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Maria Gimbutas
The Slavic movement to the north was an external manifestation of instability in southern Russia and reflected changes in the ethnic structure.
The constant invasions of the Pechenegs, Bulgars and especially the Avars, who in the first half of the 6th century reached the border of dense forests along the Desna River and the upper reaches of the Oka, ended with the penetration of the Slavs into the lands of the Western Balts and Finno-Ugrians, where they almost did not meet with due resistance.
By the year 400 n. e. Intensive trade between the Balts and the Finno-Ugrians, which flourished in the 4th century, was interrupted. Some hill settlements and fortifications that were in the Baltic region were abandoned, in others, destruction caused by fires is visible. The surviving remnants of the settlements testify to the decline of material culture, being indirect evidence of the hardships that fell upon the Baltic tribes.

The first signs of Slavic expansion to the north have not yet been sufficiently confirmed by archaeological finds. Too insignificant was the number of burials and settlements. However, isolated barrows and settlements appeared here and there, similar to those found in the area of Kiev and Volyn and even in the Slavic lands of Central Europe, which cannot be considered Baltic. It seems that the territory between Kiev and Novgorod between the V and VIII centuries was consistently occupied by various tribal groups.

Settlements consisting of semi-underground dwellings (dugouts) with clay floors and walls, funeral accessories in round, conical or oblong mounds, wooden structures located inside the mounds, rough and polished ceramics similar to products from the Kiev and Volyn region, as well as from Bohemia and Moravians, became distinctive elements of Slavic culture, spread in the lands located north of Kiev and Voronezh.

A number of similar burials and settlements were found in Volhynia, in the Middle Dnieper region and in the region of the upper Don near Voronezh, they date from the 6th to the 9th century and are undoubtedly recognized as Slavic. They are referred to as “Prague-type settlements” in Volyn, “hilly fortifications of Romensky type” (located along the lower reaches of the Desna), along the Seim, Sula and Vorsk-la rivers and “Borschevsky type fortifications on the upper Don and Upper Oka.

Separate differences in the types of burials indicate that they could relate to several Western tribes, Drevlyane, meadows and Vyatichi. Information about them has been preserved from the time of the first historical records. The dating of early burials and villages is based solely on a comparison of their ceramics with that known from finds in Bohemia and Moravia, and makes it possible to attribute these burials and settlements to the 6th — 7th centuries. If some of the kurgans and hill fortifications can even be dated to the 5th century, it is obvious that further research is also needed. Indeed, no metal objects of the corresponding time were found in the burials.

Early signs of the Slavs' presence in the north were found in the territory of Pskov, in the east of Estonia and Latvia, and south of Lake Peipsi, in the Great River Basin. Long, narrow burial mounds with cremation graves and very rare burial utensils, identified as belonging to the Krivichy tribe, were found here.

Dating back to the 5th century is based on finds of round and convex ornamented bronze plates, tweezers and bracelets, thinned to the ends. Similar patterns are found in Finno-Ugric stone mounds in Estonia. Most likely, the first Krivichi occupied the hill settlement in Pskov, and their culture superimposed on the Finno-Ugric stratum of the so-called Dyakovsky type, and the unfortified settlements located along the headwaters of the Great River replaced the Baltic hill settlements with smooth and rough ceramics. In these settlements, there are ceramics and metal objects of this type, which are found in long barrows.

It is strange that the first mounds and settlements attributed to this tribe are located so far in the north, and not in the upper reaches of the Dvina River and in the territories of Smolensk and Polotsk, where Krivichy are observed from the 7th to the 13th century. It is obvious that during their expansions they did not use the Dnieper route, most likely coming through the upper reaches of the Neman River and through the lands of the carriers of the Baltic comb ceramics.

Nevertheless, the few archaeological finds do not allow us to talk about the settlement of modern Eastern Belarus by Krivichy. However, there are certain linguistic evidence that suggests that it was from here that Krivichi were distributed. Say, these are early Slavic borrowings from the Baltic languages (for example, the name of the Meretz river from the Lithuanian Merkis, a tributary of the Upper Neman, which linguists refer to the 9th century) and the relationship between the early Pskov and Polish dialects.

