sounds like it was wise of me to ask to be disregardedI have no concrete info on this I never played Blot but game mechanics wise it feels like it will not be fratricide. Although, disregard this post when deciding
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Ukko clearly is a most troublesome vassal. He does remind me of Hakon in some way, with the difference that he's not trying to murder anyone (or does he? ) and that he's landed. But at least he's Tyuey's problem now.
The Monster's timing with the revocation war seems to be as bad as Eilif's luck with war declarations. (Though I can explain it: as the attacked, Saksa got an opinion bonus with his vassals, enough for his revocation plot to get the sufficient backing. Not that it's smart to fire it.)
The late commanders' children's marriage is a sweet act of Eilif. May they be blessed with many strong children and future commanders.
Has Rögnvaldr managed to claim Zeeland with his invasion? This would be good news for the Norse reformation, as Noregr just needs to subjugate one of the two other kingdoms (or be subjugated...) to control three holy sites. Then it's just a matter of moral authority and the king's piety.
) and that he's landed. But at least he's Tyuey's problem now.The Monster's timing with the revocation war seems to be as bad as Eilif's luck with war declarations. (Though I can explain it: as the attacked, Saksa got an opinion bonus with his vassals, enough for his revocation plot to get the sufficient backing. Not that it's smart to fire it.)
The late commanders' children's marriage is a sweet act of Eilif. May they be blessed with many strong children and future commanders.
Has Rögnvaldr managed to claim Zeeland with his invasion? This would be good news for the Norse reformation, as Noregr just needs to subjugate one of the two other kingdoms (or be subjugated...) to control three holy sites. Then it's just a matter of moral authority and the king's piety.
You'd get a special text about 'we are kin', but it still gives kinslayer after all.
I can only echo the wiki-based answers. Traits and opinion. Ingjerðr may have gained another trait to change her opinion.
That's right. Any tribal troops remain as long as you are at war, which is why - if you want to make the most out of them - at the end of each war fought, you'd pause, disband any levies, and declare another war with your tribal armies still raised. Also why that mechanic was changed.
Quick testing (Botulf Frille, November 1066 - with some extra console gold) reveals that as soon as you've declared that you will launch a blòt, you can declare war and keep the blòt. I don't think that mechanic has changed in the last patch.
The Eighth Þing of Eilif’s Reign – September 897 (a summary of advice from Chapter 70)
The Eighth Þing of Eilif’s Reign – September 897 (a summary of advice from Chapter 70)
Ch70 Q1: Blots and Kinslaying. So, Dyre is a prisoner. If he doesn’t die in the oubliette beforehand, I assume that means I could let him die ‘honourably’ in a Great Blot, should I hold one come November (mwahaha)? And would that count as kin-slaying? Or would his death be sanctified by his sacrifice to the Gods?
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Ch70 Q2: Council Viewpoints. More out of interest, but is there much method to how the perspectives of Councillors change and whether there’s much one can do to influence that? I’m talking here about whether they are glory hounds, loyalists, pragmatists etc. And noting that, since the last time we looked a few months back, the Queen Mother went from being a loyalist to a glory hound, for example.
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Ch70 Q3: A matter of timing? I suppose if I had immediately declared war on Onni after he had concluded his peace with Eirikr but before he had disbanded his army, the Council would have approved it. But them he would have presumably kept his 2,300-strong army, sitting in Kexholm. More just musing out loud: I wasn’t going to do that anyway. It was more just the waste of time positioning for the conquest without having rechecked to Council after he demobilised. You learn something new every time.
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Ch70 Q4: Blot and War. Just a simple question. Can you declare war after the Blot preparations have been commenced, or must you wait for it to finish completely. And having only done one and that very early on) roughly how long do they take to run through from announcement to finish?
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General Comments
Old Hrörekr, now just the Lawspeaker, lives on though, after that miraculous reprieve many years ago now when I had to reboot from an earlier save game! Shows how random mortality can be if there was no underlying health problem. Sliding doors …
Once more, I thank you all for your help. Now, off to see what Eilif can do to burnish his reputation …
PS: A moment's acknowledgement for the Notre Dame - very sad, hope as much as possible can be salvaged and the rest restored, in time.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Ch70 Q1: Blots and Kinslaying. So, Dyre is a prisoner. If he doesn’t die in the oubliette beforehand, I assume that means I could let him die ‘honourably’ in a Great Blot, should I hold one come November (mwahaha)? And would that count as kin-slaying? Or would his death be sanctified by his sacrifice to the Gods?
It would be, but looks like there are strings attached. I’d rather it was a rope attached to his neck, but Eilif’s gratification will have to be delayed.
I’d hoped the same, but alas it appears it would be.I have no concrete info on this I never played Blot but game mechanics wise it feels like it will not be fratricide. Although, disregard this post when deciding
Acknowledged, thanks – and for checking on it.
That clinches it.
Another confirmation. Eilif will just have to hope the oubliette does the trick sooner rather than later.
That’s what the hive mind is for.sounds like it was wise of me to ask to be disregarded
Interesting. Part of me is still tempted, for all that inheritance and not having to go through a murder plot, but I could really do without the penalties.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Ch70 Q2: Council Viewpoints. More out of interest, but is there much method to how the perspectives of Councillors change and whether there’s much one can do to influence that? I’m talking here about whether they are glory hounds, loyalists, pragmatists etc. And noting that, since the last time we looked a few months back, the Queen Mother went from being a loyalist to a glory hound, for example.
It may come to that, but I’d need to change at least two to make much of a difference.I haven't found a way to change that (it may exist), but I was changing the council members
Ah, Wiki the Red! Always useful to consult his tomes of wisdom.
Good call: I checked and there was a -50 ‘imprisoned my child’ penalty. With all the positives, she still has a good (+62) opinion of Eilif, but yes, that must have been enough to tip her from loyalist. Fair enough too.As previously noted, you can almost always buy a Favor from a councilor, then call it in to have them support your vote, or else offer them a Favor from you in exchange for their support (though this can sometimes result in them calling it in for something that goes against your best interests...), which always overrides other preferences. As @diskoerekto notes, though, it is often easier to change a councilor entirely than it is to change their vote
As for the Queen Mother's shift in stance: Judging by the information on the page, I suspect that she's upset at Eilif for imprisoning Dyre -- even if they're rivals, they're still both her children, after all. I'd check her opinion modifiers for something along the lines of "Imprisoned my Son" or "Imprisoned X" and see how it factors into the overall opinion calculation.
