The Seventeenth Þing of Eilif’s Reign – The ‘Big Þing’ of August 904 (a summary of advice from Chapter 84)
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General Comments
On gaining piety:
Which can be gained by making war on infidels, just saying
Haha, by raiding and sacking heathen temples, too, I gather. Plus the cash and prestige …
So if we don't want to take Kiev (or whatever province that is, the triangular one) from Hungary, we can go for Ugra...
Barsbek is waging a war to take Kiev at the moment. I’m thinking I might wait for his flame to flare and then burn out, then perhaps pick up the pieces when his succession implodes his fiefdom. Focus for now on religious reform, consolidation and slow empire building, more to the north or in the margins (ie to the east, bordering on Mari) as opportunities arise. I
think.
sometimes women that would not agree to join your court agrees to be a concubine so you can leave that field as "any". So textbox:genius, married:no, adult:yes, gender:women, religion:my group, diplorange:yes would be my filter. Sometimes there aren't many (or any). When you look for non adult ones, are there any close to being adult?
Useful, thanks – I’ll save that as a search. I didn’t know about the textbox search parameter – I’d been manually scrolling through when looking for specific attributes (ie genius, quick, poets, mystics etc).
By the way, how come do we have only 1 Jarldom title? I thought we had more. If they're not all owned by some vassals, creating and keeping them would be a good use of money (since keeping titles are a very good source of prestige). Not urgent, can be done even after a succession decades later (since feudalism and empire should be our top priorities now) but should be done at one point.
Well, only ever had the one to start with, those conquered since at that level were subjugated. Haven’t created any yet, but with the size of the realm now, doing so is coming onto the cards. How will owning the extra Jarldom titles (if Eirikr keeps them) work for inheritance/succession? Better, worse or neutral? Or should I be creating them for trusted vassals instead, to make them loyal and consolidate the realm more efficiently?
Considering how things were at the start of Eilif's tenure things could not look better.
I was thinking the same: he seems to have done pretty well in the time he has been King, given the immediate situation he inherited (though the fundamentals were still fairly strong).
And so Naumadal falls to Eilif. Now is the time to build on this victory, and work towards a prosperous, united future.
I’ll need that once the Aztecs and Mongols start arriving and creating their chaos!
If I make it that far.
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Ch84 Q1: Eirikr and Nephew Björn. Any advice or implications to be aware of here? If Björn becomes Jarl early, is he prevented from acting on his claim to Garðariki directly until he is 16 (over ten years away)? Any other suggestions or pointers deemed relevant to considerations here, or precautions Eilif should take if he makes the move? Should he even consider accidentally on purpose having the young Björn overbalance and drown in a vat of Malmsey wine?
Good thinking sending the marshal there already. Since this is a weak claim, something extraordinary must be going on in order to Bjorn to be able to press it. He cannot just start a claim war like that. He only can if a regency is ruling Gardariki, or the title is already being contested, or the king is somehow incapacitated, or Bjorn is already 2nd/3rd in line to inherit. Other than those it's just a cause for him to hate you and nothing else. Not the best thing but not the worst.
Bjorn can't plot or start a faction while underage for his claim, but others can, but they can do that whether he is Jarl or not. He is not restricted from starting a war, but, as mentioned above, if all he has is a weak he can't press it unless someone else is already contesting your claim or you are are hiding or incapable or dead and the Kingdom is ruled by a regent. Even then, Bjorn's own regent and council will most likely prevent him from declaring war unless Bjorn is significantly stronger than you.
I've never seen a vassal outright declare war for his claim, they go the faction way. And as long as Björn isn't of age, he can't form or join a faction (others might for his claim though).
OK, thanks guys, this clarifies it. Unlikely then, but always be alert for exceptions or left-field circumstances, I guess.
Concerning the case of his untimely demise... It is likely that Eilif would inherit everything should the af Munsös kick the bucket...
Though it might take three children. Does Eilif have the stocmach for that?
In-game, he probably wouldn’t, unless the stakes were so high and the likelihood of success good enough such that the temptation became too great to resist. I suspect though it looks like there will be other ways to resolve the issue of Eirikr & sons.
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Ch84 Q2: Killing the Bloody Bishop. 7
2% plot power doesn’t seem decisive to me, but this would be my first ever attempted CK2 murder, so clearly I’m in new territory with this. I haven’t clicked the button yet, but plan to do so when the next session starts. Is that when I get to see who might be invited to join in? Any views on the plot power starting point or for prosecuting it once it begins?
