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Sunforged General

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Nov 8, 2017
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Many people claim "WW2 was close" and without the US "Hitler would win" But the facts do not support this position. The British Empire and the Soviet Union had the industry, manpower, and resources, to destroy Germany, Italy, and their inconsequential European allies. So lets assume Japan bombs the US, The European axis do not declare war on the US, Britain does not declare war on Japan., and that turns into a limited war between the US and Japan alone. (as a side question, how fast do you think the US could have defeated Japan if the US gets to focus their entire forces and industrial production on the pacific?)

Now, point number one, the Soviets Defended Moscow in 1941, this was before any meaningful US lend lease arrived in Russia. So the even if the US sits out the war, Moscow does not fall, and the Germans lose their best chance of defeating the USSR.

Point number two, US lend lease food to Britain was a humanitarian effort to comfort the nutritionally vulnerable of Britain. But Britain would not collapse without this food. Same with all other lend lease to Britain, while the tanks and aircraft helped, they were not essential, Britain produced 50% more aircraft than Germany in 1940, in total Britain outproduced Germany in aircraft every year of the war except 1939 and 1944. The only thing Britain absolutely needed was destroyers to help defend British waters from U-boats. Britain got these in September 2, 1940, while the US was still neutral, and paid for these with basing rights to the US. If the US stays out of the war, Britain would still have these destroyers.

Point number three, if Britain does not get into a war with Japan, large numbers of Indian soldiers from the populous colony of British Raj can make it to Britain and Africa to partially make up for the lack of US ground troops helping out.

Point four, without US lend lease, the Soviets could indeed lose the Battle of Stalingrad, however, since huge amounts of US lend lease are not going up the Volga from allied occupied Iran, the Fall of Stalingrad is not very relevant except for propaganda reasons to the Nazis, and some morale loss to the Soviets. Due to German supply lines being past the breaking point, its doubtful Germany can hold Stalingrad into 1943, since the Germans in the city would be in a salient at risk of encirclement, and low on supplies. Army Group A would not reach Baku and its massive oilfields because the Caucasus mountains would form a formidable barrier, and the only way to Baku is a narrow strip of land with mountains on one side, and the coast of the Caspian sea on the other. If the Soviets fortify this pass, it would take months for Germany to breach it and would likely be forced to retreat before then.

Point five, Britain still wins in Africa, though later than happened in real life with American help. They would probably force the Axis out of North Africa by Summer of 1943, instead of spring 1943. The Soviets still go on the offensive in 1943, but dont make nearly as much gains as they did in our timeline. They probably only reach the Borders of Eastern Ukraine by the end of 1943, but none the less, Germany is being forced back. Germany launches a operation similar to Citadel around early 1944 to try to retake the initiative from the Soviets, but it turns into an attrition battle like Kursk and the Soviets ultimately win. British Troops land in Sicily around mid 1944 and Italy collapses.

Point six, by 1945, The British would be about 1/3 of the way up the Italian peninsula. Meanwhile the Soviets have reclaimed much of Ukraine and Belorussia. By this point, German defeat is obviously inevitable. By early 1946 the British Start making landings in France, and the Soviets would have taken eastern Poland and Romania. Germany quickly runs out of fuel and food, and the Soviets reach Berlin by August of 1946, meanwhile the British have liberated much of France with help from Free French forces. The British and Soviet forces would probably meet up along the Rhine river in western Germany, and the British only get the chance to invade far western parts of Germany.

To sum up my points, Germany was never going to be able to invade Britain, or knock out the USSR, save for a miracle. And thus the allies, even without the US, would always win through attrition, due to having more manpower and resources.
 
Stalemate due to mutual exhaustion is also possible.

And lend lease had major long term effects. Particularily motorization of Red Army, and aluminium and rubber supplies (US produced global majority of the former —like 2/3 of global supply in the peak year of 1943— and geared up to produce global majority of the latter after fall of SEA to Japanese). The reason Soviets were able to ditch wooden "wonders" like LaGG3 was due to free aluminium US shipped to them, the reason they could supply their long reaching late war offensives was US trucks helped by US tire supplies.
 
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Stalemate due to mutual exhaustion is also possible.

And lend lease had major long term effects. Particularily motorization of Red Army, and aluminium and rubber supplies (US produced global majority of the former and geared up to produce global majority of the latter after fall of SEA to Japanese).
In 1939, the British Raj had 377,800,000 people. Depending how many Soldiers the British can raise from the Raj before the Indians revolt, stalemate might not be possible for Germany, the British might be able to bring in millions upon millions of indian troops, since japan is not threatening India due to be at war with only the US and china.
 