In the modern districts of Smolensk and Polotsk, long krivich type mounds date back to VIII century, and only some attribute them to the earlier period. Many mounds in these areas contain exclusively Baltic finds of Latgale type. They date from the V-XII centuries. Even south of Smolensk, Moscow and Kaluga along the tributaries of the Zhizdra River and
upper reaches of the gums a number of excavated kurgans burials and fortifications of the Baltic type contains finds similar to those found in Eastern Latvia, or identical to them. Dated these objects even XII century.

With the help of archaeological finds one can definitely confirm the existence of the descendants of the Balts east of Moscow, on the territory located between Smolensk, Kaluga and Bryansk up to the XII century. Moreover, they can be correlated with the Galindian tribe, known from the Laurentian and Ipatiev Chronicles. They describe the wars between the Russian local rulers and the Galindians on the Protva River, which took place in the 11th — 12th centuries.

The invasions of the Slavs could not erase the Balts from the face of the earth. They continued to exist in the form of large and small associations for many centuries. It is very likely that before the Slavic tribes of Krivichy, Dregovich and Radimichi became predominant in the upper basin of the Dnieper, the Baltic population existed at this place, whose culture was close to the Latgals living in eastern Latvia.

It is obvious to us that from the moment of the Slavic invasion until the formation of three Slavic principalities: Novgorod, Ryazan and Kiev - in the 9th century, and even several centuries later, a significant number of Balts continued to live on the territory of modern Belarus and in the west of Great Russia.

The process of Slavicization began in prehistoric times and continued until the XIX century. Belarusians borrowed a lot of words, mostly from everyday language, mostly from Lithuanian peasant vocabulary. The ethnography of the districts of Kaluga, Moscow, Smolensk, Vitebsk, Polotsk and Minsk right up to the middle of the XIX century clearly indicates its Baltic character. Indeed, the Slavicization of the Western Balts seized most of the population of the modern territory of Belarus and part of Great Russia.
 
Yeah, 4th century CE is no longer prehistory, even for eastern Europe.
It depends how we define prehistory. For me it's before the written sources were available. In the case of Eastern Europe 4th century AD is still prehistorythen, because we have such first ones dated on maybe 9th-10th century.
 
It depends how we define prehistory. For me it's before the written sources were available. In the case of Eastern Europe 4th century AD is still prehistorythen, because we have such first ones dated on maybe 9th-10th century.

In the case of the OP it's, "Whatever time period makes us all Slavs" though.

Also, OP, you can't just quote giant blocks of text with zero explanation and leave that as an argument or even a discussion point.
 
In the case of the OP it's, "Whatever time period makes us all Slavs" though.

Also, OP, you can't just quote giant blocks of text with zero explanation and leave that as an argument or even a discussion point.
The text of Gimbutas basically coincides with the Dating of the migration of the Slavs. Most massively after the defeat of the Kaganate in 796.
But evidence that Obodrits obeyed Kagan no, they fled during the Troubles in 630. The Balts lived before the Obodrit relocation or returned the land and resettled. In the game with CK2, the Obodrits are extremely fast, unhistorically eaten. I think, in fact, this would not have happened while Kaganat was alive.
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I am not a pan-Slavist, but a supporter of realism. Can you create the Baltic provinces in Poland and in the lands of the North-East of Russia, by the way, why is there no empire of the Great Baltic, or revival? So it would be historically correct. There is also no Galinda tribe in the east of Moscow.
Tariq Ibn Ziyad defeated the Visigoths in 711. The culture of the provinces of Russia could be made Baltic, as in Spain Visigoth. Novgorod culture do the Vepsa or Izhora.
Novgorod - translated as a new city, then before such a city was not. Slovene of Ilmen settled apparently after the defeat of Charlemagne
 
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The text of Gimbutas basically coincides with the Dating of the migration of the Slavs. Most massively after the defeat of the Kaganate in 796.
No. Gimbutas write, literally, that slavs attacked baltic lands from prehistory, and destroyed balto-finnic uniformity in 4th century. I cited what I cited because reason.
Avar Kaganate wasn't a thing until 562. For the reference, it's 6th century. So two centures before Avars came to Pannonia, slavs already fought baltes, which mean they, ahm, existed and were presented wildly enough.