Noted. This jibes with @Specialist290 as The Queen Mother would have been at 100 and is now only 62.
I don’t think her traits have changed recently, but haven’t been checking (far away as she has been for decades, in Constantinople). I think it will have been the opinion change, per above.
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Ch70 Q3: A matter of timing? I suppose if I had immediately declared war on Onni after he had concluded his peace with Eirikr but before he had disbanded his army, the Council would have approved it. But them he would have presumably kept his 2,300-strong army, sitting in Kexholm. More just musing out loud: I wasn’t going to do that anyway. It was more just the waste of time positioning for the conquest without having rechecked to Council after he demobilised. You learn something new every time.
Well, it looks like Mari is now the main option – silly glory hunters!
Noted, very useful thanks.
Too true. It’s almost some kind of tribal Munchausen’s-by-proxy they’re inflicting on Eilif!
Makes sense – I’ve read a bit in @coz1 ‘s latest AAR about that. Less out-of-thin-air host procurement actually sounds more balanced and realistic.
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Ch70 Q4: Blot and War. Just a simple question. Can you declare war after the Blot preparations have been commenced, or must you wait for it to finish completely. And having only done one and that very early on) roughly how long do they take to run through from announcement to finish?
Hmm, I might wait to be careful, unless there’s a need for urgency in a DoW.
Yes, maybe, though then I’d probably have to wait another year to do the blot.
Maybe I’ll test it too – I’ll see. Choices, choices …
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General Comments
I think he won't stop until he declares the kingdom of Ruthenia as he is a nationalist rebel leader (he is a Khazar and I'm not sure if Khazar is the de jure culture of the kingdom of Ruthenia but still he's a liberator and he's operating in Ruthenia so that must be it) and in fact that's one reason he might be useful to us as a vassal. We already have a bunch of Ruthenian provinces and Barsbek is trying to conquer a lot of them to be able to create the title. If he is our vassal, when he's 6-7 provinces away from creating the title we'd already be able to do so
oh this is surprising for me too, I thought Barsbek was going for Ruthenia but is he in fact going for Khazaria? This makes sense and answers my question about him being a Khazar trying to have a kingdom in Ruthenia. I think my earlier plan can be regarded as crap. Still he can be an interesting character in our court
He was indeed ambitious, but further east! I’m glad of that – let them thrash each other to death and bleed away the hordes.Just as I realized albeit only minutes ago
Yes, easier to arrest the errant brother than it might have been. That was my first in-game arrest ever!this has been smooth
Could happen after Tyuey dies, I suppose! But he may not be too bad as a Jarl – especially with far fewer lands than Tyuey has now.How pissed Eilif would be if Ukko somehow wrestled the Jarldom from Tyuey and became a bigger pain in the ass
Makes sense: Eirikr has had a few prisoners lately to practice his depraved urges on!
Alas, with no ships (yet, anyway) beyond Eilif’s capabilities.That's where I live! I would've preferred Eilif than this Rognvaldr, or the Willem Alexander we have now
Helpful info! I knew a bit of that from before, but had forgotten most of it. I’m hoping that Sölvi, like his father, can pick up a trait or two from fighting.
I hope something good comes of the match! Sölvi is one of the first of the new generation of leaders that arose from Rurik’s early efforts in this area.
I hear you! I was pretty reluctant to grant it, but it was part of my pathway out of unreformed tribalism and I wanted to experiment with/learn from it a bit. But … snarl! The jumped-up toadies!
Precisely! I hope Dyre rots quickly, if I can’t Blot him out of the picture!Just what he deserves for plotting against his brother and rightful King
Yes, the old guard are mostly gone now.
Old Hrörekr, now just the Lawspeaker, lives on though, after that miraculous reprieve many years ago now when I had to reboot from an earlier save game! Shows how random mortality can be if there was no underlying health problem. Sliding doors …Yes, I thought the same re Hakon (who has been suspiciously quiet of late – I don’t trust him not to emerge with something nefarious). Yes, Tyuey can look after him – and seems to be doing a pretty determined job of bringing him around. I’ll be curious to see if it works. Ukko was only worth so much effort from me at the kingdom level. I was hardly going to elevate him to Council, for instance. Or make him Regent!Ukko clearly is a most troublesome vassal. He does remind me of Hakon in some way, with the difference that he's not trying to murder anyone (or does he?
Yes, an interesting mix of mechanics there. You would have thought declaring on a vassal who had joined you as an ally might have been a bit too much or a reach, but Saksa has clearly earned the nickname of ‘the Monster’ appropriately.
It was one of those nice little things. Fingers crossed for some talented offspring. Who don’t end up hating their king!
Zeeland was taken by Sweden a while back. At least it’s in Germanic hands, even if with a different king.
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Once more, I thank you all for your help. Now, off to see what Eilif can do to burnish his reputation …
PS: A moment's acknowledgement for the Notre Dame - very sad, hope as much as possible can be salvaged and the rest restored, in time.
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At least the majority of the art and relics were already gone for the renovation.
It seems like nothing is going to be irreplaceable
It seems like nothing is going to be irreplaceable
Chapter 71: Good News, Bad News (27 September 897 – 14 January 898)
Chapter 71: Good News, Bad News (27 September 897 – 14 January 898)
Previously, on Blut und Schlacht … With his evil brother Dyre safely in prison, Eilif looks for a war of conquest ambitious enough to satisfy the glory-seekers in his council; Tyueykezhut has won his war for Kolomna ... but his eye remains restless; Saksa the Monster fights Barsbek the Liberator in a knock-down, drag out battle between two notorious and victorious warlords – who will win?
September-October 897
After the Þing of September 897, King Eilif wrote to his mother in Constantinople, asking why she no longer offered the same support in Council that she once had. The response laid out her thoughts.