In 1939, the British Raj had 377,800,000 people. Depending how many Soldiers the British can raise from the Raj before the Indians revolt, stalemate might not be possible for Germany, the British might be able to bring in millions upon millions of indian troops, since japan is not threatening India due to be at war with only the US and china.

Nah, I do not belive Britain is ever going to land in the continent without US, unless Soviets smother the Germans first. Other than air and naval war, British and British colonial manpower can be ignored for fighting purposes.

It's impossible for Japan to be at war with only US. They wanted Malaya and Dutch East Indies for resources, Philippines they mainly wanted because they were in the way.
 
Nah, I do not belive Britain is ever going to land in the continent without US, unless Soviets smother the Germans first. Other than air and naval war, British and British colonial manpower can be ignored for fighting purposes.

It's impossible for Japan to be at war with only US. They wanted Malaya and Dutch East Indies for resources, Philippines they mainly wanted because they were in the way.
Britain is the one who declared war on Japan after they bombed Pearl Harbor, lets assume for this scenario Britain does not do that, and Germany does not declare war on the US either.
 
Britain is the one who declared war on Japan after they bombed Pearl Harbor, lets assume for this scenario Britain does not do that, and Germany does not declare war on the US either.

In that case Japan declares war on Britain, or just invades them without declaration of war. Invading British colonies is literally part of the reason Japan went to war at all (the other one was to invade Dutch colonies). War with US could theoretically be averted, with Britain it could be not.
 
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Britain is the one who declared war on Japan after they bombed Pearl Harbor, lets assume for this scenario Britain does not do that, and Germany does not declare war on the US either.
Erm, you will find that Japan attacked Malaya ever so slightly before they attacked pearl harbour.
 
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Many people claim "WW2 was close" and without the US "Hitler would win" But the facts do not support this position. The British Empire and the Soviet Union had the industry, manpower, and resources, to destroy Germany, Italy, and their inconsequential European allies. So lets assume Japan bombs the US, The European axis do not declare war on the US, Britain does not declare war on Japan., and that turns into a limited war between the US and Japan alone. (as a side question, how fast do you think the US could have defeated Japan if the US gets to focus their entire forces and industrial production on the pacific?)

Now, point number one, the Soviets Defended Moscow in 1941, this was before any meaningful US lend lease arrived in Russia. So the even if the US sits out the war, Moscow does not fall, and the Germans lose their best chance of defeating the USSR.

Point number two, US lend lease food to Britain was a humanitarian effort to comfort the nutritionally vulnerable of Britain. But Britain would not collapse without this food. Same with all other lend lease to Britain, while the tanks and aircraft helped, they were not essential, Britain produced 50% more aircraft than Germany in 1940, in total Britain outproduced Germany in aircraft every year of the war except 1939 and 1944. The only thing Britain absolutely needed was destroyers to help defend British waters from U-boats. Britain got these in September 2, 1940, while the US was still neutral, and paid for these with basing rights to the US. If the US stays out of the war, Britain would still have these destroyers.

Point number three, if Britain does not get into a war with Japan, large numbers of Indian soldiers from the populous colony of British Raj can make it to Britain and Africa to partially make up for the lack of US ground troops helping out.

Point four, without US lend lease, the Soviets could indeed lose the Battle of Stalingrad, however, since huge amounts of US lend lease are not going up the Volga from allied occupied Iran, the Fall of Stalingrad is not very relevant except for propaganda reasons to the Nazis, and some morale loss to the Soviets. Due to German supply lines being past the breaking point, its doubtful Germany can hold Stalingrad into 1943, since the Germans in the city would be in a salient at risk of encirclement, and low on supplies. Army Group A would not reach Baku and its massive oilfields because the Caucasus mountains would form a formidable barrier, and the only way to Baku is a narrow strip of land with mountains on one side, and the coast of the Caspian sea on the other. If the Soviets fortify this pass, it would take months for Germany to breach it and would likely be forced to retreat before then.

Point five, Britain still wins in Africa, though later than happened in real life with American help. They would probably force the Axis out of North Africa by Summer of 1943, instead of spring 1943. The Soviets still go on the offensive in 1943, but dont make nearly as much gains as they did in our timeline. They probably only reach the Borders of Eastern Ukraine by the end of 1943, but none the less, Germany is being forced back. Germany launches a operation similar to Citadel around early 1944 to try to retake the initiative from the Soviets, but it turns into an attrition battle like Kursk and the Soviets ultimately win. British Troops land in Sicily around mid 1944 and Italy collapses.