Novgorod - translated as a new city, then before such a city was not. Slovene of Ilmen settled apparently after the defeat of Charlemagne
Yes. Novgorod dated to 9th century best. So?..

Balts lived before the Obodrit relocation or returned the land and resettled.
...and after relocation. Slavs and balts (in a lot of places) were neighbors. So?..

I am not a pan-Slavist, but a supporter of realism.
For now, you defending some kind of thesises I can't formulate strictly. You're defending "baltic harem theory" - well, I know linguistics enough to disagree. Still, I can't say what else do you defending.
Can you make a list, without citing walls of text, just list of thesises you're trying to defend?
 
No. Gimbutas write, literally, that slavs attacked baltic lands from prehistory, and destroyed balto-finnic uniformity in 4th century. I cited what I cited because reason.
Gimbutas does not write about the causes of destruction in the 4th century. It was probably the Goth tribe. But the main part of the Balts was conquered in the 7-10 centuries. At the initial stage, Avar fortifications and lamellar armor are found. Of course the Balts could not resist such a force. But after the collapse of the Kaganat, the Balts destroyed one fortified point near the coast of Poland.

Yes. Novgorod dated to 9th century best. So?..
Yes

...and after relocation. Slavs and balts (in a lot of places) were neighbors. So?..
Yes


For now, you defending some kind of thesises I can't formulate strictly. You're defending "baltic harem theory" - well, I know linguistics enough to disagree. Still, I can't say what else do you defending.
Can you make a list, without citing walls of text, just list of thesises you're trying to defend?
I just brought a version of Kolomiytsev. I do not defend. But do not throw away the baby with water.
Theses:
1) Eastern Europe was occupied by the Balts,
2) The Slavs did not advance much until the arrival of the Avars,
3) Gepids, Lombards, Kutrigurs and Utigurs, suddenly adopted the language of the Slavs,
4) Avars crushed the power of the Roman Empire with a united, renewed force, carried out an expansion in the direction of the Balts
 
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I do not defend. But do not throw away the baby with water.
So, what do you defend?
My version of early slavic ethnogenesis is quite traditional.
  • Slavic birthplace is on north-west of modern Ukraine, somewhere in CK2 Chernigov. Desna and Dniepr. It was a continuum of baltic tribes, whose language was contaminated with iranic and germanic elements. They were numerous enough, and were vaguely spread from Baltic to Black Sea. Thanks to climat - so-called "roman optimum", they could exist and prosper without actual tech needed, therefore there is little archeological evidence.
  • When climat changed (and climatic pessimum happened), and Great Migrations started, slavs entered the same vacuum of places as northen balts did, fought for this territory, and antique sources never did a big difference. They were more intrested in a germanic, who came to modern Germany and to Balkans. Still, "civilized nations" falter this dates.
  • Then, when Huns entered the fray, they defeated Osthgothic protostate, which dominated "demarkation line" between slavic lands and Balkans. That's how Slavs get to Pannonia, Chzeh, Poland. Still, they met franks and, essentially, stopped. They were very, very spread, which created "multicentral" , and it was possible because no centralized power in the region really put an effort to prevent it. If some centralized power would want to destroy them, they would be destroyed; still, they were poor enough to prevent raiding (not it always helped, surely), and nobody really needed them dead. That happened somewhere in 4-5 century.
  • When, in 6th century, Avars came, they didn't raid slavs because it wasn't a lot to take from them. Of course, they used slavs as slaves, as a source of concubines and such, but it's not a lot you can take from some brokes, and, by Avar reasoning, surely slaves were brokes. I mean, they had quite better targets to raid and loot. So slavs became a source of pactiotic warriors as well. Main things Avars did for slavs - they closed slavs from western and southern pretenders.
  • After Avars were defeated, well, nothing exactly changed for slavs. They were settled in places they live before, and they never were too numerous to begin with. Western slavs came to symbiosis with western political systems (Poland, Czech); eastern and southern, who lived in a shadow of Steppe, met scandinavian traders (called Ruses) who traded for Arabian silver: selling furs and, primarly, slaves. In the 10th century this "trade companies" accumulate more and more power, and became princes at last. That's where we're speaking about Russian protostate.
  • Tale of Bygone Years and other chronicles should be taken with a nice pound of salt. They weren't scientific letters, they were legends, tales, some spreaded documents, with normal medieval tradition to "color" texts with details, accents, things like this. Surely, there were also (if somebody had clearence, surely - I mean, you couldn't just came to monastery as ask "give me this scroll please") chronicles author copied; do if they're mistaken, new chronicle would be as well..
 