On 1 October, the spy network reported that Chief Ukko of Vologda had ceased plotting against his new liege Jarl Tyuey. It seemed like the charm offensive had succeeded!
Mid-October brought news that Saksa continued to live up to his monstrous epithet. He had burned another Christian doctor (a French Catholic this time) at the stake.
Also living up to character, the ever-active Jarl Tyuey dropped another surprise on his king on 22 October.
He was nothing if not bold. While his immediate levy looked under-powered for the task, he could call on vassals to assist and had the prestige to summon another tribal army of 2,500 men if he wished. This would bring the whole of Chernigov into the realm if it succeeded – but Tyuey would be enormously powerful. Though he would have a rather dynamic and perhaps unhappy vassal. If he won, would Tyuey again think of independence? All this gave Eilif pause for thought. But he continued in his plan to attack Saksa – perhaps that would also even things up again, too.
A few days later, Tyuey’s initial muster was underway.
November-December 897
Old King Rögnvaldr of Norway was determined to continue his victorious ways with a conquest of Caithness in the north of Scotland.
While King Eirikr of Sweden looked to Breda for another playground in which to practice his depravity.
Eilif fumed that it seemed to be easy enough for his Norse colleagues to have their wars of expansion, whereas he was seemingly thwarted by his glory-hungry council at every turn.
In late November, Jarl Tyuey ordered his latest tribal army mustered. He never did these things half-heartedly! [At least it would use up his last big stockpile of prestige].
And just to rub some salt into the wounds to his pride, the ‘other’ (Young) King Rögnvaldr of Denmark won his claim on the rich Frankish county of Nantes on 12 December.
This made Eilif consider holding a Blot after all, to help cheer himself up. But on checking the prison, he found the other rebel leader had quietly died in the meantime, meaning only his brother Dyre and the long-term prisoner the simpleton Feverdyn remained. Perhaps he could get some more Blot-worthy prisoners in the war with Mari.
So the declaration was made. Obran Osh would be brought into the realm: the Council offered unanimous support.
The levies were summoned and sent to the border, while Eilif decided to call all his available vassals to war, though with Tyuey already involved in his war with Barsbek, he was not expected to comply. And Ingrian chiefs never did. But he was curious to see who would turn up. Clearly not Dyre!
Four days later, no vassals from either Garðariki or Mari had responded to any calls – the messages were still making their way out to the respective counties. But Karelia had not joined in the war – their alliance with Mari seemed to have dissolved at some point.
Four responses from Eilif’s vassals were received between 23 and 25 December, diligently filed away by Gumarich der Schreiber for future posterity – and our reading pleasure. Only one of the responders so far had failed to join: Hrolfr and Buðli offered their support – as did Tihomir of Luki (a pleasant surprise). Only Vihavald of Ingria, as expected, rejected the call.
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January 898
The first day of 898AD brought good and bad news. The reliable Grimr of Smaleskja once again answered his king's call, while the preoccupied Jarl Tyueykezhut declined. All up, vassal allies would basically double the size of the Garðarikian army for the coming campaign. They were all called to join the Huscarls on the border with Mari. Hrolfr’s men were closest: with his main contingent, they would have enough to begin advancing into Obran Osh to commence the siege.
The next day, Tyuey was back.
Next Steps
The levies were duly dismissed. But only Queen Ingrid saw a renewed war for Obran Osh as justified. The rest agreed with Tyuey. The conquest of Obran Osh was off! Curses, Eilif thought to himself and confided in his private journal. Foiled again! [OK, now I am starting to consider which Councillors I can afford to replace with die-hard, powerless loyalists. Problem is I have three political appointees to keep happy, for a start.]
And they were still of the same opinion (5-2 against) regarding Könugarðr, where Eilif was keen to conquer the border county of Mstislavl. And becoming labelled a tyrant (or a kinslayer, for that matter) would badly endanger his ability to summon some of his vassal allies to wars.
Eilif then cast his eye south. What else might he look to conquer that was part of the de jure Empire of Russia, was available, and which the Council would agree was a glorious enough pursuit to back?
Chernigov was one option. The option to subjugate it was gone, but a claim by one of Tihomir’s courtiers in Luki could be pushed on Sharukan (though that wasn’t very attractive). On the border, the ‘Russian’ counties of Chernigov or Novgorod Seversky could be conquered. Though that would have to be done before Tyuey won his subjugation war and took the whole lot.
The other ‘glory hounds’ around the table nod at this. Even without Grimr’s enthusiasm for Curonia as a war target, there was enough in it for them to back the proposal, even though Curonia was still seen as a weaker opponent. And Ingrid approved because they were weaker.
As the meeting broke up, Eilif took Jarl Tyuey aside and asked him how Ukko was performing since being transferred and causing such trouble initially.
Tyuey the Man-Manager Par Excellence. He should publish a self-help tome for would-be rulers on how to bring around troublesome vassals!
Questions
Apart from any general strategic advice on where to go next or possibilities not considered above, here are the specific questions for the latest Þing.
Ch71 Q1: Imprisonment Malus. Having checked after hints from the Þing, it became clear that a ten-year -50 ‘imprisoned my son’ penalty had affected the relationship between Eilif and his mother and Spymaster, Ingjerðr. She remained strongly positive, but not at the 95+ level that should have made her a loyalist on the Council. My question is if Dyre dies in prison, would the penalty then disappear, or would it go for the rest of the ten years or be changed into some follow-on ‘let him die in prison’ penalty?
Ch71 Q2: Cross-claims. My assumption here is that because Tyuey is Eilif’s vassal and is already prosecuting a subjugation war, Eilif cannot compete in that regard. But because they are two different types of claim, Eilif could try for a quick grab of one of the border counties. Though if Tyuey wins first, that war would lapse as well?
Ch71 Q3: Vassals and Holy Warriors. How likely is it that Sarunas would do this? It could make this a tricky fight if he does. If it is assumed he would summon them, if we occupy his county first with a blocking and besieging force, would that prevent him from summoning not only his own small levy, but potential holy warriors as well? Or could they appear somewhere else in Curonia?