Point six, by 1945, The British would be about 1/3 of the way up the Italian peninsula. Meanwhile the Soviets have reclaimed much of Ukraine and Belorussia. By this point, German defeat is obviously inevitable. By early 1946 the British Start making landings in France, and the Soviets would have taken eastern Poland and Romania. Germany quickly runs out of fuel and food, and the Soviets reach Berlin by August of 1946, meanwhile the British have liberated much of France with help from Free French forces. The British and Soviet forces would probably meet up along the Rhine river in western Germany, and the British only get the chance to invade far western parts of Germany.

To sum up my points, Germany was never going to be able to invade Britain, or knock out the USSR, save for a miracle. And thus the allies, even without the US, would always win through attrition, due to having more manpower and resources.
Point #1 : OK. As you stated the war is not over late 1941 though.
Point #2 : I have little knowledge of the food situation in the UK so maybe.
Point #3 : Yes, except that as clarified by other commenters the Japan attacked UK at the same time as the attack on PH- not the other way around.
Point #4 : The Fall of Stalingrad is not irrelevant because then the Soviets don't have access to the oil of Baku. Stalingrad is NOT a salient at risk of encirclement, since given the railroads if you hold Stalingrad you cut all contact between the Caucasus + Astrakhan (except through the Caspian sea). From Stalingrad, no risk to be attacked from the South (too isolated), nor from the East (wasteland), so the German army only has to face North.
It also eases a lot their supply situation, because they can quickly mop-up the rest of the Soviet Black Sea coast, and then transport stuff in the Black Sea without risk of getting sunk by submarines.
I think you underestimate how easy it is to defend the Caucasus against modern weapons when outnumbered and when the local civilians are really unhappy with you. In any case, maybe the Germans don't get the oil, but neither do the Soviet and the South is bottle up.

Point #5 : I am not sure why you claim that the English would defeat the Axis in Africa as soon as summer 1943. The British Army in Egypt received significant stuff from the Lend Lease, eg from memory more than half their tanks in El Alamein were LL, so...

Point #6 : I am not sure what makes you think that by 1945 the British would even be in Italy. or the Soviet would have reclaimed anything.
 
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Point #1 : OK. As you stated the war is not over late 1941 though.
Point #2 : I have little knowledge of the food situation in the UK so maybe.
Point #3 : Yes, except that as clarified by other commenters the Japan attacked UK at the same time as the attack on PH- not the other way around.
Point #4 : The Fall of Stalingrad is not irrelevant because then the Soviets don't have access to the oil of Baku. Stalingrad is NOT a salient at risk of encirclement, since basically given the railroads if you old Baku you cut all contact between the Caucasus + Astrakhan (except through the Caspian sea). From Stalingrad, no risk to be attacked from the South (too isolated), nor from the East (wasteland), so the German army only has to face North.
It also eases a lot their supply situation, because they can quickly mop-up the rest of the Soviet Black Sea coast, and then transport stuff in the Black Sea without risk of getting sunk by submarines.
I think you underestimate how easy it is to defend the Caucasus against modern weapons when outnumbered and when the local civilians are really unhappy with you. In any case, maybe the Germans don't get the oil, but neither do the Soviet and the South is bottle up.

Point #5 : I am not sure why you claim that the English would defeat the Axis in Africa as soon as summer 1943. The British Army in Egypt received significant stuff from the Lend Lease, eg from memory more than half their tanks in El Alamein were LL, so...

Point #6 : I am not sure what makes you think that by 1945 the British would even be in Italy. or the Soviet would have reclaimed anything.
For Point 3, Even if War with Japan is inevitable, Japan will never be strong enough to invade the British Raj, not while invading China and Fighting America. I still believe if pressed hard enough, the British could conscript million of Indians, and send many to Europe to fight there.

For Point 4, didnt the Soviets attack from the East and North to encircle the Germans at Stalingrad during Operation Uranus? So clearly the eastern route is not an impassible wasteland.
The Germans in Stalingrad would most definitely be in a Salient. And Soviet forces around Baku could be supplied by boats going across the Caspian sea, and could in turn send oil to the main part of the USSR. Hell Leningrad was nearly entirely encircled and the Soviets still managed to get supplies to it, by boat across lakes, or by truck once the lakes froze over, if they can do that, they can make use of the Caspian sea shipping to get supplies across.
 