I realized now that after all that time playing CK2, I never attempted this as well. Let's see how this works
Then I should probably go ahead, even if success is doubtful, just for the learning experience! I can always call it off if it is going nowhere.
You neee 100% plot power really, and to be honest you want it to be higher than that. The more people you invite, the larger the chance people will find out you are behind it. But you do need quite a few people to kill people generally. Unless you and your spymaster are super spies.
The initial plot power is just what it says.
The possible plot power includes people who can be invited right now (but not those who will join after you give them a gift).
So you can probably get the plot power above 100% after clicking the button. The intrigue menu will give you a list of possible supporters.
OK then, I won’t know for sure who can be added to the plot until I start it. At least I have some money now to encourage any would-be co-conspirators who may need financial persuasion.
hmmmm...who decides the Bishop Sigbjörn's replacement? Murdering him to have another person become Bishop isn't going to help you.
It seems the consensus is (even if I’m not in a position to appoint one myself depending on how things go with the impending confrontation with Eirikr) that it should be a Norse Germanic successor.
it is worth checking the traits of those that you ask to join your plots, drunkards tend to blab it out, for example. Other bad traits could be arbitrary, lunatic, probably honest and kind? Not really sure, but i mostly go by common sense.
Sounds like good advice, thanks. Though for the BB, I may not have too many potential plotters (if any) to be too choosy! But I will look at traits to gauge the risk.
About Eirikr and the bishop, maybe when Eirikr is imprisoned, stripped of titles or banished we might also have a more direct way of replacing him? Also, his demesne provinces are all rich and coastal. Mouthwatering really to replace Pskov and 2 heathen shipbuilding provinces with. I'm guessing Naumadal would eventually go for a religious vassal or something?
I guess I’d need religious revocation enacted if such circumstances (which could be a bit lucky if they do occur) arise.
The 72% is youu trying to murder him alone. As soon as others join it will go up. You want to limit how many join, but want to get over 100%. Once you start the plot, you can press the "+" to see who is available to join the plot. You can change the order and view the people by plot strength they would add to the plot, pick the least number to get over 100. Some will join immediately, others may need a bribe (the little handout symbol), and some will refuse no matter what.
Very useful, thanks.
Well if the depraved is removed ... then you can appoint the next bishop or Godi ...
Or would that be Eirikr’s successor (eg his son)? And I’d have to wait for the BB to die first?
It doesn't seem like you'll be able to get him. Plots can fire under 100%, but do so very rarely. And there shouldn't be too many prospective plotters you can invite - Eirikr and his landed vassals, none of whom hate Sigbjörn, thanks to his sympathy for Christians.
On the other hand, once he dies he'll be replaced by someone adhering to his liege's faith and culture, so a good Germanic Norseman.
As above, I may just have a go at killing him just to test it all out. If for example an opportunity to replace him
without murder occurs before any plot is able to succeed, I could call it off and do that instead. I’m curious to see whether any of his entourage are willing to join in and under what circumstances. Though that review of him did stir my sympathy (and Eilif’s) just a little bit. I don’t think he’s doing a great deal of harm there for now (I still have my three holy sites under control, I suppose it just affects Germanic moral authority a little, but that’s pretty healthy at present]. Hmmm … do I try to off him or not? I’ll leave the decision to Eilif, as I’m not sure myself. I might even toss a coin …
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Ch84 Q3: Dismissing Levies, Tribal Army and a New War. A technical question here: some have advocated going straight on to another way, using the remaining tribal army troops (now down to about 1,700+ in strength) to roll onto a new conquest. But, if I were to do that, to declare war I’d have to disperse the levies still on foreign territory. This would result in just over half of the 1,250 levies in Hålogaland being lost – a significant dent in the royal levy base, that would take a long time to recover. There is no such problem with the troops in Austerbotn. And if I give them time to get to Naumadal for a safe dispersal, I assume I’d lose the tribal army as soon as I restart the game. Is all that correct? If so, it doesn’t seem like that good a bargain to me. It would be a serious consideration when looking at ‘next steps’ (more on that later).
:/ seems so, and yes seems like a bad bargain. I'm also taking a mental note to pull all troops on friendly territory before negotiating peace if i'm inclined on using event troops for multiple wars.
That's right, as soon as a day without a war passes, the tribal army will disband.