Ch71 Q4: Tribal Christians and Holy Warriors. My strong assumption is that as a Christian, Kerpycius would not be able to summon holy warriors (2,000 per 200 piety) even if he wanted to. Anything I need to be wary of about him?
In the latest haul of documents from the Rurikid scroll trove was a contemporary painting on wood of Eilif considering the weighty decisions of the day. Gumarich noted that it was painted in the aftermath of Saksa’s death and the contemplation of next steps for Gardariki’s’ s manifest destiny.
Previously, on Blut und Schlacht … With his evil brother Dyre safely in prison, Eilif looks for a war of conquest ambitious enough to satisfy the glory-seekers in his council; Tyueykezhut has won his war for Kolomna ... but his eye remains restless; Saksa the Monster fights Barsbek the Liberator in a knock-down, drag out battle between two notorious and victorious warlords – who will win?
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
September-October 897
After the Þing of September 897, King Eilif wrote to his mother in Constantinople, asking why she no longer offered the same support in Council that she once had. The response laid out her thoughts.
“My Son and King, your continuing imprisonment of your brother Dyre, no matter the legal justification, brings pain to my heart. I still support you, but until this shadow between us is lifted, my enthusiasm must be reserved.”
Eilif in turn wrote back: “But Mother, as my Spymaster, you surely know that he deserved it! He would not renounce his plot to murder me and challenged me to duels twice. I had to act – for my honour and the safety of the realm.”
“Yes, that is so,” came the reply by fast courier. “But now it is done, you should give him a second chance. And the oubliette? That is just too cruel. Release him and you will once again have my undivided support, my son.”
Eilif’s reply was emphatic. “That I cannot do, mother. I was sorely tempted to offer him to the Blot this winter but have mercifully stayed my hand. He remains a serious threat to me and my young family and will stay in prison. That is my final word on the matter.”
Eilif in turn wrote back: “But Mother, as my Spymaster, you surely know that he deserved it! He would not renounce his plot to murder me and challenged me to duels twice. I had to act – for my honour and the safety of the realm.”
“Yes, that is so,” came the reply by fast courier. “But now it is done, you should give him a second chance. And the oubliette? That is just too cruel. Release him and you will once again have my undivided support, my son.”
Eilif’s reply was emphatic. “That I cannot do, mother. I was sorely tempted to offer him to the Blot this winter but have mercifully stayed my hand. He remains a serious threat to me and my young family and will stay in prison. That is my final word on the matter.”
Ch71 Q1: Imprisonment Malus. Having checked after hints from the Þing, it became clear that a ten-year -50 ‘imprisoned my son’ penalty had affected the relationship between Eilif and his mother and Spymaster, Ingjerðr. She remained strongly positive, but not at the 95+ level that should have made her a loyalist on the Council. My question is if Dyre dies in prison, would the penalty then disappear, or would it go for the rest of the ten years or be changed into some follow-on ‘let him die in prison’ penalty?
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
On 1 October, the spy network reported that Chief Ukko of Vologda had ceased plotting against his new liege Jarl Tyuey. It seemed like the charm offensive had succeeded!
Mid-October brought news that Saksa continued to live up to his monstrous epithet. He had burned another Christian doctor (a French Catholic this time) at the stake.
Given the King’s tentative plans to attack Saksa and Barsbek’s preoccupation with that tough war … he nonchalantly announced: “Oh, by the way King Eilif, I have launched a war to subjugate High Chief Barsbek of Chernigov. I trust you will wish me luck.”
A few days later, Tyuey’s initial muster was underway.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
November-December 897
Old King Rögnvaldr of Norway was determined to continue his victorious ways with a conquest of Caithness in the north of Scotland.
“At least this war on Saksa will present an opportunity, anyway,” he mused aloud to Gumarich as he mulled over the reports.
In late November, Jarl Tyuey ordered his latest tribal army mustered. He never did these things half-heartedly! [At least it would use up his last big stockpile of prestige].
Music from the period of Eilif Rurikid's reign was discovered and recorded by the group Moving Pictures in 1982. Enjoy!
This made Eilif consider holding a Blot after all, to help cheer himself up. But on checking the prison, he found the other rebel leader had quietly died in the meantime, meaning only his brother Dyre and the long-term prisoner the simpleton Feverdyn remained. Perhaps he could get some more Blot-worthy prisoners in the war with Mari.
Four responses from Eilif’s vassals were received between 23 and 25 December, diligently filed away by Gumarich der Schreiber for future posterity – and our reading pleasure. Only one of the responders so far had failed to join: Hrolfr and Buðli offered their support – as did Tihomir of Luki (a pleasant surprise). Only Vihavald of Ingria, as expected, rejected the call.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
January 898
The first day of 898AD brought good and bad news. The reliable Grimr of Smaleskja once again answered his king's call, while the preoccupied Jarl Tyueykezhut declined. All up, vassal allies would basically double the size of the Garðarikian army for the coming campaign. They were all called to join the Huscarls on the border with Mari. Hrolfr’s men were closest: with his main contingent, they would have enough to begin advancing into Obran Osh to commence the siege.
“King Eilif,” called an unusually animated Jarl Tyuey on 13 January. “I bring good news – Saksa the Monster has died! His brother High Chief Kinyak has inherited the title.”
“Ah, that is good news, Tyuey. It should make my job easier, we’re almost ready to march into Obran Osh now.”
“Ah, that is good news, Tyuey. It should make my job easier, we’re almost ready to march into Obran Osh now.”
“Ah, My King, you know how I had good news yesterday about Saksa? More good news – his realm has been broken up, with his brother Kinyak getting the main title and the rest of the realm being handed out to his two young sons, who have split off from Marian suzerainty.”
“Even better, Tyuey.”
“Yes, Sire. But there is just one little catch.”
“Oh? And that is?”
“Kinyak did not inherit Obran Osh. That has been included as a western march of the new realm of Murom, which went to one of the sons.”
“So?”
“It means the declaration of war is no longer valid as it is not now part of Mari. The war has therefore ended indecisively. The same thing happened to Barsbek, as Khopyor went to the other son, with the realm of Mordva being re-established.”
“Even better, Tyuey.”