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1) Eastern Europe was occupied by the Balts,
True, there was a time when EE was occupied by the Balts, no arguing here. It ended quite before Avars came - thanks to Germans. I believe you're not arguing German tribes in pre-Avar Eastern Europe?

2) The Slavs did not advance much until the arrival of the Avars,
Didn't advance where? In Southern Europe? Can't say so. In the north? Yes.

3) Gepids, Lombards, Kutrigurs and Utigurs, suddenly adopted the language of the Slavs,
Gepids were destroyed by combined effort of Lombards and Avars, Lombards still spoke Germanic languange when came to Italy, Bulgar language of Kutigurs and Utigurs was turkic. So nothing sudden here. Still, in my opinion there were a sizeable Slavic population in this lands, so, after Gepids, Lombards and turks were suffered a lot, it's quite natural they were assimilated. It's a mystery only if you don't believe in such a population.
Actually, the very slavinization of local tribes proves big slavic population. Avars had no reason to prefer slavic slaves to germanic, turkic or baltic, so it's doubtful it was their doing.

4) Avars crushed the power of the Roman Empire with a united, renewed force, carried out an expansion in the direction of the Balts
"In direction" - sure, but were they expanded into Balts territory? Or even let me say it another way: was this territory baltic in 558, or it was a germanic land with slavic presence from south; exact presence that would expand when Avars destroyed Germanic states?

You see, problem of "avars as a basic factor of slavic ethnogenesis" there are two problems.
1. If you don't believe in Slavic being widespread in 558, you give them only five centuries to came from small dispersed tribes in the east to the masters of Eastern Europe, which they achieve in the time of worse climate and with foreign conquerors. If you also defend a position that Slavs couldn't fight well, it means Avars somewhy prefered this small tribes to everybody else, and somewhy made a language of said small tribes their lingua franka.
2. Every slavic or supposedly slavic evidence before 558 became a mystery. It's ok to date things like "it's 5-6 century" if we believe in independent development of slavs, where Avars are one of factors, like Huns or Germans; but Avar came in some defined moment, so they couldn't influence things before.
 
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I... What is all this nonsense
 
I... What is all this nonsense
Slavic ethnogenesis and the role of the Avars

Started out in the CK2 forum, then got banished to the history forum

Don't let yourself be misled by nykyus crude English and his hair raising habit of posting self translated text walls pulled straight from ancient historical documents (instead of looking for an already existing, likely much better, English translation)

The debate itself is actually quite interesting.
 
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Every one has the right to his own opinion.
Especially in the such obscured case like origins of Slavs :)
 
CHRONICA POLONIAE MAIORIS

Prologue

In the name of the Lord God. Amen. Although the historians of [those] who are now called Poles (Poleni) from the [name] of the North Pole or otherwise from the fortress of Polany, located within the boundaries of the seashore, which they ruled, thanks to the testimony of written messages, they described the origin of kings quite eternally and the Polish princes (Regum et Principum Polonorum) and their deeds and bold exploits worthy of wonder, especially [this was done] by the venerable father Vincenty, who was once the bishop of Krakow, and many others, however, since commemorate some of the princes of Poland (Ducibus Polenie), mainly King Przemyslav and now ruling, and the sequence of his genealogy seems to be omitted, it is necessary to list his ancestors and call his ancestors and other princes and rulers of the Polish kingdom (Regni Rolonie) and designate the land . And so that the clear brevity of the description could perpetuate their appearance, I, with the help of God Almighty, began in a few words to describe everything that I learned from Polish historical annals about kings, rulers, princes and their descendants, everything that I learned from various metrics of various churches . I also studied and conveyed to the memory the oral traditions of the Polish elders, which dealt with military actions and exploits. [Begin statement] from the time of Assuer.

