wolf and tried to use that information, you ended the whole game because "the balance" was upset by a player using information available to them.

and somewhere in between you also (apparently) tried to stop K-59 from using said information. I don't know how direct you were, but the Gm should not be directing the players to do or not to do something.

If this is indeed what happened, this is some of the worst GMing I've ever seen. You don't end a game because a behind the scenes error by a player threatens to interfere with "the balance." If the wolves set a hunt on the seer night 0, would you have ended the game then? No rules were broken at any point by this (as I understand it), but you still killed a player and role, and then ended the game.

Now it's within the rights of a GM to do as they wish with a game. But I cannot, under any circumstance, approve of a GM who ends a game because it develops in a way not to their liking. Sometimes players make mistakes, sometimes things don't go as planned. but to declare the game over as a result is simply petulant.

 

[randakar]

 

[randakar]

The above is what I sent to Rysz at that point. Just to inform him, not to actually cause him to intervene or anything.

 

[Arkasas]

It was Jackson's mistake, and thus Jackson's problem. You shouldn't have interfered. I know that you want to prevent your game from being screwed up by forces beyond your control; I have faced similar situations while GMing, but you should really not interfere because of a player mistake.

 

[randakar]

You posted just before Jackson made the slip. Hence we assumed that you were his apprentice and he thought he was in the JL convo and not the dark cult recruitment one.

That was just a coïncidence though. In fact, my PM to K-59 yesterday should have made it clear enough that I am not involved with any behind the scenes JL..

 

[randakar]

BTW, that scan results also meant I wasn't too keen on lynching Johho..

 

[Wagonlitz]

Jacksonian (a scanner of some kind) sends a scan order in the wrong chat, revealing to a select group of players that he is a scanner.

We also knew Jackson had scanned johho a villager, but yes, that was what we knew. Jackson being a scanner of some sort (66% chance he was one we would want dead), that johho was scanner villager to him, and that he had wanted to scan Jerman, the later outed wolf.

I don't know how direct you were, but the Gm should not be directing the players to do or not to do something.

Here's the entirety of the new wolf PM. Also, yes, I didn't realise Jackson had been outright scuttled until k-59 asked what removed meant.

Hello, Meet the new Aye Pack.

k-59 was Cursed, and is now a Werewolf with the Aye Pack

Booya!

Though, Rysz, you are aware you can add people to a PM and that the limit is 6? So k-59 can be added to the old one. Personally I think that would be better as then he can see past discussion plus having different pack PMs can be a bit confusing at times, too.

Nope, nope, kill me instead.

Oh boy...

You don't like the pack?

Hello.

I'd like to extend my apologies for ordering the hunt on you, I thought I was possibly getting lynched and did not have time to write a conditional order because you would be somewhat doublecleared after you got me lynched.

Still, I maintain that you were right for the wrong reasons.

Also Jackson is probably a scanner. I sent him, randy, E_L Spockt, and Lemeard a PM begging for them to sub into the dark cult game and JM sent this

"Johho scanned villager.

Scan JermanTK"

to it by mistake

Oh wait probably the seer since Jerman was outed. I haven't been paying a ton of attention to this game.

Also Randy sent me a PM just now pishing to see if I had more info about Johho.

Oh. Yeah I guess whoever subbed for Jackson needs to die ASAP
How many people saw that reply, though? Because that might be a bit risky if people can realise you saw and then had him hunted.


Also at least k-59 and Reis have perfect alibis against each other.

Safe to assume everyone in the PM did. JM didn't try to edit or delete it.

Also I'm thinking JM probably had an app because he said Johho scanned as a villager, possibly in that PM leading to his confusion. Randy sent the last message before JM's graf sooo.

Ok. Hunting Jackson might give you problems, then. I think hunting him is worth it, though. But what do you think?

Guys, please don't overuse that slip by Jackson. Remember that you only see that Johho is a scanned Villager, but since you don't know the type of scanner that information is useless. There is no sigh whether JermanTK was scanned or not.

Also I'm thinking JM probably had an app because he said Johho scanned as a villager, possibly in that PM leading to his confusion. Randy sent the last message before JM's graf sooo.

Oh. Yeah that's a possibility.

Or he messed up in the same way I did yesterday. Had two windows open, closed one without thinking, and then proceeded to post in the wrong because the person you replied to posted just above. (I posted wolf plots in the game thread at the top of page 35, just after Reis' post... In which case Randy indeed would be a good bet for app.)

Guys, please don't overuse that slip by Jackson. Remember that you only see that Johho is a scanned Villager, but since you don't know the type of scanner that information is useless. There is no sigh whether JermanTK was scanned or not.

That's true. We know he's a scanner, though.

Guys, please don't overuse that slip by Jackson. Remember that you only see that Johho is a scanned Villager, but since you don't know the type of scanner that information is useless. There is no sigh whether JermanTK was scanned or not.

That's an incredibly inappropriate thing for you to say.

No, I treated this is a meta-slip which I could still contain withouth braking the game.
But only if those involved would not use it to try to analyse more information then from what they thought is in there.
Note that Jacksonian is no longer in the game.

It's clear he's a scanner. Sure, we can't know which, but there's a 66% chance it's one we want dead.

Also sending PMs to the wrong guy has happened before and that's just what happens. Generally the GM shouldn't really interfere there as that risks ruining more than it helps.

No, I treated this is a meta-slip which I could still contain withouth braking the game.
But only if those involved would not use it to try to analyse more information then from what they thought is in there.
Note that Jacksonian is no longer in the game.

There is no rule that says people can only reply in PMs marked to be about werewolf. For all we know JM could have been intentionally trying to bait someone in that PM into hunt him. You are now trying to influence the actions of living players which is not what the GM should do under any circumstance.

Wait a second? What does removed by the GM mean???

You can't disappear someone from the game. What sort of kangaroo game is this?

I wonder if that means some random villager was given the scanning role Jackson had.

Guys, please don't overuse that slip by Jackson. Remember that you only see that Johho is a scanned Villager, but since you don't know the type of scanner that information is useless. There is no sigh whether JermanTK was scanned or not.

Yeah, that was a bit poor form I agree, but this is also starting to be a somewhat active GM interference which isn't good either. Just let it play out like Capibara did last game.

Also, as far as I can tell from the roster post, he was just removed, not autolynched or anything. That's not really orthodox GM practice. Look, I understand you wanting to keep his role secret for setup reasons, but couldn't you have someone subbing into his place or just secretly give his role to someone else (not exactly kosher but it wouldn't affect the flow of the game).

 

[Wagonlitz]

That was just a coïncidence though. In fact, my PM to K-59 yesterday should have made it clear enough that I am not involved with any behind the scenes JL..

He thought you were on a fishing trip.

BTW, that scan results also meant I wasn't too keen on lynching Johho..

So the villagers benefited too.