“Yes, Sire. But there is just one little catch.”
“Oh? And that is?”
“Kinyak did not inherit Obran Osh. That has been included as a western march of the new realm of Murom, which went to one of the sons.”
“So?”
“It means the declaration of war is no longer valid as it is not now part of Mari. The war has therefore ended indecisively. The same thing happened to Barsbek, as Khopyor went to the other son, with the realm of Mordva being re-established.”
“Well, that’s inconvenient for all three of us then. I need to disband the levies and declare again to conquer Obran Osh; Barsbek has wasted his occupation of Khopyor; and your opponent is no longer distracted to the east, Tyuey.”
“True, My King, though I am still confident I have Barsbek’s measure.”
“Muster the Council, Tyuey. I will declare on this youngster to take Obran Osh for Garðariki.”
“As you wish, King Eilif, but I hardly think it is now a fair fight. Young ruler, splintered realm. Where’s the glory in that?”
“I don’t care about the glory, Tyuey! I just want a short war and some new territory!”
“True, My King, though I am still confident I have Barsbek’s measure.”
“Muster the Council, Tyuey. I will declare on this youngster to take Obran Osh for Garðariki.”
“As you wish, King Eilif, but I hardly think it is now a fair fight. Young ruler, splintered realm. Where’s the glory in that?”
“I don’t care about the glory, Tyuey! I just want a short war and some new territory!”
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Next Steps
The levies were duly dismissed. But only Queen Ingrid saw a renewed war for Obran Osh as justified. The rest agreed with Tyuey. The conquest of Obran Osh was off! Curses, Eilif thought to himself and confided in his private journal. Foiled again! [OK, now I am starting to consider which Councillors I can afford to replace with die-hard, powerless loyalists. Problem is I have three political appointees to keep happy, for a start.]
And they were still of the same opinion (5-2 against) regarding Könugarðr, where Eilif was keen to conquer the border county of Mstislavl. And becoming labelled a tyrant (or a kinslayer, for that matter) would badly endanger his ability to summon some of his vassal allies to wars.
Eilif then cast his eye south. What else might he look to conquer that was part of the de jure Empire of Russia, was available, and which the Council would agree was a glorious enough pursuit to back?
Ch71 Q2: Cross-claims. My assumption here is that because Tyuey is Eilif’s vassal and is already prosecuting a subjugation war, Eilif cannot compete in that regard. But because they are two different types of claim, Eilif could try for a quick grab of one of the border counties. Though if Tyuey wins first, that war would lapse as well?
“Tyuey, I would very much like to take Kiev (the old capital of Könugarðr) away from those infidel Hungarians. It is a potential capital of the Empire of Russia our house would one day wish to form. Can I make a valid claim for it?”
“The good news is that the previous King Árpád the Victorious died last October. The Hungarian realm is still formidable and would make a worthy and glorious opponent, but the succession has weakened the new King Árpád Linütika’s personal power.”
“The good news is that the previous King Árpád the Victorious died last October. The Hungarian realm is still formidable and would make a worthy and glorious opponent, but the succession has weakened the new King Árpád Linütika’s personal power.”
“Yes? And?”
“Ah, the bad news is you have no legitimate claim. Kiev does not share a border with Garðariki, unfortunately. Though it will once I win my subjugation claim on Barsbek.” Tyuey is, as always, very confident. Even if it never seems to make him happy.
“Right.”
“Though, King Eilif, by a quirk of law, you can make a conquest casus belli on any coastal province. The Hungarians have five of them on the Black Sea. You would have to march over land to get there, but it would be a glorious challenge.”
“Though not very wise, husband,” chimed in Queen Ingrid, ever the pragmatist. “And they’re not even part of the de jure Russian Empire.”
“Ah, the bad news is you have no legitimate claim. Kiev does not share a border with Garðariki, unfortunately. Though it will once I win my subjugation claim on Barsbek.” Tyuey is, as always, very confident. Even if it never seems to make him happy.
“Right.”
“Though, King Eilif, by a quirk of law, you can make a conquest casus belli on any coastal province. The Hungarians have five of them on the Black Sea. You would have to march over land to get there, but it would be a glorious challenge.”
“Though not very wise, husband,” chimed in Queen Ingrid, ever the pragmatist. “And they’re not even part of the de jure Russian Empire.”
“My King, I appreciate your position here,” ventured Grimr. “My lands border on Orsha, once part of Könugarðr but now owned by the Curonians. I would pick it as my first target in any war. And it is considered part of the de jure Russian Empire we seek to proclaim one day.”
“He has a few vassals who may assist him and a reasonable levy, but would not be able to call a band of holy warriors or a tribal army,” mused Marshal Hrolfr. “The other Romuvans would not like it, but they are hardly a major force in the region. And his realm is dispersed.”
The other ‘glory hounds’ around the table nod at this. Even without Grimr’s enthusiasm for Curonia as a war target, there was enough in it for them to back the proposal, even though Curonia was still seen as a weaker opponent. And Ingrid approved because they were weaker.
“I would therefore have the Council’s support for the conquest of Orsha?” All nodded, including the Queen Mother’s representative. “Then Hrolfr, what would we be facing if we did attack? What of High Chief Yudki’s vassals?”
“Lepiel is the neighbouring county. Chief Sarunas would likely support his liege but has fewer than 200 men in his levy. The main danger with him, however, is his piety. He could summon holy warriors in his master’s cause.”
“Please seek the views of the Þing on the likelihood of that, Hrolfr. It is crucial to our possible invasion. Even with the support of my own loyal vassals, it could make the fight a difficult one.”
“Please seek the views of the Þing on the likelihood of that, Hrolfr. It is crucial to our possible invasion. Even with the support of my own loyal vassals, it could make the fight a difficult one.”
Ch71 Q3: Vassals and Holy Warriors. How likely is it that Sarunas would do this? It could make this a tricky fight if he does. If it is assumed he would summon them, if we occupy his county first with a blocking and besieging force, would that prevent him from summoning not only his own small levy, but potential holy warriors as well? Or could they appear somewhere else in Curonia?