For point #4, the Soviets could still move stuff along the Volga, which they would not with a German victory in Stalingrad. Even then the southern Pincer was wayyy smaller than the northern pincer and it only broke through in the South because the Romanians had allocated the very few AT guns they had disproportionnaly to their more exposed northern (Third) army rather than to the Southern (Fourth) army.

In a scenario without LL, then the Soviets don't have the time, tanks and transports to pull Uranus out, and they have even less the transport to operate in the wasteland East of the Volga.
 
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For point #3 : Then why didn't they do it ?
 
Japan attacked and declared war first by Japaneses newspapers. British responded by send war declare to Japan embassy. Whatever the British and Dutch have an alliance to defend each other in the East.

Stalingrad campaign was won by having the majority of German troops on Stalingrad when the Soviet attack several hundred km elsewhere. So if there were no battle on Stalingrad itself, the German can use troops to defend.

The British cannot use Indian troops because they promised independence for India in WW I but didn't. So in WW2 the Indian troops refused to fight! And the British had only limited "volunteered" troop (read: paid)
 
The British cannot use Indian troops because they promised independence for India in WW I but didn't. So in WW2 the Indian troops refused to fight! And the British had only limited "volunteered" troop (read: paid)
Indian soldiers produced the largest volume of volunteer soldiers in history. Over 2.5 million Indian men (and women) volunteered to fight for Britain in ww2. The vast majority of the working class indians didn't care about independence, it was a caste of upper class western educated Indians that wanted it.
 
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Point #5 : I am not sure why you claim that the English would defeat the Axis in Africa as soon as summer 1943. The British Army in Egypt received significant stuff from the Lend Lease, eg from memory more than half their tanks in El Alamein were LL, so...
I think you misunderstand lend lease hugely. It wasn't signed until mid 41 and much of the war fighting material didnt start arriving until mid 1942. It wasn't all one way either - British aid to the US totalled about 1/3 of US aid to Britain.

The vast majority of the 1000 tanks used by the UK in the second battle of Alamein (which precipitated victory in North Africa) were either British or having been purchased on the open market. Only about 200-250 of the Alamein tanks were lend-lease and provided by stripping them from US units. Further, the reason they featured most prominently in North Africa was because it was about the same length of voyage from the US to Africa as it was from the UK to Africa due to the need of travelling around the entire continent and not around the med.

The main allied shortage in 1942 was in landing craft and men. This, it made sense for America to arm British forces already in Africa rather than to army non-existing US forces in the UK and USA.
 
I can agree that the absence of lend-lease to the Soviets wouldn't have changed the pivotal battles in '42, but would very likely have left the Soviets with far more limited ability to conduct rapid offensives and maintain the pace of operations which they historically pulled off. Basically, the Eastern Front becomes a slow grind over several years before reaching Poland. I also don't see much chance of the UK pulling off successful landings in Europe without the participation of the Americans, although they would most likely finish driving the Italians from North Africa.

As said, MOST of India was not a reliable source of recruits, other than possibly a few of the minority groups such as those who later formed Pakistan and Bangladesh. The famed Gurkhas were from one such group. The UK was almost certainly going to find itself fighting the Japanese at some point, so diverting large numbers of troops to Europe is unlikely.

That pretty much indicates that either the war is going to grind down to a standstill while the Germans starve themselves to death, or else continue at a slow crawl with heavy casualties being suffered by all. Either way it would most likely end up with the Soviets in control of most of Europe, or some kind of negotiated settlement after the death of Hitler in which Germany gives up all or almost all of its gains in exchange for restoration of some semblance of the pre-war status quo. Germany cannot WIN the war even without direct US involvement, but they MAY be able to force a treaty in which they retain their pre-war borders, after everyone has gotten thoroughly disgusted with nearly a decade of constant bloodshed and bombardment. As long as Hitler is still alive, I can see no other ending than total defeat for Germany, regardless of the cost to the Allies/Soviets.
 
I think you misunderstand lend lease hugely. It wasn't signed until mid 41 and much of the war fighting material didnt start arriving until mid 1942. It wasn't all one way either - British aid to the US totalled about 1/3 of US aid to Britain.

The vast majority of the 1000 tanks used by the UK in the second battle of Alamein (which precipitated victory in North Africa) were either British or having been purchased on the open market. Only about 200-250 of the Alamein tanks were lend-lease and provided by stripping them from US units. Further, the reason they featured most prominently in North Africa was because it was about the same length of voyage from the US to Africa as it was from the UK to Africa due to the need of travelling around the entire continent and not around the med.