As I thought, but more on this below with the related question on a possible revolt by Eirikr. Of course, he may be captured (fair chance of that) or flee to exile, so this circumstance may still arise. It would then (before un-pausing after moving against Eirikr) become a matter of peace and raiding vs keeping the band for another border war that wouldn’t trigger a pact reaction. More on that further below too.
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Ch84 Q4: Eirikr, Arrest, Possible Revolt and status of the Tribal Army. I’m pretty much convinced to go for this, pending advice on that earlier question re his son Björn and that weak claim he holds on the Garðarikian crown. A technical question here: if I move to arrest Eirikr and he declares war, does that mean my still-mustered levies in Hålogaland remain mustered? And what about the tribal army: would this count as another war (if it happens as I un-pause the game) and would they stay for that? Or does it either not count for that, or perhaps they would disappear in between me ordering Vihavald to perform the arrest and its resolution (one way or the other)?
Missed this question. Yes this is correct.
Thanks.
This is quite an edge case and I don't have concrete information but only gut feeling that Eirikr would take some time to declare war (not instant) so the tribal army might just disappear but sometimes it takes the tribal army a day or so to disappear so who knows? About levies, I guess they'll stay mustered since it isn't you starting a war.
I think this is clarified further in discussion below.
Before disband it, you could move your army to his country, then try to arrest him, if you succed, fine, if you don't he'll raise his troops in revolt... and they'll find your troops ready for them, easy win.
But I’d need to be at war with someone to keep the tribal army mustered. I guess it could work though with the levy that’s still up in Norway … delay a little, get them south to Uppland, then go for the arrest. But then waiting would mean I lose the tribal army in the meantime if he does revolt. My brain hurts!
If a revolt starts while your event troops are still active, they should stay for the next war, not disband when you peace out the first war. You only need to dismiss troops if you are starting a new war, not when being attacked.
Excellent.
I wonder if the revolt can happen quick enough so that the tribal armies also stay or that ship has already sailed
If he revolts, then the tribal army will remain. As well as your levies as long as you don't tell them to disband. Garðariki seems very well-placed to deal with that inner problem now.
Do you think Eirikr would rebel within the day?
Yes - if someone rejects imprisonment, he revolts the same day.
That’s great, we get to keep the tribal armies as well! And after crushing him we can replace the bishop, take his rich demesne and make it ours, and still get to declare war for one more province in the empire of rus
Nice, thanks for thrashing that one out, guys. Eilif will find it useful when considering the timing of an attempted arrest.
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Ch84 Q5: Orsha for Grimr? This seems like a good proposition to me, but after having messed this up previously I formally seek the advice of the Þing on both the county to cede and whether Grimr is a good choice to give it too. I don’t think it would make him too powerful, and in any case he would be very loyal. And he’s one of the minority of Norse Germanic vassals in the Garðarikian half of the realm.
Sounds like a good idea
One vote in favour.
If he become a loyalist maybe you could have enough votes for the 'religious title revocation' law and solve the Bloody Bishop issue?
And another. And yes, whether its for religious revocation or something else, I’m really keen to get another loyalist in the Council.
This ties into your additional question below on changing to Low Centralization, if you switch to low, you can keep it. If you want to increase Grimr power as a fellow Norse germanic, you can create a Jarldom for him and move some non- norse germanics under him to reduce your vassal limit and increase norse germanic influence in Gardaki.
I’ll explore the Jarldom option too, which had occurred to me (I think from recollection it can be fairly costly, and until recently I’ve been pretty short of funds, so hadn’t really considered it. He’s already on Council, so the ‘powerful vassal wants Council position’ malus wouldn’t apply. And I guess it would make him love Eilif even more!
He's a good choice. Though you are also right in that he definitely is a hel worshipper, so that's something to consider.
Yes, though as long as he doesn’t turn into a werewolf and eat Styrkar, or do something horrible to the royal family, I suppose it's not an insurmountable problem?
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Ch84 Q6: Where to Next? There you have it: the war with Olafr has been won and the fork in the road reached. Any thoughts, views or advice re Eilif’s next moves (personal or strategic) are welcome. My intention for some time has been to now consolidate and go as quickly as possible for the reform of the faith, before something awful happens to Eilif, the realm splinters and the chance passes. If he can also eventually found an empire before shuffling off, great. Same with achieving feudalism. But this is something achievable I feel he should reach for now – in game terms, but also as part of the Rurikid dynastic roleplay/narrative. Established at the very start of the AAR. And raiding still involves plenty of Blood and Battle!