“Of course, My King. Moving on to Chief Kerpycius of Podlaise, he has a levy of over 400, but is an Orthodox Christian who by all reports dislikes his liege and may ignore a call to arms. He is a very pious man, but as a Christian I’m not sure he could summon holy warriors as a pagan could.”
Ch71 Q4: Tribal Christians and Holy Warriors. My strong assumption is that as a Christian, Kerpycius would not be able to summon holy warriors (2,000 per 200 piety) even if he wanted to. Anything I need to be wary of about him?
“Again, that sounds right to me Hrolfr, but check with the scholars and experts, just in case. It isn’t a situation we’ve encountered before.”
“As you command, King Eilif. Finally, there is the young Chieftess Saule of Grodno. She also has a levy of over 400. She generally supports the High Chief, so we would have to bank on her coming to his aid. All in all, excepting the possibility of holy warriors, even if all of Yudki’s vassals responded, you should be able to handle them yourself. If the same number of troops from the vassals responds as they did for the discontinued war on Mari, you should still be able to handle the Curonians even if they do bring one army of holy warriors. Though it would be a closer fight and it would take quite a while for all the Garðarikian forces to be mustered and then assembled into a single large army on the border with Orsha. Then again, some of the larger regiments – Grimr’s forces and your own levies – would be reasonably close.”
“Thank you Hrolfr and to my loyal Councillors. I will consider any more advice from the forthcoming Þing and decide our next move tonight.”
“As you command, King Eilif. Finally, there is the young Chieftess Saule of Grodno. She also has a levy of over 400. She generally supports the High Chief, so we would have to bank on her coming to his aid. All in all, excepting the possibility of holy warriors, even if all of Yudki’s vassals responded, you should be able to handle them yourself. If the same number of troops from the vassals responds as they did for the discontinued war on Mari, you should still be able to handle the Curonians even if they do bring one army of holy warriors. Though it would be a closer fight and it would take quite a while for all the Garðarikian forces to be mustered and then assembled into a single large army on the border with Orsha. Then again, some of the larger regiments – Grimr’s forces and your own levies – would be reasonably close.”
“Thank you Hrolfr and to my loyal Councillors. I will consider any more advice from the forthcoming Þing and decide our next move tonight.”
As the meeting broke up, Eilif took Jarl Tyuey aside and asked him how Ukko was performing since being transferred and causing such trouble initially.
“Actually, he’s largely come around, King Eilif. Not only has he ceased plotting his independence, but he now professes to be a grudging supporter. I’m quite pleased – it has taken quite a bit of effort.”
Tyuey the Man-Manager Par Excellence. He should publish a self-help tome for would-be rulers on how to bring around troublesome vassals!
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Questions
Apart from any general strategic advice on where to go next or possibilities not considered above, here are the specific questions for the latest Þing.
Ch71 Q1: Imprisonment Malus. Having checked after hints from the Þing, it became clear that a ten-year -50 ‘imprisoned my son’ penalty had affected the relationship between Eilif and his mother and Spymaster, Ingjerðr. She remained strongly positive, but not at the 95+ level that should have made her a loyalist on the Council. My question is if Dyre dies in prison, would the penalty then disappear, or would it go for the rest of the ten years or be changed into some follow-on ‘let him die in prison’ penalty?
Ch71 Q2: Cross-claims. My assumption here is that because Tyuey is Eilif’s vassal and is already prosecuting a subjugation war, Eilif cannot compete in that regard. But because they are two different types of claim, Eilif could try for a quick grab of one of the border counties. Though if Tyuey wins first, that war would lapse as well?
Ch71 Q3: Vassals and Holy Warriors. How likely is it that Sarunas would do this? It could make this a tricky fight if he does. If it is assumed he would summon them, if we occupy his county first with a blocking and besieging force, would that prevent him from summoning not only his own small levy, but potential holy warriors as well? Or could they appear somewhere else in Curonia?
Ch71 Q4: Tribal Christians and Holy Warriors. My strong assumption is that as a Christian, Kerpycius would not be able to summon holy warriors (2,000 per 200 piety) even if he wanted to. Anything I need to be wary of about him?
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In the latest haul of documents from the Rurikid scroll trove was a contemporary painting on wood of Eilif considering the weighty decisions of the day. Gumarich noted that it was painted in the aftermath of Saksa’s death and the contemplation of next steps for Gardariki’s’ s manifest destiny.
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I think the opinion will remain even if he were to die in the obulette, but there will be no additional negative opinion for his death though. Christian rulers cant raise holy armies until the holy orders(templars, knights hospitaler) form and you should get a popup when they do. If youre not sure just look them up in the title searcher.
I'm not really sure about this (although couldn't find an opinion modifier when I asked Wiki the Red about letting somebody die in prison), but does the circumstances allow for a tyranny-free banishment? If so that can be a good way to solve this problem once and for all. In any case, even if there's not a dying related opinion penalty, the imprison penalty will likely stay (but again, I'm not sure)
This is the exact comment I was about to write about the declaration of war. Bold, and also ambitious.
why can't Eilif have one decent war, why???
Of f...ing course this would happen
I was about to suggest to subjugate Könugarðr. They don't agree even if it's not one province but a subjugation war?
I wouldn't be surprised either way, have absolutely no idea.
And he's a Christian unlike his Tengri father. May his apostate ways end like Könugarðr.
Ah, I wanted us to war with the Romuvans for quite some time now. One has to war with every different religious group in turn so that coalitions don't form as easily. After this one, we can directly move on to Minsk as well (if the glory hounds let us)
I'm not sure about this but I think this shouldn't affect the decision making, it will be an easy victory or a difficult victory and seemingly the only war we can have at the moment so we should go for it regardless. Directly besieging the province is an interesting idea but again I have no idea if it would work or not.
He's more likely to decline call to arms in my opinion.
A lot of frustration for Eilif in this chapter. But at least the threat of Saksa is gone for good, and one has to wonder if Mari will reunite.
Tyuey on the other hand looks like he's not frustrated for a while now, even in dealing with Ukko. Barsbek is a strong target, but he's got a good chance here.
.)
On that note, tribal armies/holy warriors don't need any unoccupied land to spawn.