In the name of the Lord God. Amen. Although the historians of the Lechites, now called Poles (Poloni) from the name of the North Pole or otherwise the glades (Rolani) from the fortress of Polany, located within the coast, over which they ruled, thanks to the testimony of written reports described the origin of kings quite eternally and the princes of Poland and their deeds and daring deeds of wonder, especially [it was done] by the venerable father Vincenty, who was once the bishop of Cracow, and others, however, since they mention in their writings some of the princes of Wielkopolska (Maioris Polonie), mainly King Przemyslav, king of this land, and the sequence of his genealogy seems to be omitted, it is necessary to list his forebears and call his ancestors and other princes and rulers of the vast kingdom of Poles (Polonie), or lehity, and mark the land.

Since the Poles are also called lehits, one should find out why they are called by this name. In ancient books they write that Pannonia is the mother and the progenitor of all Slavic peoples, “Pan” (Pan), according to the interpretation of the Greeks and Slavs, is the one who owns everything. And according to this, “Pan” in Slavonic means “great master” (maior dominus), although in Slavonic, because of the large difference in languages, another word can be used, for example, “gentleman” (Gospodzyn), the priest (Xandz) is more than Pan, as if the leader (princeps) and the supreme king. All gentlemen are called "Pan", the leaders of the troops are called "voevodami" (woyeuody); these Pannonians, so named from Pan, are said to be descended from Jan, a descendant of Yafet. Of these, the first one, it is claimed, was this mighty Nimrod, who for the first time began to conquer his brothers and subordinate his domination.

So, from these Pannonians three brothers were born, the sons of Pan, the lords of the Pannonians, of whom the firstborn had the name Lech, the second - Rus, the third - Czech. These three, multiplied in the family, owned three kingdoms: Lechites, Russians and Czechs, also called Bohemians, and now own and will own in the future, how long it will be divine will; of these, the Lechites always possessed the highest authority and domination in the whole empire, as is evident from the chronicles and from their territory.

The Slavs have a great diversity in languages and at the same time they understand each other, although there are apparently some differences in some words and in their pronunciation. These languages originate from one father Slava, whence the Slavs (Slavs). They still do not cease to use this name, for example, Tomislav, Stanislav, Janislav, Wenceslav and others. They say that Nimrod originated from the same Glory. Nimrod in Slavonic means “Nemezha” (Nemerza), which is understood in Slavonic as “no peace” (pn pax) or “not measuring the world” (nen menursrans pacem), from which slavery began among people before all there was unshakable freedom. At first, he recklessly tried to subordinate his brothers to his power; the audacity of his recklessness brought the law of slavery not only on his brothers from the Slavic line, but also on the whole world.

Based on the foregoing, one can name four states of the Slavs, namely Pannonians, Lechites, Russians and Czechs or Bohemians. And, since subsequently “many other states and kingdoms of the Slavic people (Slavonice nacionis) appeared, it is worthy to communicate their names and explain them. The kingdom of the Bulgars takes its name from the Bulga River. In the same way, the kingdom of Raccia comes from the "rac" (Racz) (Ratsiya (Raška) - the medieval name of the Rashi or Serbian principality, and since 1217 - one of the parts of the Serbian kingdom), which means the trail of many horses gathered into one army. After all, from here the Slavs call a lot of riders "radio" The kingdom of Dalmatia is so called because the queen of the Pannonians gave this son of this seaside part to her son and ordered him to be crowned king. It is believed that this queen named Saba was from the South and came to listen to the wisdom of Solomon. And the Pannonian river is called Saba, and, as they say, it derives its name from it. It is also said that the kingdom of Dalmatia "dala macz", so to speak, gave the mother. Also, the Rany or Rans are so called because when confronted with enemies they usually shouted “Rany, Rany”, i.e. "Wounds, wounds." The sorabians also got their name from “sorban”, which can be interpreted in two ways: after all, the Gauls call this country Serviam (Serviam), wishing to say that the defeated Nimrod, they [the slaves] were [settled there] as his slaves. This, apparently, is devoid of foundation, since not only this small part of the Slavic root, but, rather, the entire Slavic people was considered dependent on it. It is more correctly believed that the Srabs were from Sarb, who also received the name Sarban, just as the Jews are called from Judah, the Lechites from Lech and other [nations]. There are Slavic people with the name of Kashuba, and so they were named because of the width and length of the clothes, which they had to gather into folds due to their width and length. After all, in Slavic, the wrinkle or fold on clothes is called “huba” (huba), hence “Kashuby” (Casshubii), that is, “fold folds”. Most of them live around the North Sea. There are also other Slavs, who are called Drevnjane, and the Teutons call them golzatami (Halczste). Their main fortresses are: Bukovec, now called Lübeck, also Gum, i.e. Hamburg and Bremen, which was their capital and residence. There are also the princely fortress of Schleswig and the city of Cheshnina. At their head are the Comits, who were appointed by the Emperor Henry, as they say, after he had subjugated these territories to the Slavs. This nation got its name because of the thick of forests and trees. After all, the Drevnany (Drewnanye), they are called from the "trees" (lignis). They are also called grass from some river called Travna.