I still say one more province (from the de jure empire of Rus) before raiding but it depends on the status of the seemingly only available target (Ugra). After that deal with Eirikr, the blot, the hunt, the raiding... all fun and games ahead
Ugra is not in the pact at the moment – but it’s a long way for the tribal army to get over there and not that big a prize. And (as long as a check doesn’t reveal they’d be able to call on a tribal or defensive religious army of their own) then I’m not sure I’d need the current tribal army (now only 1,700 men after casualties in the last couple of wars) to take them down.
IMHO raiding is the way to go, it would solve a lot of your problems, it give you money, prestige, piety, maybe some guests for the next Blot (more piety) and possibly some noble concubine that give prestige and sons with claims on foreign lands. Also, is fun.
Agree!
As touched on below, with three Kingdom titles while still tribal, you may want to reform to become Flykir or else create a custom Empire in order to keep all three kingdoms together, no matter who inherits.
Two kingdoms and a Jarldom at present, but I think your advice remains true. Definitely want to reform the faith first, then see if there’s time to get to an empire in Eilif’s lifetime. If there isn’t, then I guess I just have to try to build the successor to be strong enough to retake Sweden after a potential succession split. Could be interesting!
Dealing with the Depraved should take priority as it's a good opportunity to do so. Then perhaps go raid some Christians around Brabant, and bring home enough prisoners for a full blòt. Maybe also find a nice concubine on the way...
Short-time peace could be a good idea. Though you could also join Olafr in his defence against Luxembourg, gathering some piety along the way and keep MA high. After a good blòt, Garðariki should be able to wage some parallel conquest wars as long as the targets are well-picked.
This has been Eilif’s thinking of late. Blot and hunting season is approaching and there are still a good few prisoners, including that captured missionary, to sacrifice to the Gods, even without more prisoners from more raiding.
A general supplementary question to all: to gain piety from executing Heathen clerics, does it have to be at a blot? Or can it just be done at any time?
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Ch84 Q7: Hakon. I know I have limited ability to do much to/with Hakon, but now that he’s back in the realm, I have an uneasy feeling. Any thoughts on what to do with/to him? Or do I let him go until he gives cause for intervention? As far as I can see, he is no longer trying to kill Sölvi Sverkersson either, though they remain rivals, as does Hakon with Eilif. Maybe that plot stopped when he was imprisoned?
I'd just ignore him until he's up to something. It's not like that he's able to do much anyway.
I wouldn't worry about him. too much. The biggest threats are him starting, or joining, a plot to kill you.
I'm glad to see him alive. Perhaps he'll go on another adventure someday!
Either way, I wouldn't worry too much. It's right that his plot ended due to the imprisonment, and until he starts plotting again he's harmless. Not to say that there probably won't be too many joining his plot as they'd need a better opinion of him than of Eilif.
Pretty clear there: let him go for now and see if he hangs himself with the rope provided. One could hope he’s learned his lesson, but …
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Other Legal Question for all: Also, while I was looking, I checked the other available legal options. Raising Tribal Organisation to Medium (a precursor to longer term adoption of Feudalism, I understand) is still firmly opposed but all except good old Buðli. But I'd never got around to raising Centralisation to Low - and everyone would approve that. Doing that would allow me one extra demesne title (currently 9/8) but of course decrease my vassal limit by 5 (currently 20/21). I could of course prune back the number of direct vassals by allocating them out or creating a new duchy/jarldom level title for someone, but with a large realm I think the vassal limit seems more important than the demesne limit - or am I wrong in current circumstances? Given this, of the three, which would people recommend me trying to pursue now? NB: I think there's a five or ten year delay between permitted realm legal changes, or is that only in each section of the laws? I think we've discussed it before, but I rarely do these so can't remember!
I'm not sure if the delay is for the entire screen or for each section, so just to be on the sure side we should focus on tribal organization. I think that is co-most important thing we need to do together with conquering land from the de jure empire of Rus. Keeping centralization as it is now is good I guess.
This has been my general thinking to date, though religious revocation could be useful; would be in-character for a king looking to reform the religion and spread it through the realm (especially the Slavic and Suomi bits); and looks more attainable in the short term, whereas increased organisation might take a long time to get Council support for. Hmm.
Going for low centralization will allow you to keep all your current holdings and you can create Jarls or transfer vassalages to deal with vassal limit, which will also incease select Jarls' opinion of you and possibly remove some count-level troublemakers by putting them under Jarls so you don't have to deal with them. Also low centralization will pass, and the changes may make it easier to pass the next law in 10 years.