The main allied shortage in 1942 was in landing craft and men. This, it made sense for America to arm British forces already in Africa rather than to army non-existing US forces in the UK and USA.
Well, 20% to 25% of the tanks being land-lease is not neglectable and (I just wikipedia checked I admit) 50% of the Tanks or so were Americans so it all depends what the OP means by "no US involvement".



I can agree that the absence of lend-lease to the Soviets wouldn't have changed the pivotal battles in '42, but would very likely have left the Soviets with far more limited ability to conduct rapid offensives and maintain the pace of operations which they historically pulled off. Basically, the Eastern Front becomes a slow grind over several years before reaching Poland. I also don't see much chance of the UK pulling off successful landings in Europe without the participation of the Americans, although they would most likely finish driving the Italians from North Africa.
I believe no LL would have changed the pivotal battles in '42, as the Russians would have way less planes, way less tanks and way less trucks (including less indigenous tanks & planes, since they would have had to shift production).
It all depends on whether the Soviets STILL win Stalingrad even without LL.

I tend to discount any statement like "The Germans could not win the war". By 1944, the Soviets ran totally out of manpower and are calling 16 yo boys to the front (a situation later alleviated as they recruit in "liberated" territories). With less of, well, everything, they have way worse human losses over the war ; especially since the German industries does not take as much as a pounding from strategic bombardement, so it is possible that it ends up with a German victory.
 
I tend to discount any statement like "The Germans could not win the war". By 1944, the Soviets ran totally out of manpower and are calling 16 yo boys to the front (a situation later alleviated as they recruit in "liberated" territories).
By 1944, the Germans are doing the same desperate things for recruitment, and the Soviets are already driving forward toward the borders of the Reich itself. Yes, the Soviets are on the verge of being tapped out, but so are the Germans. At best, the Germans might have halted the advances for a while and negotiated for some kind of lenient peace terms by 1946 or '47. Meanwhile, the Germans are being bombed, blockaded and starved, outproduced, and out-reproduced by their opponents on BOTH fronts. That's not "winning the war", it's a temporary truce while both sides rearm and recover as best they can for the inevitable "next round" that Germany cannot even hope to do as well in.

The only thing preventing surrender was the continued existence of Hitler at the helm. The Allies would never allow the war to end with Hitler still in control, and Hitler would have exerted every last possible effort to his dying breath to maintain his control over the country and keep the conflict going to the inevitable end. Take Hitler out of the equation (either killed or deposed and turned over to the Allies or Stalin) and some kind of less-than-absolute surrender might have been possible, in which case Germany MIGHT have retained its former borders.
 
By 1944, the Germans are doing the same desperate things for recruitment, and the Soviets are already driving forward toward the borders of the Reich itself. Yes, the Soviets are on the verge of being tapped out, but so are the Germans. At best, the Germans might have halted the advances for a while and negotiated for some kind of lenient peace terms by 1946 or '47. Meanwhile, the Germans are being bombed, blockaded and starved, outproduced, and out-reproduced by their opponents on BOTH fronts. That's not "winning the war", it's a temporary truce while both sides rearm and recover as best they can for the inevitable "next round" that Germany cannot even hope to do as well in.

The only thing preventing surrender was the continued existence of Hitler at the helm. The Allies would never allow the war to end with Hitler still in control, and Hitler would have exerted every last possible effort to his dying breath to maintain his control over the country and keep the conflict going to the inevitable end. Take Hitler out of the equation (either killed or deposed and turned over to the Allies or Stalin) and some kind of less-than-absolute surrender might have been possible, in which case Germany MIGHT have retained its former borders.
We are talking of a case without US. It also means :
- WAY less strategic bombing of Germany (and of Romania) - which means a way higher production of war materials with the fuel to run it, up to a point where the Germans may win the air "Battle of Germany" versus only the English planes.
- Way less opposition from the Soviets, so less losses.
- Italy (and Romania) kept in the war on the correct side, and hopefully for the Germans taking their share of the losses, or at least their share of occupation forces,
- Possibly, no Finland reading the writing in the wall and not going all-in on Leningrad,
- No second front,

If the Germans take Stalingrad, they don't lose hundred of thousands of men in the pocket (they still lose an awful lot in the battle of course), they have a frontline that starts to get smaller (since it becomes "Caspian Sea-to-Finland"), they have more of everything and the Soviets less of everything, etc...
So yes, in that case, given how bad the manpower reserves were for the Soviets in 1944 even though they had the Americans on their side I would say that the Germans could win it.
And it is exactly the reason why the Americans intervened with the LL.