Nor should we pass by the Hungarians, who are themselves Slavs. They are called Hungarians from a certain river by the name Vkra, which flows from a large lake, near which the city of Przemyslaw is now located, [and this river flows] towards the North Sea. After the Goths for the sake of robbing people came from islands called Skantsa and Gotalrik, and began to oppress and cause trouble in their own dwellings, the Hungarians, together with their wives and children, decided to return to the lands of the Pannonians where they came from, and settle there forever. But since God decided to punish them precisely for the sins of some peoples, they did not set off on a straight path, so as not to cause harm to their Slavic people on the way, but they went a dangerous way through Teutonia, Burgundy, and then through Lombardy to the lands of Slavonia, the ways of ravaging cities and shedding a lot of human blood. Their king, Tipo, who is called Attila in his writings, came to Pannonia and decided to establish a permanent residence there, and since many Slavic peoples converged to them [Hungarians], they then began to be called not Vkras, but vandals. That part of the Slavs, which was called Vkras from the Vkra River, later, mingling with the people of the Huns, who, as Martin most fully writes about this in his Roman Chronicle, came to Pannonia from the mountains of Sicily and subjugated it to their domination, was called the Hungarians ) from both the Huns (Hunis), and from vkranov.

Subsequently, Lech and his offspring, walking through the widest groves, where the Kingdom of Poland was, came to a place with very fertile soil, rich in fish and wild animals, set up his tent there, intending to build his first dwelling place, and said: " We will build a nest. " That is why this place (up to the present time is called “Gniezno”, that is, “nest building”.

Since I digress a little from the material I intended to write about, we now return to our original presentation. And so that the clear brevity of the writing made it possible to remember the events, I, with the help of Almighty God, studied and briefly transferred to the posterity the history of the kings, princes and leaders of the Polish kingdom, that is, the vast state of Lechites, as well as their descendants, as I learned from the annals the history of Poland, and everything that I saw in different [records] of various churches, as well as everything that I learned from the oral tales of noble elders of Poland, from whose attention neither military actions nor events of that time escaped.

Chapter 1. About Krak, the First King of the Lechites

So, first of all, let's see where the Lechit kings came from. At the time of King Assuer, while the Gauls attacked and occupied various kingdoms and provinces, the Lechites usually lived as brothers descended from one father, had neither a king nor a prince, but only chose from among their twelve most famous and wealthy people who had to sort out the issues in dispute between them and govern the state. They did not demand any tax from anyone, did not force to provide services, but, fearing the invasion of the Gauls, they unanimously, according to divine will, chose the leader of the army or, rather, the leader, among their Lehit brothers (the leader of the army is called ") A certain active husband named Krak, whose estate was at that time near the Vistula River. This Krak, which means “raven” in Latin, was proclaimed the winner by the Lechites as the winner. He built a fortress, called [then] by his name "Krakow", which previously had the name "Wawel". "Wawel" is like some kind of swelling, which, as they say, people usually live in the mountains, and it forms in their throat due to drinking water.