That’s an interesting perspective. Do I need more centralisation to be able to create those titles and tranfer vassalages (I thought I could do those now), or were you saying the increased centralisation can be better managed by doing those things? I don’t know the system well enough yet to be able to read the nuance.
As for centralisation laws, most people prefer the upper range for various reasons. You need to begin to cut back on vassals and make a few powerful ones rather than managing loads of tiny ones. Make a few duchies, give them out to people of the culture and religion you favour, and people of those cult/relig who have good stats. Then increase centralisation. Going to need it for future, more powerful laws and no large realm will survive the mid-game at low centralised status.
Another case for maybe going centralisation now after all? Can I afford to wait another ten years for either the increased organisation or religious revocation?
Always ten years between law changes, no matter which ones. Thus it takes at least twenty years before you can think of adopting feudalism if tribal centralization passes each time. Considering that law, unreformed pagans reject it while reformed ones don't care, so that's to keep in mind.
Centralization is always good as long as you can delegate to enough vassals. The lower number of stronger vassals is kept in check with your higher demesne income in everything if you play your cards right.
Then again, if you can get enough men to agree on religious revocation law, then the Slavs and Mordvins are no longer a problem. Though you may have to wage a war for that.
That’s a very interesting and useful point about reformed pagans being keener on the increased organisation (was that what you were saying, rather than centralisation?). Perhaps I should wait until Eilif can (hopefully) get that reform done (hoping it doesn’t take too long) rather than pulling a legal trigger on something else then having to wait another ten years to start the feudalism path. Because if empire looks like it might not be achievable in time, then feudalism might be the alternative for succession woes. And religious revocation wars would be in-character once a reformation was achieved - choice, choices!
And another supplementary question: if Eilif could enact feudalism before he dies, what is the status of the second kingdom title (Sweden) in that case? Does it still splinter, or stay with a single heir? Or do I have to change the inheritance laws separately in that realm as well? I think I’ve tried looking for a screen or button that would allow me to do that and haven’t been able to find it, so am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that the current inheritance laws for Garðariki apply to Sweden as well, including if they were changed.
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Succession Musings: And, while I was at it checking the laws, I had a look at the major succession lines for Eilif's three main titles. From previous discussions, if Styrkar inherits Sweden, he's almost certain to declare independence (without an overarching Empire title having been established by then), correct? Buðli should get both Garðariki and the 'home' Holmgarðr titles. So (if it turns out that way) could then probably wage a war to reclaim Sweden (which he is next in line to inherit). Of course, this could all change over time, for a variety of reasons.
On the likelihood of Styrkar inheriting Sweden then breaking away:
I don't know how certain, but there's a big possibility.
Seems (from below) it may be a certainty under current laws.
As it stands now, Strykar will be independent immediately on Eilif's death, in CK2 a king can't be a vassal to another king. So need to bribe and manipulate the vote to get Budli on top for Sweden as well, or get your Empire-level title before you die to keep Sweden a vassal.
I don't think it works like that. In elective gavelkind, the top level titles are, as far as I know, divided equally between heirs. So bribing wouldn't work in this case.
OK.
The issue of elective gavelkind. Gavelkind, but even worse. Get an emperor title before you die or the kingdoms will go seperate ways after PC death.
See above question, re whether that still applies if we can go feudal and change the realm succession laws, short of being an empire.
The more sons Eilif has, the worse it will get with elective gavelkind. But for now, brotherless Styrkar could still be able to inherit everything should he win the vote. Reformation and getting rid of elective gavelkind for the normal one would definitely place him as sole heir. You'll have to get rid of Eirikr if you want to change the succession law, in any case.
So I’m a bit reluctant at present to get more concubines and possibly start complicating inheritance with more sons. I also refer to my clarifying question above, re the auto-creation of the Swedish kingdom and risk of splitting (and whether it is eliminated) if a can go to feudalism and change the inheritance laws before Eilif dies.
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So, a
Big Þing this time! Many questions of all kinds as we come to something of a watershed in the realm’s development. I told you guys I'd soon be right out of my comfort zone again! Thank you all so very much for the advice, discussion and support. It is truly invaluable.
As to what course Eilif takes with some of these more finely balanced decisions … well, I’m about to start the next play session and you will find out when I write it up. Given I’m walking the tightrope of an Ironman game, there will be that extra bit of tension as I try not to click the wrong button in the wrong sequence! Wish me luck!