Even if he could hire a holy order (they haven't formed yet, and the Orthodox only get one if they control Jerusalem), he wouldn't, as he's a vassal.
Yudki seems a solid target. If not him, then Eilif may strike at whoever has boats, if the council lets him.
Tyuey on the other hand looks like he's not frustrated for a while now, even in dealing with Ukko. Barsbek is a strong target, but he's got a good chance here.
There's definitely no additional penalty. I honestly never paid attention to that penalty of the mother, but I would suspect that it goes away once Dyre is out of prison (in whatever way that would happen
.)You could. Actually, whatever Tyuey would occupy would also add warscore for you, so you may get to 100% faster than him - if he doesn't get any warscore from a battle, which doesn't seem likely. Though as soon as Tyuey wins, of course the war is invalidated, or you'd be fighting your own vassal.
He won't. Only main attackers/defenders in a war raise tribal armies.
On that note, tribal armies/holy warriors don't need any unoccupied land to spawn.
Only defensive pagans (Romuvans, Slavs, Finns, Africans) can summon them, so you'd be safe. He won't spring any nasty surprises.
Even if he could hire a holy order (they haven't formed yet, and the Orthodox only get one if they control Jerusalem), he wouldn't, as he's a vassal.
Yudki seems a solid target. If not him, then Eilif may strike at whoever has boats, if the council lets him
.
I am basically going to second what @alscon says, as his thoughts align with my own.
It does appear that the Norns have been making sport of Eilif lately. Hopefully the threads of his destiny will weave their way to a more glorious course soon...
It does appear that the Norns have been making sport of Eilif lately. Hopefully the threads of his destiny will weave their way to a more glorious course soon...
by the way, I say, just before declaring war also check if you can go for a konugardhr subjugation. who knows maybe the councillors change their minds.
The Ninth Þing of Eilif’s Reign – January 898 (a summary of advice from Chapter 71)
The Ninth Þing of Eilif’s Reign – January 898 (a summary of advice from Chapter 71)
General Comments
Tyuey does seem to have mastered Ukko – for now, anyway. He’s a kind of ‘loyal but determined opposition’ character: not a Hakon, more one who will use legal means (albeit tricksy ones) to make his presence felt. We haven’t seen the last of him!
And Barsbek? As with the ‘title bout’ of Barsbek v Saksa (where Barsbek was ahead on points when Saksa’s death stopped the fight), he remains a formidable opponent. As does Tyuey (who may not be the sovereign liege of Garðariki, but is as - or more - powerful than most independent rulers in the region).
:
A bit Macbethian though for young Eilif’s tastes, I think. Too, well, Hel-ish! Best leave the future a mystery, perhaps: tempting the Fates never works well!
Next session played, will come out in two parts. Some quite interesting events and action, near and far. Look out for Hakon making his presence felt … and the Fates intervening with characters close to home and in more distant climes.
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Ch71 Q1: Imprisonment Malus. Having checked after hints from the Þing, it became clear that a ten-year -50 ‘imprisoned my son’ penalty had affected the relationship between Eilif and his mother and Spymaster, Ingjerðr. She remained strongly positive, but not at the 95+ level that should have made her a loyalist on the Council. My question is if Dyre dies in prison, would the penalty then disappear, or would it go for the rest of the ten years or be changed into some follow-on ‘let him die in prison’ penalty?
OK, it seems clear there should not be an additional penalty, will just have to see (if Eilif is fortunate enough to have Dyre die in jail any time soon) whether the priosn penalty does in fact go away, or linger – like a foul spirit! Which would be very appropriate for Dyre. Re banishment, possibly (I’d have to look to see if it’s an option – next session, have already played the next one through), what would happen to his titles? I want him to die so Eilif inherits them.There's definitely no additional penalty. I honestly never paid attention to that penalty of the mother, but I would suspect that it goes away once Dyre is out of prison (in whatever way that would happen
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Ch71 Q2: Cross-claims. My assumption here is that because Tyuey is Eilif’s vassal and is already prosecuting a subjugation war, Eilif cannot compete in that regard. But because they are two different types of claim, Eilif could try for a quick grab of one of the border counties. Though if Tyuey wins first, that war would lapse as well?
Hmm, all a bit iffy, really, though it remains a technical possibility I suppose. And if Tyuey doesn’t win the subjugation, does any resulting treaty that may arise bind me as liege as well? Meaning I’d have to wait before having my own go at him? I’m not at war with Barsbek – just Tyuey.
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Ch71 Q3: Vassals and Holy Warriors. How likely is it that Sarunas would do this? It could make this a tricky fight if he does. If it is assumed he would summon them, if we occupy his county first with a blocking and besieging force, would that prevent him from summoning not only his own small levy, but potential holy warriors as well? Or could they appear somewhere else in Curonia?
True enough re the decision.
So no need for the tricksy manoeuvre and it probably wouldn’t have worked if it was?
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Ch71 Q4: Tribal Christians and Holy Warriors. My strong assumption is that as a Christian, Kerpycius would not be able to summon holy warriors (2,000 per 200 piety) even if he wanted to. Anything I need to be wary of about him?
Good!
A good assumption, though there’s a bit of a twist on this subject that arises in the next chapter that I’ll be taking back to the Þing.
Thanks for the confirmation.
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General Comments
Tyuey is both of those – but so too is Barsbek. A good match, I think. As will be seen in the next episode!
Perhaps Curonia will be that war … <no spoiler>Of f...ing course this would happen
Makes no difference, I’d tested it out: it is for any war against the chosen country, no matter the CB (as far as my limited experience can tell, anyway. Others may know more.)
Indeed. Though they’re all infidels, or course! Maybe being an apostate from an infidel religion is worse: 1,000 word essay; discuss!
Maybe your wish will come true – unless the Council intervenes at the last minute to once again thwart Eilif’s ambitions to be a conqueror!
Yes – it should be a character trait/event: “x% chance character becomes Frustrated (-1 diplomacy) every time the Council unreasonably thwarts his/her warlike aims; may develop into Angry or Depression”. Or something like that.It really does feel as if Eilif is being frustrated at almost every turn
Yes, will be interesting to see what happens with Mari. It was quite evenly divided, but Kinyak may want to subjugate his two young nephews.