Similarly, the mountain, where the Kraków fortress is now located, was called “Wawel”, and nearby, on the other side of the Vistula, there is a small mountain, which had the diminutive name “Vavelnitsa” on which the church of St. Michael on Skaltse (de Rupella) is built. This small mountain was built a large and powerful city, which, as they say, Alexander the Great razed to the ground. It is said that he [Krak] had two sons and one daughter. The youngest of them named Krak, in order to inherit his father in the kingdom, secretly, having resorted to cunning, killed his elder brother. He died alone, leaving no descendants, and only one of his sisters, named Wanda, which means “hook” in Latin, survived. They write that she was of such a beautiful and pretty appearance that everyone who looked at her was attracted to her with her pleasant appearance. Therefore, it was called "Wanda", that is, "hook". She, the wisest woman, neglecting the marriage bed, superbly ruled the Kingdom of Poland according to the will of the people, until the news of her beauty reached a certain king of the Alemans; since he could not persuade her to marry him neither with money nor with pleas, [then], wishing and hoping to achieve the fulfillment of his aspirations, he resorted to hostile threats and attacks with his army. Having gathered a large army, he approached the lands of the Lechyites and tried to enter them hostilely. The aforementioned Wanda, the queen of the Lehites, was not at all frightened, and with her came out to meet his powerful forces. The aforementioned king, seeing that she came up with her horrifying hordes, in disarray, either from love or indignation, exclaimed: "Let Vanda command the sea, even by earth, even by air, let him sacrifice to his immortal gods, and I All of you, O nobles, I will make a solemn sacrifice to the underground gods, so that both you and your offspring are continuously under the authority of a woman. ” And soon, throwing himself on a sword, killed himself. Wanda, having received an oath of allegiance and vassal dependence from the Alemans, returned home and brought sacrifices to the gods, corresponding to her great glory and outstanding success. Jumping into the Vistula River, paid homage to human nature and crossed the threshold of the underworld. From that time on, the Vistula River was named Vandal by the name of Queen Vanda, and from this name the Poles and other Slavic peoples adjoining their states became known not as lechits, but vandalites.

About Leshke the first

After the death of Queen Wanda for many years, up to the time of King Alexander, the Lechites were deprived of the King, but only the governor and twelve rulers were elected. In his time, as they say, a master of gold-working art, who resisted the power of Alexander rather than skill and hard work, rather than courage, forced the last of the land of the Lechites to leave ingloriously and not without embarrassment. Because of this, the Lechites elected him king, giving him the name Leszek. After all, they say that Leszek means “cunning”, since he defeated the invincible King Alexander with cunning and dirty tricks. And then he died, leaving no offspring.
 
So, what do you defend?
My version of early slavic ethnogenesis is quite traditional.
  • Slavic birthplace is on north-west of modern Ukraine, somewhere in CK2 Chernigov. Desna and Dniepr. It was a continuum of baltic tribes, whose language was contaminated with iranic and germanic elements. They were numerous enough, and were vaguely spread from Baltic to Black Sea. Thanks to climat - so-called "roman optimum", they could exist and prosper without actual tech needed, therefore there is little archeological evidence.
Ha-ha:). They?
fc9c8fb1f394.png

Orbis_Herodoti.jpg


Herodotus:
Neuri

These people, apparently, sorcerers. The Scythians and the Greeks living among them, at least, claim that every neurus turns into a wolf for a few days every year, and then takes on a human form.

Chernigov is black, Melankhlen - black. Some black tradition among the Balts
 
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World Map 700 BC, created by Vladimir Bulat. As I said earlier, in the CK 2 Chinese proposal, these cards include the length of time from 700 BC to 1200 AD. But they are in Russian, I will not translate them, because it is a gigantic work http://gumilevica.kulichki.net/chronosophy/AtlasEurasia.htm.
Neuri in Eastern Europe is indicated by paragraph 63 among the Balts, there are no Melanhleins, but Budins by paragraph 64 are also designated as Balts.
Kolomiytsev believes that Budins with Nordic appearance are Finns.
Dnepr-Dvinsk culture, paragraph 65 - these are Androphages. They are also marked by the color of the Balts.
Also, sorry, but Gumilev, who declared that ethnoses are became passionaric by cosmic rays, isn't the good historican. He is brilliant geograph though.
And also a wonderful orientalist. These cards are from there. From Gumilevki. If you translate Gumilev's books, then you are already half Orientalists, from the Turkic, and not from the Chinese point of view http://gumilevica.kulichki.net/works.html
atlasVIIBC.png
 
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