Tyuey does seem to have mastered Ukko – for now, anyway. He’s a kind of ‘loyal but determined opposition’ character: not a Hakon, more one who will use legal means (albeit tricksy ones) to make his presence felt. We haven’t seen the last of him!
And Barsbek? As with the ‘title bout’ of Barsbek v Saksa (where Barsbek was ahead on points when Saksa’s death stopped the fight), he remains a formidable opponent. As does Tyuey (who may not be the sovereign liege of Garðariki, but is as - or more - powerful than most independent rulers in the region).
All the boat targets seem to be beyond his grasp at the moment. But things can change … circumstances, alliance, council members and/or their attitudes. But Yudki does look the best prospect on offer for now. The Chernigovan stuff seems a bit iffy for now. Eilif is minded to let Tyuey and Barsbek have their little tiff then see where the cards fall …Yudki seems a solid target. If not him, then Eilif may strike at whoever has boats, if the council lets him
Those pesky Norns – Past and Present have been a real problem for him. Perhaps the Future will be better? Though watch out what you ask them for
:Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and howlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and howlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
A bit Macbethian though for young Eilif’s tastes, I think. Too, well, Hel-ish!
Best leave the future a mystery, perhaps: tempting the Fates never works well! ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Next session played, will come out in two parts. Some quite interesting events and action, near and far. Look out for Hakon making his presence felt … and the Fates intervening with characters close to home and in more distant climes.
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This I can answer with certainty. A truce only binds the instigator of the conflict, not their liege or vassals (in case of separate conflicts). Tyuey theoretically being forced into a truce would not adversely affect Eilif's ability to declare his own war on Barsbek, though since Tyuey is subject to the tribal "Call to War" mechanic it might affect whether or not he'd answer Eilif's summons.
I just checked: yes, I can banish him (as he's in prison) and it just costs 10 piety. So, Eilif gets his titles? Or at least the ones he's heir to (which I think is all of them, but I'd recheck to be sure)? But would Dyre still be able to plot from wherever he ends up and would he still retain claims on his old lands and his inheritance rights should something happen to Eilif? Would his wife join him, so he might produce heirs with claims as well?
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the following is from Wiki the Red:
If there's no tyranny involved (because he was plotting to kill you it's justified) then he just flees elsewhere with what amount of money he has and you as his heir get the titles. He'd most certainly keep plotting with what means he has, although certainly he'll have less means without a title and lands. Also he'll have his claims but he wouldn't have inheritence rights as far as I know. His claims will probably pass only one generation if he has any offspring and not to grandchildren. That can perhaps be prevented if you castrate him before banishment? I'm not sure if all culture groups can castrate but check if you can. Since it's not killing, it's not kinslaying.
Code:
Banishment is a diplomatic action which can be delivered to one's prisoners who are also direct subjects.
Banishing a character costs 10 piety. With DLC icon Conclave.pngConclave active, banishment may trigger a council vote.
Banishing a courtier
Banishing a courtier seizes their wealth and forces them to flee. However, the character retains their artifacts.
Banishing a direct vassal
Banishing a direct vassal forces them to abdicate all titles to their heir(s). They flee and retain their wealth.
Banishing vassals invokes tyranny. The penalty depends on the titles of the character you're banishing, generally -10 tyranny per title. Banishing brothers as a Muslim does not incur tyranny.
Banishment reasons
Some opinion modifiers that allow free imprisonment also allow banishment without a piety or tyranny cost. These include most opinion modifiers related to murder, murder attempts, or mutilation.If there's no tyranny involved (because he was plotting to kill you it's justified) then he just flees elsewhere with what amount of money he has and you as his heir get the titles. He'd most certainly keep plotting with what means he has, although certainly he'll have less means without a title and lands. Also he'll have his claims but he wouldn't have inheritence rights as far as I know. His claims will probably pass only one generation if he has any offspring and not to grandchildren. That can perhaps be prevented if you castrate him before banishment? I'm not sure if all culture groups can castrate but check if you can. Since it's not killing, it's not kinslaying.
I think that "hostile actions" (torture, mutilation, etc.) count as punishment, and thus immediately release the prisoner after being carried out. It's controlled by a game rule, but I think that's the default setting, and I don't think Bullfilter altered any of his game rule settings at the start.
In any case, it might be moot at this point anyway, since I think Dyre has already had at least one child to pass his claims down to.
Oh, so Eilif is still the heir because he has higher prestige etc and this is elective gavelkind? Then no need to castrate (even if it's available) and risking his release? Good point
Maybe that child can be won over and marry to someone close so the claims merge at one point if the child's a girl? Even if not I guess it'll just be a weak claim that'll go away anyway.
Very useful. The possibility of banishment will be discussed after the coming events (already played through) are reported in the next couple of chapters. I’m also thinking banishment may remove the imprisoned son penalty from the Queen Mother’s opinion of Eilif - and hopefully not be replaced with some lesser ‘banished son’ malus. Thus turning her back into a loyalist Councillor and therefore making it easier for the king to engineer a more malleable group (one more after that would get them to 50-50). Will address the heirs and castration bit further below.
No, didn’t change the game rules at the start. I’ll have a look at the hostile actions options available out of interest, but thought he might have needed the cruel trait as well to be able to exercise them, but I don’t know. But Dyre, while he had the ambition, did not have any heirs when he was imprisoned and I’m hoping the game doesn’t allow immaculate conceptions from prisoners locked in the oubliette! Certainly, Rurik’s castration in Italy resulted in his immediate release from jail, that being my only direct experience of the mechanic so far. It’s Eilif with the heir: the timing of Dyre’s imprisonment was in part to get him before he was able to multiply his line.
So, as above, as far as I can tell he’s heir on the gavelkind basis as Rurik’s only other surviving son, but that’s just me guessing! It would be interesting to test it out.Oh, so Eilif is still the heir because he has higher prestige etc and this is elective gavelkind? Then no need to castrate (even if it's available) and risking his release? Good point
Ah, must have gotten my wires crossed in my memory, then. Glad to clear that up.